[00:00] (emil^^) i.e. i really can't stand hillary clinton - but i dotn think she's anti- patriotic - just well dumb

[00:00] (US-Male) dub your router needs fixed
[00:00] (dub`) for shitting on Paul the moron
[00:00] (Doobshaw) Mitt Romney is a fake voice.
[00:00] (Doobshaw) He'll never be president
[00:00] (eifer) how is ron paul a moron? =\
[00:00] (dub`) US-Male its fixed
[00:00] (US-Male) kewl
[00:00] (dub`) was just on the wrong port
[00:00] (dub`) that vpx was doing it
[00:01] (US-Male) yeah
[00:01] (Doobshaw) I don't think any republican can win the presidency. The Fox News Torture debate is going to haunt them for all time.
[00:01] (emil^^) mitt romney i really dont know much about - that guys is well.....kind a unknown........
[00:01] (US-Male) so feel free to take a dump on Ron Paul =)
[00:01] (emil^^) doobshaw - i think guiliani does have a chance to be honest
[00:01] * dub` is now known as bud`
[00:02] (eifer) wow I haven't been to stormfront.org in a while
[00:02] (eifer) those people are so crazy
[00:02] (Doobshaw) Torture is so wrong.. that it's pulic for republicans means they can't win
[00:02] (bud`) US-Male its just too bad that slice of political thought cant produce a good speaker
[00:02] (emil^^) guiliana has some integreity - that is something that all save obama or hillary lack
[00:02] (US-Male) bud`: yup
[00:03] (Doobshaw) The Fox news debate condemned republicans to having support "double guantanamo" and other such nonsense and inhumane posturing.
[00:03] (bud`) Doobshaw whats wrong with gitmo
[00:03] (US-Male) I say we waterboard Pelosi
[00:03] (bud`) just so we can validate your point here
[00:03] (Doobshaw) If there's anything at all wrong with it that's a reason to lessen it, not "double" it
[00:03] (US-Male) I say we waterboard Pelosi and quadruple Gitmo
[00:04] (eifer) wow they all support ron paul on stormfront
[00:04] (US-Male) octuple it !
[00:04] (Doobshaw) heh
[00:04] (bud`) Doobshaw fine, but first you have to explain whats wrong with it
[00:04] (eifer) doesn't make sense
[00:04] (Doobshaw) us-male lol
[00:04] (emil^^) doobshaw, bah - welcome to real life - torture isn't he answer.......i think we all know tho - but blaring slayer or for christs sake even gwen stefani isn't tortue - there is a number of ways we go about to obtain information
[00:04] (eifer) he's so far some socialist
[00:04] (US-Male) heh
[00:04] (bud`) WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa GITMO
[00:04] (bud`) =P
[00:04] (bud`) doesnt give you an unchallenged forum
[00:05] (US-Male) man, I wonder if Ron Paul really wants support from the "911 Truthers" and stormfront
[00:05] (Doobshaw) Republicans can have alll the best policies and ideas for being president, but they are now hamstrung by W bush and torture
[00:05] (bud`) TORTURE!
[00:05] (US-Male) Doobshaw: you're thinking about this all wrong
[00:05] * bud` slaps some panties on US-Male's head.
[00:05] (US-Male) torture != bad
[00:05] (emil^^) doobshaw on that i agree...yes we have the bush issue - who is not well liked in the polls, that is why i think someone like guiliana is an answer to the rep's
[00:05] (US-Male) I dig panties on my head
[00:06] (US-Male) people in NYC pay good money for that
[00:06] (emil^^) bush didnt' do what was well liked - and he hasn't played his cards that well for selling such an unpopular war.....
[00:07] (US-Male) anyway now when I hear "torture" it only means the person had to wear a leash, right ?
[00:07] (US-Male) maybe an asspile at most
[00:07] (Doobshaw) Beyond the election, I worry about our country, and what people think about us when presidential candidates are openly calling for "enhanced interrogation techniques" or whatever the hell they are calling torture. You keep that shit on the downlow. You down broadcast it.
[00:07] (US-Male) lessons of Abu Graib
[00:07] (nharris) Butt Pyramids are big business here in SF
[00:07] (bud`) look, amerikka plucked harmless people off the streets, just minding their own business, and flew them half way around the world, just to MAYBE place panties on their heads. get with the program here. this is torture
[00:07] (US-Male) Doobshaw: so they should lie more than they do now ?
[00:07] (US-Male) bud lol
[00:08] (emil^^) doobshaw - we're no egypt......and as far as totrure goes - we dont do that, it's a game fo semantics - i guess playing music really loud and sleep deprevation is very inhumane.........i dont think we do things like this lightly
[00:08] (nharris) I get worse abuse at the local McDonald's here than those prisoners got at Abu Grahib
[00:08] (US-Male) lol
[00:08] (Doobshaw) I guess it's better than drooling over ever opportunity to say "I love torture".. that's why no republican can win... it's too evil
[00:08] (US-Male) well, good night
[00:08] (US-Male) hasta la vista
[00:09] (emil^^) doobshaw - the deal is we do have veyr effective means to get info from those who have clearly stated they want americans to die..........and we dont tie testicles to car batteries
[00:09] (emil^^) sleep deprivation yeah it has to suck - but i would hardly call that torture
[00:09] (Doobshaw) yeah that isn't supposed to be a presidential debating topic.
[00:10] (Doobshaw) I guess W fucked it up
[00:10] (nharris) looks like XM is back up.. knock wood
[00:11] (patch6) Ron Paul can't really choose who he gets support from, and he didn't claim that 9/11 was an inside job himself
[00:11] (bud`) id have no prob tying nuts to batteries or even transformers if the douchebag was blowing up women kids and troops
[00:11] (bud`) waaa waaaaaa
[00:11] (emil^^) to call waht the u.s. does when it comes to questioning as 'torture' is a slap in the face for the few who lived though pol pot, or sadaam hussian
[00:11] (emil^^) i't like saying the holocaust was just a minor matter..............there is no comparison
[00:12] (Doobshaw) Mitt romney wants to double guantanamo. last I checked he doesn't have the clearance to even know what they do there.
[00:12] (patch6) maybe he can put jack bauer in charge of it too
[00:12] (nharris) yep.. any soldier who violates rules of engagement forfeits his right to be spared torture.
[00:12] (bud`) Doobshaw lol wait until he does!
[00:12] (Doobshaw) good lord
[00:12] (nharris) Kiefer will straighten this shit out.. AND slap the liberals into shape at the same time
[00:12] (emil^^) hey i dont care much for mitt, but well - seriously - be honest plz - guantanamo is a place where those who have clearaly fought against our country are housed
[00:13] (bud`) ahhh jihad defense lawyers and lefties. the enemey of your enemy is your friend
[00:13] (bud`) only 2 people procaliming torture
[00:13] (emil^^) to keep them from sleeping - is not the same at all
[00:13] (bud`) with no evidence
[00:13] (Doobshaw) We'll see.
[00:13] (emil^^) we'll see - what do you mean by that?
[00:13] (Doobshaw) USA will be strong again
[00:14] (Doobshaw) my prediction
[00:14] (nharris) woe is me..someone peed on my bible.. and gave me the smallest piece of cheesecake! thank god I've got USA's liberals looking out for me :)
[00:14] (Doobshaw) I think we can elect responsible people.
[00:14] (Doobshaw) I am not convinced
[00:14] (bud`) HAHAHA
[00:14] (emil^^) doobshaw - sure we can - but if someone is out to kill the u.s. and cleary is proud to state that he wants to kill americans - yes he/she will be questioned
[00:15] (Doobshaw) yeah that's not a topic for presidential candidates to get bloodthirsty over
[00:15] (bud`) the general ignorance and bigotry present in the USA population guarantees you will not see a responsible person elected
[00:15] (emil^^) and i'm sure they are thankfully to allah they they are not in egypt for questioning
[00:15] (bud`) primarily from the LEFT
[00:15] (nharris) amen bud
[00:16] (bud`) Bush may well be the last straight-up person we see for some time
[00:17] (emil^^) tho i do admit at times - when we have a key person who we know has information pertinentant to our country - we prolly do give them over to countries who have thier own questioning techniques - i really dont care for this......but i dont doubt this is a reality
[00:17] (bud`) 80+% wanted the war
[00:17] (nharris) alright.. let's see how much American Airlines wants to widen my anus for a trip this June
[00:17] (Doobshaw) I think HIllary Clinton is not to be trusted.
[00:18] (emil^^) doobshaw - i pray to god obama wins the dem election - hillary - wow
[00:18] (Doobshaw) Hillary is unelectable. If she wins anything outside of new york, I'm confused. They'll have to run Bill Clinton more than Hillary in the final month
[00:18] (emil^^) guiliani - obama is an election i could live with - hillary - would make me vote for even a daley type character
[00:19] (Doobshaw) Giuliani is OK to me, but I think he's too much of a self-starting autocrat
[00:19] (emil^^) well he's rather mainstream - not hard core pandering to either side - i can respect that
[00:20] (Doobshaw) mainsream.. whatever.. Abortion isn't an issue for me
[00:20] (emil^^) well - guiliani only stated he thinks states should make their own choice when it come to abortion
[00:20] (Doobshaw) Giuliani would beat Hillary
[00:20] (emil^^) states rights is something i can be proud of
[00:21] (Doobshaw) but Giuliani can't win the democratic nomination
[00:21] (Doobshaw) I mean republican
[00:21] (emil^^) doomshaw - i dunno - he's up now on hte polls, mccain for example is bush-lite
[00:21] (Doobshaw) Hillary isn't to be trusted. I know that
[00:22] (Doobshaw) What kind of principles does a woman have who sticks with Bill Clinton
[00:22] (emil^^) hillary is a sell out yes
[00:22] (emil^^) imho - no offense to those here who may have issues with me saying that - sorry
[00:22] (Doobshaw) sell out? whatever. She's sold out long ago
[00:23] (emil^^) obama is the only dem imho which has a chance to make the dems win (and that's reallys aying a lot - beating bush is as hard as the reps beating kerry)
[00:23] (emil^^) bush didnt' win in 04 kerry lost
[00:24] (emil^^) in 08 - guiliana has a chance......but if mccain gets the nod - it's not mccain winning........mccain can only loose cuz he's a bush clone
[00:25] (emil^^) guiliani gives the reps a chance - same as how obama gives the dems a chance - that is a battle i would like to see
[00:25] (Doobshaw) I don't think any republican can win. I don't see how any one can vote for hillary either..
[00:25] (Doobshaw) so I guess I'm confused
[00:25] (emil^^) bush has fucked over the reps that is true in opinion.....but guiliani is rather novel - and he's not sold up on the rep storyboards
[00:26] (emil^^) guiliani is a rep who most american can buy into
[00:27] (patch6) what are his selling points
[00:28] (emil^^) guiliani - well 1 he's respectable, he has proven his ability to be a stong man in 9/11, yes like it or not that is true ............
[00:28] (emil^^) also
[00:28] (patch6) any principles you can comment on
[00:28] (emil^^) he's breaches the middlground - he doesn't alientate tho who are against certain typical pro repbullican institutions
[00:28] (patch6) he was mayor during 9/11 (and has also profitted tremendously from the event, as an aside)
[00:29] (emil^^) well for one i find it a major thing that he is personally against abortion - but he belives in states rights
[00:29] (patch6) so he believes in empowering the state to kill babies
[00:29] (patch6) also he hates the second amendment
[00:30] (emil^^) patch - he belives in americans having the right to decide for themselves - that i like - i want my vote to count
[00:30] (OldSchool) the cigar smoke filled board room institution =x
[00:30] (Doobshaw) I wonder if it will ever be OK for the media to say they have zero trust in Hillary
[00:30] (emil^^) patch - if new york wants to ban guns - fine - as a state they have that right - i think it wrong - but states should m ake their own decisiokns on such contentious issues
[00:31] (emil^^) i'll still carry my gun no matter what in illinois even if we vote against this here - but i think states should have the right to write their own laws
[00:31] (Doobshaw) emil^^ the rosie o'donnels of this world don't seem to understand that the states have the perogative to regulate arms under the 2nd amendment.
[00:32] (emil^^) i do belive in democracy tho
[00:32] (emil^^) doobshaw - nuts like her are well - just simply nuts
[00:32] (emil^^) i for one would like chicago to become a state and leave downstate illinois to our own devices
[00:33] (emil^^) but i do belive in democracy
[00:33] (emil^^) and i pitty the politican who tells the south guns should be illelgal
[00:33] (Doobshaw) emil^^ just as wild example, if you wanted to go "Cho" on your town, you could to that easily, and gun fuckers would use that as a reason to ban any method you currently use to protect yourself with firearms
[00:33] (Doobshaw) Heh
[00:34] (emil^^) well not sure what you mean......the VT guy?
[00:34] (Doobshaw) Yeah.. They use some outlying example as an excuse to screw everyone else
[00:34] (emil^^) it's a commen sense issue tho - ban hammers - they can kill
[00:34] (emil^^) how many people need to die via hammers before we regulate construction workers? see? simple stupidity
[00:35] (Doobshaw) It's not like Cho released Nanobots that turned the earth into Gray Goo
[00:35] (patch6) he's won 3 "muzzle awards" from the "Thomas Jefferson Center for the Protection of Free Expression"
[00:35] (emil^^) but then i dont like in new york - illelgal guns are an issue there......where i live i could care less tho -
[00:35] (patch6) that's something to look forward to
[00:35] (emil^^) as long as wher ei live has the rights i think we deserve - i guess it's up to each state to make their own laws
[00:36] (Doobshaw) so now we deal with "Oh well if Cho had access to nanobots he could destroy the planet" and therefore we need CCTV cameras in our bathroom when take shits.
[00:36] (emil^^) your point?
[00:36] (Doobshaw) It's out of control
[00:36] (Doobshaw) :)
[00:36] (emil^^) and what is your answer to this issue?
[00:37] (Doobshaw) Well to be honest I think we should reelect George H. W. Bush
[00:37] (emil^^) doobshaw - well #1) 2 term limit and #2) this man is rather devisive and he's left the country in more peril than when he took office
[00:38] (Doobshaw) He's a little slow now.. I've seen him crying on TV.. I guess he's not the best candidate
[00:38] (Doobshaw) George H.W. still has another term available
[00:38] (emil^^) umm, did i miss somthing or am i stoned? i thought he was on his 2nd term now
[00:38] (Doobshaw) His dad
[00:39] (emil^^) ohh herbert walker
[00:39] (Doobshaw) His dad only served 1 term
[00:39] (emil^^) he's too old :)
[00:39] (Doobshaw) He's got another term available to him
[00:39] (emil^^) honeslty he wasn't all that bad - people slammed him (myself incluced) for not taking out sadaam - guess hindsight really is 20/20.........
[00:40] (emil^^) at least sadaam did keep iraq in check - a lot better than the clusterfuck we have today
[00:40] (Doobshaw) can't really control for the electorate
[00:41] (Doobshaw) Ross Perot was involved though
[00:42] (Doobshaw) Norman Schwarzkoph was the Mac daddy.. do you remember that?
[00:42] (Doobshaw) He could have been president
[00:42] (emil^^) he wasn't all that bad
[00:43] (Doobshaw) CNN was gushing all over him
[00:43] (emil^^) what i know him best for tho is the quote 'going to war without france is like going deerhunting without your accordion' - n. schwarzkoph
[00:43] (Doobshaw) when CNN actually meant something
[00:43] (emil^^) tho with sarkozy now - i have to say france has pleseantly surpised me
[00:44] (emil^^) perot i liked - just cuz i wish the u.s. had more than 2 choices who - despite the rehotric - agree mostly on 90% of issues
[00:44] (emil^^) i would love the u.s. have have a 3rd major party
[00:44] (Doobshaw) Sarkozy is just a cosmopolitan reaction to liberal failures
[00:45] (patch6) Giuliani's law firm was the sole one representing CINTRA (Spanish-owned) and Zachry Construction Co.'s efforts to create a trans-texas corridor, along with tolls for the entire length.. the deal was worked out with TxDOT (texas department of transportation), which sold a key piece of state infrastructure to CINTRA-Zachry for a pittance of what it will generate ($1.3 billion)
[00:45] (emil^^) well - it is a shock - i'm so used to france being the anti-us gov't........this gives me hope that france can become an aly
[00:45] (bud`) i never remember cnn gushing over schwartz
[00:45] (patch6) he helped to sell a piece of America to foreign interests
[00:45] (bud`) i remember he was the big bag do
[00:45] (bud`) dog
[00:45] (patch6) the guy is dirt, I can't think of anything nice to say about him
[00:46] (emil^^) patch - well - name any presidiential candadite - someoen can find something 'unpatriotic' they have done
[00:46] (Doobshaw) Sarkozy will bring sense back to france. the official 30 hour work week will end
[00:47] (emil^^) guiliani - i guess may be disliked by the far right - cuz well.....he wants states rights when it comes to certain very controversial issues such as euthanaisa, or abortion.....instead of a blanket ban on what a minority of the far right demand
[00:47] (Doobshaw) Talk about a reactionary politics, reacting against american work ethic and profit motive.
[00:47] (bud`) riight
[00:47] (emil^^) doobshaw - i think sarkozy is great for france - just stoked they actually elected him
[00:48] (Doobshaw) They had to do it
[00:48] (Doobshaw) I think they realized it themselves
[00:48] (emil^^) doombshaw i'm sure france wants to remain a competitive industrial entity
[00:48] (nharris) Segoline the Nanny :)
[00:49] (Doobshaw) De Touqvillle is popular in france as a derisive critique of american enterprise
[00:49] (Doobshaw) I think that will change
[00:49] (bud`) there will come a point, where this 1/2 century long demogouge of blaming america, will come to and end
[00:49] (emil^^) at some point we all have to suck it up and realize it's not a global economy - the u.s. is facing this today......france has a lot of issues they need to face - racism is rampant nearly like it was here in the 60's
[00:49] (bud`) you can only play the card so long
[00:50] (emil^^) err it IS** a global economy
[00:51] (emil^^) i.e. - a non-white can not get a job as a receptionist in paris.........
[00:51] (nharris) wow.. in Muslim France?
[00:51] (emil^^) racism is alive and well not just in the u.s. but in france as well - the fact that we're better of them isn't really saying a lot - but at least we've made some strides to curb rampart racism
[00:52] (patch6) illegal immigration doesn't help the cause of racial tolerance
[00:52] (patch6) one iota
[00:52] (Doobshaw) France doesn't like religion any more than I do or my family does
[00:52] (patch6) it intensifies racial tensions
[00:52] (bud`) how many more years will leftie candidates across the world be able to come out and proclaim vote for me because america sucks!
[00:52] (nharris) war on religion..that's new.. not
[00:52] (Doobshaw) I think they know in their hearts that they can't tolerate a secret sect of non-french actors operating in their country.
[00:53] (emil^^) france needs to realize they are a country of not just white frecnh speaking people......they have a very veyr tough battle ahead of them
[00:53] (Doobshaw) This whole Veil wearing extravaganza is proof that france has issues with culture internal to their state
[00:53] (nharris) NEW YORK - A Florida doctor was convicted Monday of providing material support to terrorists by agreeing to treat injured al-Qaida fighters so they could return to Iraq to battle Americans (--- a lot like the Lincoln assassination doctor's case
[00:54] (emil^^) doobshaw - like america - they need to realize they have ethnic minorities who are a part of their country and need to figure out how to embrace them in a amiable type of way which is fair
[00:54] (emil^^) obviously wearing a burka on a drivers liscense photo is not the answer
[00:55] (emil^^) nharris - multiculuralism isn't easy - yes......sadly
[00:55] (Doobshaw) america has had ethinic minorities for its entire existence. We in the North are equal in our treatment of people, regardless of background. Anyway, I think we have a strong example to present to the world.
[00:56] (emil^^) we have a long ways to go - sorry to say - but in comparison - i like to think we have made major strides
[00:56] (nharris) multiculturalism WOULD be easy if there weren't the hypocrisy.. the "we are all equal" followed by the "because I am muslim, I have special requirements and entitlements" attitude
[00:57] (emil^^) nharris - this is an ongoing issue and you're right
[00:57] (Doobshaw) The USA stands proud. The civil war is a hurtful experience, and I am not convinced the South really feels the same way I do about their history.
[00:57] (nharris) yeah.. it predates me.. and will postdate me. Exists in all nations to an extent.
[00:58] (Doobshaw) France helped out the USA in the revolutionary war
[00:58] (nharris) I think USA paid them back a few times since
[00:58] (emil^^) what i do know tho - is we do have communities like dearborne michigan - they are muslim and they in numbers work for america when it comes to translantion to support our nation
[00:58] (nharris) Now they fear the hundreds of miles of border fences will undo their work and kill some land animals by cutting them off from the Rio Grande, the only source of fresh water.
[00:58] (Doobshaw) We had to escape an insane King
[00:59] (nharris) Solution? Have special doggie doors that allow animals to reach the rio grande but not mexicans LOL
[00:59] (emil^^) nharris - not to make light of this - but thank god the mexicans dont have ladders lol
[00:59] (nharris) hahaha emil
[00:59] (nharris) the ATF just filled up a well built tunnel under the border with concrete this month
[01:00] (emil^^) i've stated this before and i got banned by freetrade - but i'ts simple - WE WILL always have ILLELGAL immigration....as long as we offer that demand - it's simple to fix this............2 parts 1) fine companies who hire illelgals 1 million doallars
[01:00] (Doobshaw) emil^^ The going theory is that "global hawk" drone air craft can provide the intelligence needed to intercept border crossers, and we won't need a physical barrier..... LOL
[01:00] (emil^^) and 2) do what we need to allow immigrants to work here - cuz we need their labor
[01:00] (nharris) I agree.. as long as there's bait, there'll be immigrants pursuing it
[01:01] (emil^^) it's a bandaid solution
[01:01] (bud`) emil^^ its simple. do not ever argue immigration with freetrade. do not ever counter his points on immigration. just don't speak. sit on your hands.
[01:01] (emil^^) it's like blaming columbia for making cocain - as long as we have the demand people will sell us drugs or illelgals will come here to work
[01:01] (patch6) rolling out the red carpet for tens of millions of illegals is not a solution to anything beyond burdening social services even further, and the aggregate will suffer a reduction of living standards as a result
[01:01] (nharris) now.. if the bait had a nasty risk to it, such as castration.. word would get out FAST that the bait just wasn't worth it :)
[01:01] (emil^^) no this is really really simple - immigration, illelgal - we dont want to fix - if we did we already would have
[01:02] (emil^^) it's not hard - fact is americand demands illelgals to work here.....that is why we have the supply/demand
[01:02] (nharris) maybe we fly to mexico..fix their leaky roof.. gesture at it and say "see? now you can stay HERE!"
[01:02] (emil^^) stopping illelgal immigration is soooooooooooo simple
[01:02] (Doobshaw) It's pretty obvious that our legislators are bribed by companies that hire illegal aliens
[01:03] (emil^^) doobshaw - well yale had a study a few years back - that illelgals put 7 times more into the economy than they take out
[01:03] (Doobshaw) or companies that benefit fro cheap illegal labor
[01:03] (patch6) there is a significant portion of the population - hispanics included - that want to stop the problem in its tracks, but there are also opportunistic politicos that want this issue to boil over so that they can capitalize on the aftermath
[01:03] (emil^^) they give to the private corps.......but they take from the tax payers (i.e. education, health care)
[01:03] (nharris) hmm.. I've heard the opposite.. I've heard the money earned by illegals for the most part gets sent across the border, never to be seen again by the US economy
[01:03] (bud`) emil^^ the growers association and other minute groups representing very few wealthy people have all kinds of neat stats for you
[01:03] (emil^^) long story short we NEED ILLELGAL IMMIGRATION - we need cheap labor
[01:04] (emil^^) but we can regulate this rather easily
[01:04] (nharris) naw.. plenty of americans would do the same labor when the wages were upped. Sure there'd be inflation..TEMPORARILY..but the fact that americans will spend those wages IN USA will almost quadruplely compensate for it
[01:04] (emil^^) let us grant workers the right to work here........but at the same time let us punish those who fight our laws
[01:04] (Doobshaw) The problem is that as soon as these workers become legal their value to farmers is 0
[01:04] (bud`) emil^^ look at the big studies.. the growing/harvesting part of the operation in no more than 3% of your total food cost. now take than info and argue it with people who cry about apples costing $10 if no illegal labor was used
[01:04] (emil^^) and those who employ illelgals - stick it to them - that will stop illelgals from being employed
[01:05] (Doobshaw) Farmers don't want legals. They want illegals
[01:05] (nharris) now.. illegals willing to be lab test specimens.. that would be useful
[01:05] (CryHavoc) they will never have it stuck to them...
[01:05] (CryHavoc) the businesses who hire illegals buy congress critters
[01:05] (emil^^) bud - fine - them make a pseudo - american worker status - give them 25% of the min wage..........but lets make this legal
[01:06] (Doobshaw) Farmer's current Business model is based on illegals
[01:06] (emil^^) we really should enforce our borders
[01:06] (bud`) emil^^ legals nor illegals work for 25% of mw
[01:06] (emil^^) well it's not hard - if we wanted to stop illelgal immigration that is simple - SOOO simple - punish those who hire them.........
[01:06] (bud`) emil^^ the 2k illegals removed from swift & co this year.. all of them made 3x or more min wage
[01:07] (nharris) yep.. however.. those who hire them also bribe enforcers
[01:07] (emil^^) bud - damn - then sure we need them - make our gov't grant them guest worker status how hard is this?
[01:07] (Doobshaw) Illegals get Free Health Care.
[01:07] (Doobshaw) Citizens go into Bankruptcy to get health care
[01:07] (emil^^) and yes the illelgals should pay taxes.........
[01:07] (nharris) gotta find a way to get around the "every man has his price" connundrum.
[01:07] (Doobshaw) It's not fair
[01:08] (emil^^) if they were regulated it woudlnt' be that bad - they should pay taxes like the rest of us
[01:08] (Doobshaw) $5000 doesn't cut it
[01:08] (emil^^) i dont mind having workers here - it makes companies make a profit we all benefit
[01:08] (Astrodog) Doob: The programs that are avalible to illegals, are also avalible to citizens... and they're not federal programs.
[01:08] (bud`) emil^^ we don't need them. this is the lie. once ICE broke up the identity theft ring, with the help of swift, the line of LEGAL americans wanting these jobs stretched around the building
[01:08] (emil^^) if only all illelgals paid thier share of taxes
[01:08] (Doobshaw) So I just have to go to the emergency room without ID and say I am mexican, and I can get free health care?
[01:09] (Astrodog) emil: Most do. Its much easier to use a fake SS, than it is to find someone who will pay under the table.
[01:09] (emil^^) nah - i really think we do need illelgals.........companies make profit they pay taxes they helps us all
[01:09] (Astrodog) Doob: Uh. Anyone can go to the ER for an actual emergency, and get treated.
[01:09] (emil^^) well this is a reason i like the concept of biometric id's
[01:09] (bud`) maybe in SOME states, in SOME industries, they need very seasonal workers for very cheap. THis does not justify the defense of the millions who are stealing identities and colluding to deny honest americans hjobs
[01:09] (Astrodog) emil: Except for biometrics being fairly easy to fake, I'd agree with you.
[01:10] (emil^^) astrodog - true - and we as tax payers pay their bill
[01:10] (Doobshaw) Astrodog: most honest people takea financial hit for that
[01:10] (emil^^) fingerprints and retenal scans are unique to each person
[01:10] (Doobshaw) astrodog: you forgot that?
[01:10] (Astrodog) emil: I've worked with both fingerprint, and retnal systems for computers... they're crap.
[01:10] (emil^^) i dont comprehend why people are agains tthis
[01:10] (nharris) just for a thought exercise.. not talking "shoulds" or anything.. what would a no-limit, "if you cross the border and prove not to be a terrorist, you're a citizen..but you can't send money back to mexico" plan do for us?
[01:10] (Astrodog) Doob: Dude. I support socialized medicine. :P
[01:11] (Astrodog) emil: Because it provides a false sense of security.
[01:11] (Doobshaw) Astrodog: for mexicans or for americans?
[01:11] (Astrodog) Doob: For anyone who shows up with a real emergency, for one.
[01:11] (emil^^) astrodog - well say for example - you show up at the hospital - you get your fingerpintn compared to yoru id........
[01:11] (nharris) heh.. socialized medicine... aka Wait 30 hours in the ER for all the hypochondriacs and abusers of anything free in front of you to be seen by a Dr. First
[01:11] (emil^^) sure if it doesn't match you get deported
[01:12] (Astrodog) emil: Yeah. Those systems generally suck.
[01:12] (Doobshaw) American families are being destroyed because of medical costs, whereas mexican families get it for free, among countless other benefits that taxpayers pay for
[01:12] (Astrodog) And fingerprints have a suprisingly high rate of false positives.
[01:12] (Astrodog) Doob: Americans have access to the exact same benifits immigrants do... plus all of the federal programs.
[01:12] (bud`) ENgland has the best system. NHS + private on all levels. Its like america but with that free door always open
[01:12] (emil^^) astrodog - i really dont belive that retenal scans can be so easily circumnavigated - that is if we really cared about this technology
[01:13] (nharris) Canada has socialized medicine, and if you ask anybody EXCEPT the politicians about it, they'll tell you it sucks
[01:13] (Doobshaw) mexicans have no obligation to pay anything
[01:13] (bud`) you can argue nhs sucks all night long, but at the end of the day they have it, you dont
[01:13] (Astrodog) emil: You'd be wrong. A retnal scanner ammounts to a webcam with an eye holder attached.
[01:13] (emil^^) i'm all for foreign workers - we need them - but we should invest as a country on making this tech failsafe
[01:13] (Doobshaw) americans are forced by law to pay their fair share
[01:13] (Astrodog) emil: It never will be.
[01:13] (Astrodog) Its simply the nature of how it works.
[01:13] (emil^^) doobshaw - yeah i pay my fair share - but i really hate the fact that i'm paying for medical care and schooling of mexicans
[01:13] (Astrodog) The only thing that'd be near failsafe is DNA.
[01:14] (Astrodog) And... as far as DNA goes... hell no.
[01:14] (Doobshaw) There is a mexican tax.
[01:14] (nharris) med costs would come down if greedy corrupt fucks wouldn't sue the system for booboos to the tune of $20M a piece
[01:14] (Astrodog) Doob: No, there isn't.
[01:14] (Doobshaw) Yes there is
[01:14] (Doobshaw) It's remittances
[01:14] (Astrodog) Most studies indicate that illegal immigrants pay more in taxes, than they take out of the system.
[01:14] (Doobshaw) It's free health care
[01:14] (emil^^) with all the technology we have today......there is no reason we can't indentify each individual who works in the us
[01:14] (Astrodog) emil: Yes, there is.
[01:15] (Doobshaw) It's a stubbed toe your ER doctor fixed up last week that no one pays for
[01:15] (Astrodog) Unless you're up for turning everyone's DNA into the government... biometrics are fairly unreliable.
[01:15] (emil^^) astrodog - you are at odds than with yale university - they found that illelgals put 7 times more into the economy than they take out - but what they give is to companies and what they take out is via medical/schooling
[01:15] (bud`) Astrodog thats impossible to quantify. you have no idea how much money is going where
[01:16] (bud`) maybe once upon a time
[01:16] (emil^^) illelgals dont pay the taxes we do - and they get paid under the table
[01:16] (nharris) illegals pay..what.. sales tax.. but tend to increase the need for more expensive police presence, tax payer assistance in raising their 6+ kids, and make an impact on the environment
[01:16] (Astrodog) emil: Its fairly unusual for someone to be paid under the table. Most illegals just use fake SS#s.
[01:16] (bud`) nowadays any employer paying payroll/SS taxes promptly receives a letter if someone working for them has a fake ss number
[01:16] (Doobshaw) Mexico is our sacred neighbor, and I do beleive "sacred".. they are our neighbor for life. We have to help mexico rise above and help them take care of their own people
[01:16] (Astrodog) Because an employer has to pay taxes, on that money they pay out under the table. So most aren't inclined to do it.
[01:17] (emil^^) astrodog like it or not - yes we profit from illelgals - but it's the companies who profit and it's the tax payers who pay the price
[01:17] (bud`) all from the same 'info' sources that claim apples will go up to $10 each im sure
[01:17] (emil^^) doombshaw - shit i love mexico - i just want a just system is all
[01:18] (Doobshaw) we need to make this thing work
[01:18] (Astrodog) Given that more money comes in, than goes out... what's the problem with the current system?
[01:18] (Doobshaw) life is only 80 years
[01:18] (nharris) Mexico needs to get their shit together and create a country their people want to live in.
[01:18] (emil^^) astrodog - well i'm not employiing any illelgals - so i'm paying in taxes while the illelgals give profit to the corps
[01:18] (patch6) emil, what's the name of that yale study
[01:19] (Astrodog) emil: You said it was, what 7x?
[01:19] (emil^^) astrodog yes...... 7times said yale
[01:19] (Astrodog) Corps pay enough in taxes, generally to cover the outflow.
[01:19] (Astrodog) Remember
[01:19] (Astrodog) Any money paid under the table... still has taxes paid on it.
[01:19] (Astrodog) They're just paid by the employer, not the employee.
[01:20] (bud`) im a hippy traveller =) i would mind going to Cali or Oregan and picking fruit to pay for my trip one year. But according to freetrade I'd be a stupid gringo who has no fucking business applying for these jobs. That bothers me some....
[01:20] (Astrodog) Because that money is then income for the business.
[01:20] (emil^^) well i also think it naive to think we pay illelgals min wage (or 3x times - as some have suggested)
[01:20] (emil^^) there are cases of skilled workers who i'm sure this is true
[01:20] (patch6) searches are coming up with nothing
[01:20] (nharris) I'd rather see US citizens pick fruit than illegals or visa workers
[01:20] (emil^^) patch - i'll look for you - yale wasn't alone on this study - i'll see what i can find
[01:21] (bud`) emil^^ yo... swift & co... illegal id theft ring.. meat packing/slaighter jobs.. $18+/hr... read your news
[01:21] (Astrodog) nharris: Given the current levels of unemployment... there aren't enough US citizens to do it.
[01:21] (CryHavoc) nharris wants to pick illegal fruit
[01:21] (emil^^) bud - shit i'de take that job right now
[01:21] (CryHavoc) nharris purchases dos illegadas dieci seis anos
[01:21] (Astrodog) emil: Then go apply. You can clean up all the cow shit you want.
[01:21] (bud`) emil^^ plenty did... again read your news.. line to replace the illegals was round the building
[01:22] (CryHavoc) emil wants the mushrooms
[01:22] (emil^^) no shame here, i want to make money yes
[01:22] (locksofgo) isn't minimum wage going up
[01:22] (locksofgo) how will we pay over 7 dollars an hour to pick fruit
[01:22] (CryHavoc) psilocybin shrooms
[01:22] (Astrodog) Remember, employers don't really care who they hire, as long as they can pay em about the same.
[01:22] (CryHavoc) min wage should be abolished
[01:23] (nharris) hahaha.. I want to purchase an illegal copy of Vista Ultimate..perhaps in Thailand
[01:23] (CryHavoc) if employers can pay them less they will hire illegals
[01:23] (locksofgo) the real question is how much fruit can we possibly pick
[01:23] (CryHavoc) nharris...purchase??
[01:23] (bud`) i dont know of any min wage jobs in my region. so what does it matter if they have their silly min wage laws
[01:23] (CryHavoc) feh
[01:23] (nharris) yeah..for about $3.00 :)
[01:23] (patch6) emil, try to remember some key words
[01:23] (CryHavoc) download it
[01:23] (patch6) unique to it
[01:23] (nharris) I have terrible luck finding full ISO's of MS products :(
[01:23] (CryHavoc) not here
[01:23] (Doobshaw) Why hasn't the mexican leadership participated in the negotiations for their citizens living in the USA?
[01:24] (Doobshaw) the Mexican president doesn't give a damn?
[01:24] (Agape`) CryHavoc: they get around min wage anyway. last time I worked pizza delivery, I was paid under normal min wage on the grounds that I'd make tips. and then at least once I got screwed out of it because I didn't count my change packet first, and the locals tipped like every dime was a sacrifice.
[01:24] (Doobshaw) I thought the election was fake.. but so it goes. I don't live there
[01:24] (emil^^) well 12 million illelgals working here - mexico doesn't have much to complain about
[01:24] (CryHavoc) and many more once the new bill is passed
[01:25] (Doobshaw) Why isn't the mexican diplomacy involved on a public level in the deliberations for possible legislation?
[01:25] (bud`) i dont think any of you know a damn thing about whats in the bill =P
[01:25] (nharris) mexico now loses more people to illegal immigration than death
[01:25] (locksofgo) when you pick fruit, fruit does not tip
[01:25] (Doobshaw) Mexican government needs to have a public face on this
[01:25] (nharris) pretty soon mexico will be empty and a perfect place to colonize!
[01:25] (emil^^) nharris - but it pays off - people send money back home to thier families - they're good people mostly
[01:26] (CryHavoc) no...they will breed to fill in the gaps
[01:26] (Doobshaw) Does mexico want to constantly be USA's second cousin?
[01:26] (GuestMe`) The U.S. will be overrun
[01:26] (bud`) i read the draft of the bill yesterday and so far i havent seen a single person in here accurately demonstrate knowledge of a single fucking thing it contains. gets fucking old
[01:26] (Doobshaw) Mexico needs to get involved
[01:26] (nharris) maybe Spain should come and clean up what they've done.. just like Europe insists we do with Iraq
[01:26] (CryHavoc) Doob...yep...until we change things..
[01:26] (patch6) emil, help?
[01:26] (emil^^) bud - then educate us please - .......i ask with all sincerity
[01:26] (patch6) that study, anything
[01:27] (GuestMe`) The time will come because the politicians will *never* enforce the laws (new or old)
[01:27] (patch6) about it
[01:27] (Doobshaw) This is insane.. Mexican government is never heard from... OUR NEIGHBORS
[01:27] (emil^^) patch - haven't taken the time - i read this about 5 or 6 years ago - and it wasn't just yale alone
[01:27] (CryHavoc) if we sealed the border...Mexico would undergo a radical change
[01:27] (Doobshaw) This is more than curious
[01:27] (GuestMe`) And, if they are able to pass a bill that can legalize millions with one sweep .. along with not enforcing the laws we already have
[01:27] (GuestMe`) It will send a message to them
[01:27] (patch6) if you can't source it, it has no weight
[01:27] (GuestMe`) (Come on in)
[01:28] (nharris) tough love perhaps.. it may force them to evaluate life and do something about it ... like GET EDUCATED, and learn to be a world competitor
[01:28] (emil^^) no - fact is americans buisnesses strongly depend on our 12 million illelgal workers - it's a fact we need cheap labor
[01:28] (Doobshaw) The mexican government doesn't give a fuck. They are way more corrupt than anything we know...
[01:28] (Doobshaw) That's my conclusion. Sorry
[01:28] (patch6) is anyone aware of a study that determines the illegal immigrants to be a net gain on the economy
[01:28] (CryHavoc) the bill will bring even more to the USA...government revenue source is only a source if the can keep the illegals coming
[01:28] (GuestMe`) See, people get caught up into thinking about 'ol Juan as a "person" .. I could give a shit if he's the nicest man I will ever meet .. or an utter asshole
[01:28] (GuestMe`) If he is illegal
[01:29] (GuestMe`) He has to go
[01:29] (bud`) emil^^ more entertaining this way
[01:29] (CryHavoc) I agree nharris
[01:29] (GuestMe`) I really don
[01:29] (GuestMe`) care what great a guy he is, or how hard he works
[01:29] (nharris) yep.. Mexican politics is Corruption incarnate. I used to hear from tourguides down there how anyone in office from the lowly patrol officer up to the governor was pretty OPENLY on the take
[01:29] (patch6) beyond hopeful emotional "can't we all be friends" rhetoric
[01:29] (emil^^) well only a fool doesnt' realize americans depend on cheap labor......why else does the govt' lobby ingore this
[01:30] (CryHavoc) Commiecast newsgroup service...they constantly kill your bandwidth.....
[01:30] (GuestMe`) They can depend all they want to, it will be the bug to come back and bite them in the ass
[01:30] (nharris) currently depends. We could ween ourselves off of illegal labor quickly
[01:30] (CryHavoc) Sprints NGs though ....:)
[01:30] (patch6) this seems more of an opportunity to take advantage of social services while obtaining a tax-free salary
[01:30] (patch6) I fail to see how that is of benefit overall
[01:30] (Doobshaw) emil^^, I think there's nothing wrong with 1 million a year, controlled immigration.. I don't appreciate this fake-out where everything is done secretly. The Mexican Government is already too secret and peoiple in mexico dont appreciate their own governent.
[01:30] (emil^^) guestme - no - if we stopped illelgals overnight - we'de have a shortage of 12 million workers
[01:30] (CryHavoc) cue up 20 gigs leave it on for as long as needed lololol
[01:30] (nharris) last time I used a newsgroup it was to argue with the borderline personalities running alt.2600.warez :)
[01:30] (GuestMe`) emil^^: We would make it
[01:31] (CryHavoc) Open controlled immigration......shitcan quotas
[01:31] (GuestMe`) I don't believe that illegals are the backbone of this country
[01:31] (emil^^) doobshaw - yeah sadly - this is done illelgally -i just wish we could make guest workers legal
[01:31] (GuestMe`) And the people that support that are disgusting
[01:31] (CryHavoc) nharris is a professional flamer..
[01:31] (CryHavoc) nharris post: You WINDOZE using CLUSTERFUCK!!!
[01:31] (emil^^) guestme - sure we could make it - but it would be a clusterfuck
[01:31] (patch6) if anyone can produce studies, I'm all eyes for it
[01:31] (CryHavoc) then he gets abusive
[01:31] (GuestMe`) To hear Americans say such things as "They do work Americans won't do" "They are the force holding this country up"
[01:31] (bud`) how much does it cost an illegal in fines to get a Z Visa good for ag labor and benefits?
[01:32] (GuestMe`) Is disgusting to me
[01:32] (nharris) hahaha.. I take exception to the way the fat sods who consider themselves "newsgroup owners" try to make complete newbies jump through hoops just for their amusement. So I cockblock them and tell the newbies to ignore them
[01:32] (CryHavoc) bud $6500
[01:32] (locksofgo) you either love nharris or you hate him
[01:32] (bud`) CryHavoc wrong. $100
[01:32] (bud`) CryHavoc read the bill
[01:32] (CryHavoc) the Narcotraficantes will provide the dinero
[01:32] (emil^^) guestme - no that is wrong - they do work for cheaper, and under the table - and corps love cheap labor
[01:32] (GuestMe`) And people *really* think these illegals are going to pay the *fine*
[01:32] (nharris) I fight for the common newbie.. not my own popularity :)
[01:32] (CryHavoc) Z-A Visa and Z visa two different things
[01:32] (GuestMe`) And sink out money for English classes
[01:32] (CryHavoc) bud..the bill is fundamentally flawed
[01:33] (nharris) depo provera shots for all visa workers :)
[01:33] (GuestMe`) Yea, I am sure every illegal across the country will go right into the local clerk and chunk out 5 grand and then make another trip to the local community college
[01:33] (bud`) CryHavoc i specifically asked Z-A Visa. this is an ag labor visa, that will cost illegals $100
[01:33] (GuestMe`) heh
[01:33] (locksofgo) as long as i can bang em
[01:33] (CryHavoc) it is all but a message to illegals...we want your money for revenue..come one come all
[01:33] (nharris) yes.. banging latinas is wide open :)
[01:33] (emil^^) it is what it is - like or or not - americans depend on illelgals - to call that the 'backbone 'is hyperbole only - but it is a beneficial byproduct and it is profit
[01:33] (GuestMe`) They won't get that money though .. I think it's a huge mistake
[01:33] (CryHavoc) nharris hehe
[01:33] (locksofgo) hooray
[01:33] (locksofgo) open the gates
[01:33] (bud`) CryHavoc i was just proving my point, nobody bothers to read the fucking thing before climbing up on their soapboxes
[01:34] (GuestMe`) They think they'll easily collect this 5 grand fee or whatever
[01:34] (Doobshaw) It's sad, but to be fair to our country alot of people are going to have to mov back home
[01:34] (CryHavoc) thats what it is...the proposed border security is a joke
[01:34] (GuestMe`) and start putting them into English classes
[01:34] (Doobshaw) that's just the risk they took
[01:34] (bud`) 1.5 million Z-A visas will be issued
[01:34] (GuestMe`) A joke indeed
[01:34] (bud`) to START
[01:34] (Doobshaw) they knew what they were doing
[01:34] (CryHavoc) GuestMe....all they do is go to their local drug dealer
[01:34] (CryHavoc) bud...uh huh
[01:34] (GuestMe`) WIthout enforced laws granting any kind of amnesty sends the message that it's OK to break the law and to bring as many in as you can
[01:34] (nharris) the time when we COULD "take your huddled, poor masses" has gone. No Vacancy now
[01:35] (Doobshaw) They can play on your sympathies.. They knew what they were doing, coming here illegally
[01:35] (nharris) UNLESS they want to live in North Dakota
[01:35] (CryHavoc) nharris..no....we still can...but you come through a immigration processing center..
[01:35] (nharris) fair enough
[01:35] (CryHavoc) where in the future..the anti-abortion police stamp your Vagina
[01:35] (nharris) they have to prove themselves to have contributory skills
[01:35] (emil^^) again - dont blame mexicans for coming here looking for jobs - blame those who are hireing them
[01:35] (Doobshaw) It's a broader issue we have to deal with as moral people. Mexico is our sacred, long term neighbor. If God aligned the continents, there is mexico next to the USA
[01:35] (emil^^) if we want to stop illelgal immigration it's not hard
[01:35] (GuestMe`) I blame both
[01:36] (nharris) we got enough dead weight with our welfare frauds without taking on an international aspect
[01:36] (CryHavoc) nharris...old joke...tugher reqs for Libyan emigres...they need to know how to operate a slurpee machine b4 arriving
[01:36] (nharris) hahahah
[01:36] (GuestMe`) We are appealing to them and this is why. We are becoming a "nanny state"
[01:36] (emil^^) stopping illelgals is simple - simply punish those who hire them - them that solves the probelems - baindaid solutions dont means shit
[01:36] (GuestMe`) They know the benefits they can get by being here
[01:36] (nharris) ...hellloooo steady custumuh.. perhaps choo vould like a biff cherky weeth your purchase of hustler mackazine..no?
[01:36] (CryHavoc) nharris....the 1986 bill was to be the final amnesty...
[01:37] (CryHavoc) now this one is touted as the same...
[01:37] (GuestMe`) They know the U.S. government is working hard to make sure that in the future they take care of every aspect of human life within the country
[01:37] (CryHavoc) ca. 2027...another one...for 30-50 million illegals
[01:37] (emil^^) guesme - of course - as long as we offer to hire people - who seriouslly seriouslly are hurting/starving and want a better life..........nothing will change
[01:37] (nharris) yeah I read somewhere... . first we gave them amnesty.... then we did it again... and now Ted Kennedy wants to go for a hat trick!
[01:37] (CryHavoc) if TK lays down at the border...he could block a lot of it
[01:37] (emil^^) it's like blaming columbia for making drugs.........of course they'll make drugs as long as there is demand to buy them
[01:37] (GuestMe`) Government educates us, provides us healthcare, financial support,
[01:38] (GuestMe`) Why not sneak on over?
[01:38] (nharris) I'll give TK a NIMBY he won't soon forget... the Medallin Cartel!
[01:38] (GuestMe`) heh
[01:38] (CryHavoc) Not in my back yard
[01:38] (emil^^) of course - as long as we hire illelgals - there will always be a demand - fix that problem if you want to fix illelgal immigration
[01:38] (Doobshaw) Lets face it, mexico sucks
[01:38] * CryHavoc sends a few 1000 illegals to Hyannisport
[01:38] (Doobshaw) They have no national pride
[01:38] (Doobshaw) zero
[01:38] (CryHavoc) hey man...no way...not in my back yard hes gonna stay.....
[01:38] (GuestMe`) Things in this country started going downhill when personal responsibility took a back seat to expectation of goverment action
[01:38] (nharris) hahah that would change their view I'm sure! That's the problem with the ivory tower legislators.. most have no clue what the "proletariat" deals with
[01:38] (emil^^) doobshaw - it's only natural to want ot provice for you family
[01:39] (Doobshaw) my family is random
[01:39] (CryHavoc) the asshole is a stain upon the nation..if you think hes living next to me no way way way hey!
[01:39] (Doobshaw) My family includes indiginous people from Ecuador
[01:39] (CryHavoc) I have a song called NIMBY
[01:39] (nharris) I'm going to set up a Wind Generator power plant run by illegal mexicans in TK's backyard
[01:39] (CryHavoc) nharris..a few mexican BBQs...
[01:39] (emil^^) again - i say - if you REALLY THINK ILLELGAL IMMIGREATION IS A PROBLEM - fine those who hire them 1,000,000 dollars (reagen in 88 i think said this)
[01:39] (nharris) hahaha.. and 24/7 tejano music!
[01:40] (CryHavoc) emil.....wnt happen
[01:40] (Doobshaw) I am worried
[01:40] (CryHavoc) the self same employers buy congress
[01:40] (nharris) whoever gave mexico the Accordian deserves punishment far worse than the guy who sold rifles to the indians :)
[01:40] (Doobshaw) I think the western hemisphere is sweet
[01:40] (Doobshaw) We are the new world.
[01:40] (patch6) http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html is showing that illegal immigrants are taking an economic toll 2 times more than they are contributing
[01:40] (emil^^) as long as wel hire illelgals they're find a way to come here - - again they do have ladders even if we do build a wall
[01:40] (patch6) and those are 2004 numbers
[01:40] (CryHavoc) ok need ,ore sleep...asta
[01:40] (patch6) so much for 7x higher
[01:40] (nharris) later ch
[01:41] (GuestMe`) There isn't anything you can do except learn Spanish
[01:41] (GuestMe`) (heh)
[01:41] (nharris) excellent find patch.. I'm bookmarking in my "anti-liberal argument fodder" folder
[01:41] (Doobshaw) I think Venezuela wants to be our friend, and I think we should take them up on the offer..
[01:41] (emil^^) patch - i do belive in yales study - they do give 7x's more into the economy then they take out - but keep in mind what that entails - they dont pay taxes, they make less than min. wage...etc.. etc.
[01:41] (Neff) emil: illegal immigration may not be a severe problem but you're wrong to think that we need illegals
[01:42] (patch6) emil, please source that study
[01:42] (patch6) that's all I'm asking for
[01:42] (emil^^) neff - i like to think we dont - but corps think we do - and they are the ones to profit
[01:42] (GuestMe`) Neff: Even if we did, it is sad that we got to that way in the first place
[01:42] (Neff) we don't need them
[01:42] (GuestMe`) There was a time (if that were true) where I know for a fact we didn't need any services by them
[01:42] (emil^^) patch - it's 5 or 6 years old - i did look - i will look again and see what i can find i did used to have a url
[01:42] (Doobshaw) Venezuela isn't so bad. they still have a strong Business culture.... And we can invest in venezuela's business culture
[01:42] (patch6) I gave you the benefit of the doubt and tried for 5 minutes with various criteria to find it, but without more specific info there's not much to find
[01:42] (GuestMe`) So either way you look at it, it is pathetic
[01:43] (emil^^) patch - i know i feel bad - it was a mainstream think i found from cnn/bbc/abc 5 or 6 years back - finding that now is not easy
[01:43] (Doobshaw) Venezuela is my second favorite Baseball land :)
[01:44] (Doobshaw) after california
[01:44] (Doobshaw) lol
[01:44] (GuestMe`) Neff: I think it is all down hill from here
[01:44] (GuestMe`) Neff: I don't think we can stop it
[01:44] (patch6) the link I posted shows illegal immigrants' $16 billion in tax contributions being offset by $26.3 billion in costs
[01:44] (emil^^) patch - finding old studies like that which were once mainstream can be a bit difficult - but you have now given me a challenge i will do my best to solve
[01:44] (patch6) in 2004
[01:44] (patch6) it's worth pursuing
[01:44] (Doobshaw) Venezuela wants to be our friend, OK? we can ignore the political ramblings of chavez
[01:45] (GuestMe`) Neff: I think it will continue to grow until it becomes so big that politicians are eating crow for saying it would never be a problem at all
[01:45] (GuestMe`) Or ignoring it all together
[01:45] (emil^^) patch - i know i'm kicking myself for not being able to find that - i've used this same point of contention and the same study for years now
[01:45] (GuestMe`) Neff: Along with all the assholes that think it's OK to hire them
[01:45] (GuestMe`) Or rent them housing
[01:45] (Doobshaw) They want to sell us oil on terms we take part in negotiating.
[01:46] (Doobshaw) that's not so bad
[01:46] (nharris) Hugo Chavez and Danny Glover teaming up to form Lethal Latino II
[01:47] (Doobshaw) George Bush wants to help out the OPEC cartel. I'm not sure about the wisdom there.
[01:47] (emil^^) kinda off topic but kinda on topic - do you know the u.s. has 40% of the worlds coal reserves?
[01:47] (nharris) alright.. some telebishion..then bedtyme
[01:48] (emil^^) i mean given gassification - do we really need mideast oil if we would use our own rescources?
[01:48] (Doobshaw) USA has enough coal to make nuclear winter seem like an evolutionary shortcut
[01:49] (emil^^) well, if it comes down to either having no mideast oil.......or providing or ourselves..........kinda sick i know - but umm.....
[01:49] (Doobshaw) Coal isn't a concern right now
[01:49] (Doobshaw) sorry
[01:50] (emil^^) well we can gassify coal - and make our own fuel - hell look at brazil - with switchgrass - they are damn nearly energy self-sufficient
[01:50] (GuestMe`) http://www.ifilm.com/video/2677619 (lol)
[01:50] (Doobshaw) We need the rainforest to produce O2
[01:51] (Doobshaw) Can you imagine if they cut that down, we might have 200 years left
[01:51] (emil^^) well, we do have ethanol......
[01:51] (emil^^) and yes brazil does have switchgrass
[01:51] (bud`) take everyone able-bodied claiming welfare or unemplyment and get em working on an excersize-bike to energy farm
[01:51] (bud`) =P
[01:52] (emil^^) and then we have major reserves such as in alaska -
[01:52] (Doobshaw) alot of people see 200 years and thing, well "I'm a dumbass la la la"
[01:52] (emil^^) doobshaw - nah we need a ongling fuel source
[01:52] (Doobshaw) I think we need to stop growing our population. That's step 1
[01:52] (emil^^) well e85 and switchgrass is an option - and then again we have load of coal
[01:53] (Doobshaw) we can deal with invested retirement programs..
[01:53] (emil^^) just saying we shit hits the fan with mideast oil - we do have options
[01:54] (Doobshaw) What we can't deal with is dumb whores reproducing without a care
[01:54] (GuestMe`) You set yourself up
[01:54] (emil^^) doombshaw - yes china is about the be the major prodcers of both co2's and such
[01:54] (GuestMe`) for a "yo momma" joke
[01:54] (Doobshaw) 12 billion
[01:54] (Doobshaw) Screw me
[01:54] (emil^^) so what are we to to do?
[01:55] (Doobshaw) I dont care after 12 billion. There's no point
[01:55] (emil^^) i think we do have a hope when it comes to hydrogren fuels and such
[01:55] (Doobshaw) Hello world
[01:55] (emil^^) but well oil companies - blah............it's all about profit
[01:56] (emil^^) i mean no disrespect - but the u.s. does have options if we really cared
[01:56] (Doobshaw) Evolution is goint to have its way with me
[01:56] (emil^^) aspen gas is now 4.20 a gallon..........
[01:56] (Doobshaw) I will die before my time
[01:56] (patch6) that link I posted claims that an amnesty would make that deficit nearly triple in size, from a $10 billion loss to $29 billion
[01:57] (Doobshaw) I will leave no offspring
[01:57] (TWThomas) Doobshaw : get off of IRC!
[01:57] (Doobshaw) 100 dumb ass bitches will, however
[01:57] (emil^^) explain
[01:57] (GuestMe`) Just 100?
[01:57] (GuestMe`) weak
[01:57] (Doobshaw) Yo yo yo, you wish you could feel it coming
[01:57] (GuestMe`) Doobshaw is talking about 100 high school girls
[01:58] (GuestMe`) Thats how he rolls lol =D
[01:58] (Doobshaw) Yo dog, I am for real on this tip
[01:58] (emil^^) reminds of the norm mcdonald sketch - about what he'll get if he kills himself
[01:58] (GuestMe`) 40 virgins and a big mac
[01:58] (emil^^) well i want 50 hot chicks - but they have to be hot chicks! 'what!!' and virgins!
[01:58] (GuestMe`) taht would be cool
[01:59] (Doobshaw) When I was 14, this is for real, I got propsitioned for a blow job. It was in Cleveland.
[01:59] (Doobshaw) I turned it down. Dumb me
[01:59] (GuestMe`) Doobshaw: Your cousin doesn't count
[01:59] (GuestMe`) =X
[01:59] (Doobshaw) You don't know
[01:59] (emil^^) doobshaw - when i was 13 i got offered in teh bahamas - thank god i knew about stds - i turned it down too
[01:59] (GuestMe`) Or she has to be removed at least 10 times
[02:00] (Doobshaw) I think she had a latino last name, and her best friend had an asian last name
[02:00] (GuestMe`) Kill yourself the easy way! =D Fly to Africa and have sex
[02:00] (emil^^) well - okay i'll take 40 hot chicks, they have to be hot - but they have to be virgins..........well lets talk about this
[02:00] (GuestMe`) Or at least the pleasent way
[02:01] (GuestMe`) You would think in Africa fuckers would be so scared about AIDS that abstinence would increase and infection would drop
[02:01] (GuestMe`) I would
[02:02] (GuestMe`) I wouldn't have sex with a soul
[02:02] (emil^^) guest sadly sadly sadly - aids is a taboo
[02:02] (emil^^) lack of education is a really sad thing
[02:02] (GuestMe`) sex aint worth the risk
[02:02] (Doobshaw) I want our presidential candidates to care about our hemisphere, and not how they plan on torturing people from the middle east
[02:02] (emil^^) think of how long it took the u.s. to be scared of aids
[02:03] (emil^^) doobshaw - we have a lot more serious issues to worry about yes you are correct
[02:03] (Doobshaw) I am always serious
[02:04] (emil^^) well i think as the u.s.'s roll given our power and economic power - we should do our best to help the world - i think that is alturistic sure - but it is a necessity
[02:05] (emil^^) i may hate the u.n. but we need to do our part to help the world - hell we stopped polio for the most part
[02:05] (emil^^) we have the funds to actually make a difference
[02:06] (emil^^) screw teh u.n. we can do our part to give aids drugs to africa and such..........and we shoudln't want money back for this - we have a roll to play
[02:06] (emil^^) and yes we can encourage condom use to africa and south america.....
[02:07] (emil^^) we are fortunate and should be thankful for this
[02:07] (bud`) ffs more people support american idol efforts to help africa than even heard of the UN. get rid of em
[02:08] (emil^^) the un i dont trust......but regardless - we should do what we know is right - and do our part
[02:09] (bud`) we dont need a building full of suits to do it. a building full of suits, supported by tens of thousands of more suits
[02:09] (emil^^) we can help other countries - we i think are obligated as a christian (or even if you dont play that) we should simply do what is right
[02:09] (bud`) just fucking... do it
[02:09] (Astrodog) emil: First things first... we are a secular nation.
[02:09] (Astrodog) Heh.
[02:09] (emil^^) we have the rescources to help other countries - we have the funds
[02:09] (Doobshaw) Astro slog
[02:10] (Doobshaw) finally
[02:10] (emil^^) well - my church donates heavily to a church in uganda - and i am very proud of this
[02:10] (Doobshaw) Church is bogus
[02:11] (Doobshaw) Excuse me
[02:11] (Doobshaw) Church is important
[02:11] (emil^^) if you hate churches sure - but at least our congeregation give crazy dollars to uganda - and we make a major difference there
[02:11] (Astrodog) emil: Your church pays another church, to help bring members to your religion.
[02:11] (Astrodog) That's not exactly altruistic.
[02:11] (Doobshaw) I remember that my presbytrian church helped out sout american tribes. It's hard to forget the images
[02:12] (GuestMe`) I dunno
[02:12] (emil^^) astrodog - so i guess this community is better off to have chidlren starving
[02:12] (GuestMe`) problem is look how much has been sunk into Africa
[02:12] (GuestMe`) billions
[02:12] (GuestMe`) perhaps trillions
[02:12] (Astrodog) emil: I never said that.
[02:12] (Astrodog) I simply said its not altruistic.
[02:12] (GuestMe`) so why sink more money into it?
[02:12] (cpm80) Astrodog you need to read ayn rand if you think altruism is hot shit
[02:12] (GuestMe`) Why do people always feel like if you throw money at a problem, it goes away
[02:12] (GuestMe`) Don
[02:12] (emil^^) astrodog - we do our best, we have build schools, we have built churches, we have build medical centers - we pay for inoculations, we pay for food
[02:12] (cpm80) altruism is not a value to aspire to, sucker
[02:13] (GuestMe`) Don't people understand this DOES NOT WORK
[02:13] (Astrodog) cpm: I never even claimed altruism was good, either.
[02:13] (cpm80) Astrodog sure you did - you held it up as a value
[02:13] (Doobshaw) I am personally an athiest, but I support you guys trying to make it work against the beast america
[02:13] (Astrodog) cpm: I merely said that what emil's church does, contrary to his implication, is not altruistic.
[02:13] (cpm80) and criticized him for not meeting it
[02:13] (patch6) those children in africa are not impoverished by our hand
[02:13] (cpm80) he thinks that the religion part is MORE helpful
[02:13] (Astrodog) cpm: My issue was with the implication that it was altruistic.
[02:13] (Doobshaw) Lol the beast america is me
[02:13] (GuestMe`) You sink money into Africa, guess where it ends up?
[02:13] (GuestMe`) Stolen
[02:14] (Doobshaw) That is who I am
[02:14] (emil^^) astrodog - we dont force people to becoem lutheran - but we help this region out - and yes we do save lives
[02:14] (GuestMe`) IN the hands of war lords
[02:14] (cpm80) patch actually they are - western food aid depresses the prices of african crops
[02:14] (cpm80) for example
[02:14] (patch6) pretty much
[02:14] (Doobshaw) me me me
[02:14] (cpm80) who will buy food from african farmers if we ship them food
[02:14] (patch6) the robber barons in power take that which is intended for the destitute
[02:14] (cpm80) why do you think they grow coffee and export it
[02:14] (Astrodog) emil: That's great... provided you understand that its not being done to help the people, its being done to gain converts.
[02:14] (cpm80) lol
[02:14] (GuestMe`) I don't like funding African war lords anymore so they can buy all this crap at their little camps and pretend their on top of the world
[02:14] (GuestMe`) While they slaughter millions
[02:15] (TWThomas) Doobshaw : I can get you a woman if you want me too ?
[02:15] (bud`) one of my fav. 'help the poor minorities®' situations is the 9th ward in new orleans. this place got creamed by hurrican betsy, then by katrina, it never gets repaired, it deliberately gets left alone so celebs and wanabe politicians can come down and learn just how much rebuilding needs to be done =~(
[02:15] (patch6) then you have dirtbags like mugabe saying that his people are poor because they "don't work hard enough"
[02:15] (Doobshaw) Lol I need to brush my teeth with shaved off down quills
[02:15] (emil^^) astrodog - my church does what it does to help these people out - a few dollars here doesn't mean much - but a few thousand dollars in uganda makes a world of difference and like it or not - i am certain they are better off cuz of our donations
[02:15] (patch6) it has nothing to do with him printing obscene amounts of money to fund his ventures
[02:15] (patch6) it's the public's fault
[02:15] (Astrodog) emil: Once again, I never claimed they aren't.
[02:15] (Doobshaw) Alas the americas will be in the back seat
[02:15] (Astrodog) It is, however, important to understand that your church does not do these things to help the people. It does them to hopefully get them to convert.
[02:16] (emil^^) astrodog - well i do view this as a means to make the world better - i wish more people did the same........
[02:16] (Doobshaw) oh well
[02:16] (Astrodog) If they couldn't preach while they did it, they'd stop doing it.
[02:16] (GuestMe`) Indeed. The poor along with the reason so much money sunk over time has had little effect is simple .. they hardly see it. It gets taken, stolen, or just lost in U.N red tape or their own goverments
[02:16] (GuestMe`) So why WHY send more?
[02:16] (patch6) because the people are guilted into
[02:16] (patch6) doing so
[02:16] (GuestMe`) Well that is a shame
[02:17] (patch6) they'll never address the cause, only the symptoms
[02:17] (cpm80) food aid hurts africa
[02:17] (patch6) it's like curing a cancer by putting a wet towel on the person's head
[02:17] (cpm80) sending clothes hurts africa
[02:17] (cpm80) africa is like a giant welfare continent
[02:17] (emil^^) cpm80- so we need to let people starve then - that is the humane thing ehh?
[02:18] (Doobshaw) #politics forgets That's the point
[02:18] (GuestMe`) Nothing hurts Africa more right now than the asshole durtbag warlords and corrupt goverment officials
[02:18] (cpm80) its like cabrini green on a whole continent
[02:18] (Astrodog) emil: According to Rand, which is assume what cpm is considering, it would be better to get them to grow their own food.
[02:18] (Astrodog) *what I assume
[02:18] (patch6) their governments need to follow the free market capitalist ideals, first by stabilizing their respective currencies (which alone requires a relinquishing of powers that will never happen peacefully)
[02:18] (cpm80) yes Astrodog
[02:18] (emil^^) look atlas shurgged was a fun book - fountain head too............but ack if you take aynd as a end all - you're on crack
[02:18] (cpm80) and patch
[02:19] (GuestMe`) patch6: True, but what about the dozens of warlords and different gang camps all over the place?
[02:19] (cpm80) emil im not i was talking about altruism
[02:19] (cpm80) her critique of it is right on
[02:19] (GuestMe`) patch6: The ones that recruit kids, rape, slaughter, steal
[02:19] (Doobshaw) congress loves a new favorite
[02:19] (GuestMe`) Shouldn't they be addressed to?
[02:19] (emil^^) well - what the money we give to uganda is making a difference - like it or not
[02:19] (cpm80) well i have to get up and fly to las vegas in 2.5 hours
[02:19] (patch6) their crimes should be made public, and they should be judged
[02:19] (Astrodog) emil: Once again, the claim is that the money you're giving them, prevents them from making their own.
[02:20] (patch6) by those they have oppressed
[02:20] (GuestMe`) ouch
[02:20] (cpm80) you kids have fun
[02:20] (Doobshaw) astrodog is an imprerative
[02:20] (GuestMe`) lol
[02:20] (GuestMe`) patch6: That would be interesting, yet rather graphic to watch
[02:20] (emil^^) astrodog - see that is a misnomer and i dont like that much - i understand tho where your'e coming from
[02:20] (GuestMe`) hehe
[02:20] (cpm80) solve the worldz problems before the morning ok
[02:20] (patch6) I can't imagine
[02:20] (Doobshaw) it's the 1970s here
[02:20] (emil^^) what we're doing is building buisness - we're creating industry
[02:20] (Astrodog) emil: I never made the claim that altruism was bad.
[02:20] (Doobshaw) Astrodog has to answer back, but we'll let him slide
[02:20] (Astrodog) I just claimed that the actions of your church were not altruistic.
[02:20] (Astrodog) :P
[02:20] (emil^^) you can help those who need it most
[02:20] (GuestMe`) patch6: If that were ever the case, I think a smart bomb or two they would pray for
[02:21] (GuestMe`) patch6: hehe
[02:21] (Astrodog) emil: That's the thing.
[02:21] (emil^^) astrodog - i think it is in the best intest of these people
[02:21] (emil^^) we're helping them as much as we can........
[02:21] (patch6) I just know that there is a lot of entrenched scum running the show over there
[02:21] (GuestMe`) True
[02:21] (Astrodog) Your church does not help them, because they need help. Your church helps them because they might convert. While its a net benifit... it is not an altruistic action.
[02:21] (GuestMe`) I can agree to that
[02:21] (Doobshaw) 1960s
[02:22] (patch6) they have blood on their hands, and are not going to succumb to diplomatic pillow-talk
[02:22] (emil^^) astrodog - so then i guess, churches are just well - greedy to help people who are starving then?
[02:22] (Doobshaw) 1984 is an overrated sci-fi date
[02:22] (Astrodog) emil: In a sense, they want the converts.
[02:22] (emil^^) and you also dont stop to think that well......perhaps sharing our faith isn't a greedy thing, perhaps we mean the best? or is that against your mores?
[02:23] (Astrodog) emil: If your church could not preach, while it did this, it would stop doing it.
[02:23] (Astrodog) emil: Have I claimed its bad? No.
[02:23] (Astrodog) I've simply claimed that it's not altruistic.
[02:23] (emil^^) i guess you think sharing faith is a bad thing.....
[02:23] (Astrodog) Sharing your faith is not good, or bad.
[02:24] (Doobshaw) CCTV is a problem for the UK folks
[02:24] (emil^^) well as i see it sharing hope...is a very good thing
[02:24] (Astrodog) Sharing hope...
[02:24] (bud`) Doobshaw that all started when i was over there... around 1990
[02:24] (bud`) they put up a few cams
[02:25] (Astrodog) emil: Lets say the people there, sent you a letter, saying, "Ya know... we really like all of the nice things you're helping us build... but enough with the God stuff. We're sick of it."
[02:25] (bud`) to catch the holligans fighting outside the pubs
[02:25] (emil^^) i guess if your'e an athiest or against religion for some reason - yes - i can see sharing relgion can be viewed as something greedy or wrong
[02:25] (Astrodog) Your church would simply stop helping them.
[02:25] (Astrodog) emil: Did I claim it was greedy, or wrong?
[02:25] (Astrodog) You keep making strawmen, to avoid the fundamental fact that its not altruism.
[02:26] (Doobshaw) UK has some problems. Too bad. i guess you're gettting a new guy now. Gordon Brown
[02:26] (emil^^) astrodog - well keep in mind i am a christian and yes i do think our large donations to this community in uganda is a very veyr good thing.........and yes i do think sharing our faith (weather they accept it or not) at least we give this this option
[02:26] (patch6) true altruism doesn't exist, but mutual benefit is a fine substitute
[02:26] (Astrodog) Did I say it wasn't a good thing?
[02:26] (Doobshaw) Sorry, I think religion is a fake.
[02:26] (Doobshaw) I am an athiest
[02:26] (Astrodog) I already said its a good thing. Its simply not altruistic.
[02:27] (emil^^) well alturistic in my mind - means doing what we think is best..........weather they embrace lutheranism or not - that's thier call not mine
[02:27] (Astrodog) emil: That's not what altruism is.
[02:28] (Doobshaw) I support my neighbors and my family faculties.. Mexico for life. Our neighbor.
[02:28] (emil^^) and yes regardless we help them as best we can
[02:28] (Astrodog) Altruism is, effectively, helping someone for nothing in return.
[02:28] (Astrodog) In the case of your church, they gain converts, by helping.
[02:28] (emil^^) astroddog perhaps altrusism is a term we may disagree upon
[02:28] (Astrodog) If they didn't... they'd stop helping.
[02:28] (Doobshaw) you want to make love to the second daughter?
[02:29] (Astrodog) emil: Then you're using a braindead definition. A corporation generally does what it thinks is right, too... but they are not altruistic.
[02:29] (Astrodog) They do it for the money. You do it for the souls, basically.
[02:29] (Astrodog) ;)
[02:29] (emil^^) astrodog - we help as best we can - does sharing our beliefs make our donatiosn less meaningful? and why can't we give and also simply share what we belive?
[02:30] (Doobshaw) who in mexico values real men? Men who go off on their own enterprise. Men who work hard core to the bone ain't shit if they don't have their own enterprise.
[02:30] (Doobshaw) whatever
[02:30] (Astrodog) emil: When the sharing is contingent upon sharing your beliefs... yes, that does make the donation less meaningful, because it is no longer being done to help the people. Its being done to convert them.
[02:30] (Doobshaw) trying to help
[02:31] (emil^^) astrodog - christianity can't be forced............to claim that is just wrong
[02:31] (Astrodog) Yes, claiming that would be wrong. Good thing I didn't, eh?
[02:31] (Astrodog) Stop acting like I've said things, that I haven't said, or implied.
[02:32] (emil^^) well - my church likes to help - if they accept christianity or not - that is thier decesion
[02:32] (Doobshaw) Astrodog: I hope these men are committed to business and not gans.
[02:32] (Doobshaw) gangs
[02:32] (Astrodog) emil: Lets say your church could not share its beliefs, for one reason or another. Do you think they'd still help?
[02:32] (Doobshaw) If gangs are involved they can make money for a week or two. If they are for real it can for the long ter
[02:32] (Doobshaw) term
[02:33] (emil^^) astrodog - i wotn lie - we give to communities which already have a lutheran church............but we help our own
[02:33] (Astrodog) emil: Alright.
[02:33] (Astrodog) That's what makes it not altruistic.
[02:33] (Doobshaw) The US government doesn't intervene in the LA gang scene.
[02:34] (emil^^) astrodog - i find sharing with my brother and sisters to be just, weather you disagree or not
[02:34] (Doobshaw) I want to help people be productive
[02:34] (Doobshaw) I think illegal whatever is just bullshit
[02:34] (Astrodog) emil: Stop putting words in my mouth, or we're done.
[02:34] (Astrodog) I never said it wasn't just.
[02:34] (Doobshaw) We need to get businesses going
[02:34] (Astrodog) I said it wasn't altruistic.
[02:35] (emil^^) astrodog - so what is wrong with lutherans sharing with lutherans?
[02:35] (Astrodog) Nothing.
[02:35] (emil^^) or is this just a semantic issue
[02:35] (Astrodog) It simply isn't altruistic.
[02:35] (Doobshaw) Mexicans don't realize that they are a huge source of new stores
[02:36] (Doobshaw) they can buy out the competition
[02:36] (emil^^) well astrodog - i dont think you mean to be hostile and i think you may mean well - but i am proud that my congregation shares with those who are less fortunate
[02:36] (emil^^) and in american dollars what means so little to us - our dollars go a long ways when in africa
[02:37] (Astrodog) emil: There's nothing to be proud of, though. Your congregation does it, to support other members of your church. The action is taken entirely within the self-interest of the church.
[02:37] (bud`) i think hes just saying altruism is like going and giving a homeless person $20 and never intending to follow-up/see them again. whereas churches tend to move in and expect resuls
[02:37] (Doobshaw) Mexico willl always bee the USA's sacred Neighbor.
[02:37] (emil^^) astrodog - given that statment do you think it better that the community in uganda we support would be better off starving?
[02:37] (Astrodog) emil: No. Did I claim it would be?
[02:38] (Astrodog) Its good that companies employ people, so they don't starve. That doesn't make the corporation altruistic.
[02:38] (emil^^) so we have nothing to be proud of - when to comes to saving a community?
[02:38] (Astrodog) emil: Nope. Because you did it, to help your church.
[02:39] (Astrodog) Just like I would have nothing to be proud of, if I saved a community, and also made them all listen to my atheism spiel.
[02:39] (Doobshaw) Mexico will never care. Get over it, USA
[02:39] (Doobshaw) Facts hurt
[02:39] (emil^^) astrodog - i dont get you - we do our best to help people..........mbut then you state: (Astrodog) emil: There's nothing to be proud of, though. Your congregation does it, to support other members of your church. The action is taken entirely within the self-interest of the church.
[02:39] (Astrodog) emil: What your donations accomplish in Africa, benifit the lutheren church.
[02:40] (emil^^) would you rather these people starve and have no health clinic?
[02:40] (Astrodog) As such, those actions are not altruistic.
[02:40] (Astrodog) Goddamnit.
[02:40] (Astrodog) Have I said that?
[02:40] (Doobshaw) I have a man-crush on Fausto Carmona
[02:40] (emil^^) well so alturism is bad i can only guess is what you think.......if that is what we are all about
[02:40] (Agape`) emil^^: you do have to admit that your church is attempting to spread the sect's influence within africa with the missionaries...
[02:40] (Doobshaw) Lol
[02:40] (Astrodog) emil: You put words in my mouth one more time, and you're going on ignore. This is absurd.
[02:40] (Astrodog) DID I SAY IT WAS BAD?
[02:40] (Astrodog) For fuck's sake.
[02:41] (Astrodog) emil: The action your church has taken is morally netural. It is not good, or bad.
[02:41] (Doobshaw) The Cleveland Indians
[02:41] (Doobshaw) Is Chief Wahoo Racist?
[02:41] (Astrodog) It has, in effect, traded with the people in Uganda. They've given you their time, and in some cases, their faith. You have given them food, medical, whatever.
[02:41] (Agape`) you may call it saving souls, but those of us that don't share your beliefs call it preaching and converting. the only plus side is if the congregation ever found out the missionaries were withholding services from "unrepentant heathens", they'd probably practically call for blood...
[02:41] (Doobshaw) It's not for me to decide
[02:41] (emil^^) astrodog - well i wonder - you seem to be aginst missionarism........
[02:41] (Astrodog) emil: ...
[02:42] (Astrodog) I never said that, either.
[02:42] (emil^^) astrodog - well is it okay our church supports this community in yoru eyes?
[02:42] (Astrodog) emil: Absolutly.
[02:42] (Astrodog) Did I ever claim it wasn't?
[02:42] (Astrodog) Your church has effectively made a trade with that community.
[02:42] (emil^^) astrodog - thatnk for saying so - i was wondering
[02:43] (Doobshaw) The Cleveland Indians should represent native americans somehow, and do it with class
[02:43] (Astrodog) emil: While it is okay for your church to do that... it is not an altruistic act.
[02:43] (emil^^) i like to think we have saved children from starving or dying of disease, i like to be proud we have created a medical clinic
[02:43] (Astrodog) Just like its okay for me to trade with you, for food, services, whatever.
[02:43] (Agape`) emil^^: so long as they don't withhold food and medicine from those that don't convert, I'm mostly neutral. the history of missionaries is often one involving quite a lot of blood and pain among those that they ostensibly "helped" in a region.
[02:43] (Doobshaw) Why is it that Venezuelans like baseball?
[02:43] (Astrodog) emil: But you have nothing to be proud of. You made an equitable trade with that community.
[02:44] (emil^^) agape of COURSE NOT..........we help the entire community
[02:44] (Astrodog) There's nothing morally good, or bad.
[02:44] (Astrodog) emil: Just like if I bought a loaf of bread from you.
[02:44] (Astrodog) Morality doesn't enter into it.
[02:44] (Astrodog) We simply made a trade that we felt was fair.
[02:44] (Agape`) emil^^: but honestly it's not going to improve most of these shitholes until the countries stop fucking up their own citizens. in many of the worst crapholes on the planet, people are afraid to get more than a subsistence because the government will just take everything from them if they see success.
[02:44] (emil^^) well - we dont do this for profit......
[02:45] (Astrodog) emil: Yes you do. The fact that its not monitary profit is irrelevent.
[02:45] (Doobshaw) Jhonny peralta is my favorite shorstop... I love V-Mart and grady sizemore
[02:45] (Agape`) emil^^: question, do you hope that the people the missionaries deal with convert?
[02:45] (Astrodog) You give them free crap. They give you their time, and in some cases, their faith.
[02:46] (Doobshaw) Travis Hafner is an overweight steroids walk machine
[02:46] (Astrodog) emil: If they stopped giving you their time, and faith, you'd stop giving them free crap. And if you stopped giving them free crap, they'd stop giving you their time, and faith.
[02:46] (Astrodog) Its a trade.
[02:46] (bud`) i disagree
[02:47] (Doobshaw) Cleveland is going to beat Boston for the AL crown
[02:47] (bud`) i think churches/faiths have people who just attract people who want to go and help, regardless of the benefits
[02:47] (emil^^) back sorry , had to take a leak
[02:47] (emil^^) well i guess i view this more as nepotism moreso than i view it as it other terms
[02:48] (Doobshaw) Fausto Carmona is the best pitcher I've witnessed this year
[02:48] (emil^^) astrodog - no they were lutheran - so our congregation shared
[02:48] (bud`) if i got pissed of with society and wanted to go maybe help a poor village i'd look to a church. doesnt mean im going to push some agenda on the people
[02:48] (emil^^) yeah i guess nepotism is perhaps the better term
[02:49] (emil^^) agape - correct............but helping those who already share your beliefs isn't sucha bad thing
[02:49] (Doobshaw) Fausto was a AAA guy at the start of this season.
[02:49] (Astrodog) emil: Do you believe that it is in the best interests of the luthern church, to have more people follow the lutheren faith?
[02:49] (Astrodog) emil: No one has said its a bad thing.
[02:50] (Doobshaw) We have CC, Westbrook, Lee, Carmona,
[02:50] (emil^^) astrodog - of course - but i kinda resent the fact the assumption we 'buy people off'
[02:51] (emil^^) my church didn't pick a random community in uganda and say - hey either be lutheran or blah blah balh
[02:51] (Doobshaw) Church is a fake excuse
[02:51] (emil^^) the community we supported in uganda was a lutheran community already
[02:51] (Doobshaw) so what
[02:51] (Astrodog) emil: You DID buy them off, though. You simply did it nicely.
[02:51] (bud`) oh jeebus
[02:51] (emil^^) so we helped our brothers and sisters - so altursitc if you dislike that term - then i guess you can call it nepotism
[02:52] (emil^^) and if lutherans looking out for one another is someone percieved to be dishonest or bad - wow - i dont belive you really think that
[02:52] (Astrodog) Its not nepotism, either.
[02:52] (Astrodog) Look.
[02:52] (Astrodog) I never said it was dishonest, or bad.
[02:53] (Doobshaw) have real thoughts, and go to church if you need to. I'd reccomend reproducing if you consider yourself above average.
[02:54] (Doobshaw) Yo yo yo. american politics is nothing but respect :)
[02:54] (emil^^) i'm proud that lutherans look out for each other........i love this aspect of community - and it makes me proud
[02:54] (Doobshaw) Fake rituals aren't for real
[02:55] (bud`) assholes are
[02:55] (Astrodog) emil: Would you say that it is in the best interests of the lutheren church, for there to be more lutherens?
[02:56] (emil^^) astrodog - of course.........but that isn't greed.......
[02:56] (Astrodog) I never said it was.
[02:56] (emil^^) i truely belive that we need to witness to others.......that is called witnessing
[02:56] (Astrodog) And, as a result of your efforts in Uganda, do you believe that there are more lutherens, than there would otherwise be?
[02:57] (emil^^) astrodog maybe a few - they were already a lutheran community - with luck their wealth and caring will shed to others yes
[02:57] (Agape`) emil^^: you should probably look at it more as a mutual aid society if you're primarily helping lutherans out. but sending massive amounts of money to a country where there's a civil war or a confiscatory government is sending money down a shithole.
[02:58] (emil^^) agape - i simply want lutherans worldwide to have the best life they can - and a few dollars here equalls a few hundred dollars there
[02:58] (Astrodog) emil: Given that the community may have starved to death without help... its a safe bet that there are more lutherens, because of what you did.
[02:59] (emil^^) astrodog - not me alone .........no no, we our congregation wants to help our brothers and sisters
[02:59] (Astrodog) As a result, the lutheren church benifited from your donations, correct?
[02:59] (emil^^) no from our donations.......not mine - but yes as a result - we can help out others yes
[03:00] (Astrodog) Yes or no. Did the donations benifit the luthern church?
[03:00] (emil^^) benefit? well if you mean does our church perhaps bring more people to learn the word of christ perhaps yes
[03:01] (Astrodog) emil: Benefit. As in, aid. Help. Your donations assisted the other luthern church, in the general goal of most churches, to get more members. Correct?
[03:01] (emil^^) alturistic is the word i used and you are using - and is not teaching salvation in the best benefit of all from a christian viewpoint?
[03:02] (emil^^) yes we share - and help each other out..........and from a christian standpoint - teaching the word of God is not something we would quantify as a currency
[03:03] (Astrodog) emil: Their time, however, IS something they can trade.
[03:03] (bud`) Astrodog I think youre just being a bully =P
[03:03] (Doobshaw) Better get inside the kingdom and close the door
[03:03] (Astrodog) You get their time, which you use to attempt to conver them.
[03:03] (Doobshaw) lol I am not religious.
[03:03] (bud`) Doobshaw we;; d'oh
[03:04] (emil^^) from my understanding witnessing is not a currency - we can only share the word - if you accept Jesus that is something you need to make your own decesion upon
[03:04] (Doobshaw) Better get inside the "kingdom" and close the door
[03:04] (Astrodog) emil: The currency is their time, listening to you witness.
[03:05] (emil^^) astrodog - it's up the person if they accept our beliefs......pure and simple
[03:05] (Doobshaw) MLB pitching is won't stop
[03:05] (Astrodog) emil: ...
[03:05] (Doobshaw) are you from the Yankees?
[03:05] (bud`) emil^^ the point is altruism you would a person or people out, move on never expecting to ever be involved with them again. its helping for the sake of helping, not to build something or be a part of what your help has given. Can you agree with this point that is fact or you gonna keep on giving him reason to bully you?
[03:06] (emil^^) i'm an american - i know many dont belive in my faith - that is thier decision - i dont mind this - it's called free will
[03:06] (Doobshaw) Free will in ameria is universal
[03:06] (emil^^) bug - but you're wrong on this - we donate to lutheran communities throughout the world who wnat our help
[03:06] (Doobshaw) it is helped along by money
[03:07] (bud`) emil^^ youre not getting the point =)
[03:07] (Astrodog) emil: The point is that your action is not "Good".
[03:07] (Astrodog) Its not "Bad" either.
[03:07] (bud`) altruism, you help a person or people out, and never expect to be part of the result.
[03:07] (bud`) its not bad
[03:07] (emil^^) i give money to my church to help other lutherans.........yes.........
[03:08] (Doobshaw) Everyone who participates in our baseball compeition is also part of free will in American sports
[03:08] (Astrodog) emil: Right.
[03:08] (Astrodog) Would you donate money to a... lets say, Bhuddist group, that did the same thing?
[03:09] (emil^^) astrodog - i do donate to other charities yes - but i prefer to give my monies to help out those of my faith yes
[03:09] (bud`) if i go and give some homeless lady $50 to get a hotel room for the week and a shower and food, and never expect nor want to see her or preach to her again, thats altruism. now, if like your church Im going to move in with her and make her a mission, sorry its not
[03:09] (Astrodog) Why do you prefer to help people of your faith?
[03:09] (Doobshaw) Yankees pay alot of money
[03:09] (Doobshaw) So do Red Sox
[03:10] (Agape`) Astrodog: people in general sympathize more with people they can identify with. people who identify with their faith in general are going to have more empathy for those who ostensibly share that faith.
[03:10] (Doobshaw) But the Indians are the best.
[03:10] (Astrodog) Agape: Heh.
[03:10] (emil^^) astrodog - i simply give my money where i think it does the most good - giving to the LCMS is a safe bet....
[03:10] (Astrodog) emil: So if it turned out another organization was more effective... you'd donate to it, instead?
[03:10] * ShadowAKF is now known as ShadowWRK
[03:11] (emil^^) astrodog - well i do give to the salvation army and also to the NorthEast Community Fund where i live
[03:11] (Doobshaw) Sizemore, Blake, Haner, Martinez, Garko,
[03:11] (Astrodog) emil: You aren't answering my question.
[03:11] (Doobshaw) Hafner
[03:12] (emil^^) astrodog yes i think we should donate to charities - but i love how the monies i donate to my church go such a long long way when it comes to american dollars in uganda
[03:12] (emil^^) it's like - a few dollars here - wow - in uganda - we can really make a difference
[03:12] (Astrodog) emil: Lets say it turned out, that while LCMS gave them a medical center... The Sikh Evangelical League could give them an entire hospital, complete with world class trauma team., and AIDS researchers.
[03:12] (Astrodog) Would you donate to the Sikhs, instead?
[03:13] (Astrodog) (Knowing that the Sikhs would preach their faith, as a result)
[03:13] (emil^^) astrodog - well - you nailed me there - yes i would prolly donate a bit, but yes i like to support the LCMS
[03:13] (Doobshaw) in two months I see: Sizemore, BarField, Hafner, Martinez, Garko
[03:13] (flmcon) Astrodog what is Sikhs ?
[03:13] (Astrodog) flm: An Indian (India) religion.
[03:14] (emil^^) mid 20th centuray alternative religion
[03:14] (Doobshaw) Chief Wahoo the racist mascott i
[03:14] (Astrodog) Bit older than that... but close enough.
[03:14] (Astrodog) ;)
[03:14] (Doobshaw) People don't care about chief wahoo
[03:14] (emil^^) astrodog yeah you're right - of course i like to share share my faith
[03:14] (Doobshaw) I am aware of Chief
[03:14] (flmcon) Astrodog are they strapping bombs and blowing them selves up in public places ?
[03:14] (Astrodog) flm: No... Sikhs are generally pacifist.
[03:15] (rondd) Astro do you donate to siks whatever it is ?
[03:15] (emil^^) yes sikhs are hard core pacifists actually
[03:15] (Astrodog) Its an amalgmation of Hindu, and Bhuddist beliefs.
[03:15] (emil^^) he was just making a point
[03:15] (Astrodog) rond: I don't think the "Sikh Evangelical League" exists.
[03:15] (Astrodog) Given that Sikhs are not evangelical.
[03:15] (Astrodog) :P
[03:15] (rondd) do you donate to charities ?
[03:15] (Astrodog) rondd: Yes.
[03:15] (flmcon) Astrodog Ok I don't mind if the blow them selves up, as long as they do it in a privet p[lace where they don't harm anyone else.
[03:15] (Agape^) which religion is it that requires their adherents to wear a knife pretty much at all times?
[03:15] (Doobshaw) SHould Cleveland Get rid of Cheif Wahoo mascott?
[03:16] (Doobshaw) I want to get rid of chief waho
[03:16] (Astrodog) rondd: Not for altuistic reasons, though. *shrug*
[03:16] (emil^^) astrodog - i see what you mean, and yes i do support my faith - but yes i am strongly proud what my relgion has done to help out those who need help the most
[03:16] (Doobshaw) CHief wahoo isn't so bad
[03:17] (Agape^) Doobshaw: do you see any amerinds protesting any of the cartoonish amerind mascots? anywhere? at any time? in general the people protesting them are white liberals who don't want other people to be "cruel" to the "poor native americans".
[03:17] (Astrodog) emil: Let me give you an example.
[03:17] (Doobshaw) CC doesn't care
[03:17] (flmcon) Agape I don't konow,, What one in it ?
[03:17] (Doobshaw) ion
[03:17] (emil^^) astrodog - speak
[03:17] (Astrodog) I donate ~5% of what I make, to the Tulsa Area United Way.
[03:17] (rondd) Astro what other reason is there than altruistic ?
[03:17] (Agape^) flmcon: I asked, I am not sure which religion it is.
[03:17] (Astrodog) However, I only do that, because it makes my community a better place to live.
[03:17] (flmcon) email what one is that ?
[03:17] (Doobshaw) Fausto Carmona ) CC in my opinion.
[03:18] (Astrodog) If I didn't live here... I wouldn't donate to it.
[03:18] (rondd) Astro united way is notorious for waisting donation
[03:18] (bud`) church activities are not altruism
[03:18] (rondd) + 's
[03:18] (emil^^) astrodog - i actually do tithe - (one of the very very few) tho i dont make much i do give 10% to my church - and i can donate time as well to our charities
[03:18] (Astrodog) rondd: Eh. My dad works for this one, and is on their board when he's got the free time to run for it.
[03:19] (emil^^) err i do donate time as well**
[03:19] (rondd) My previous wife did a temp job at UW headquarters so that the women could have UW parties all week
[03:19] (Doobshaw) I pitched a no-hitter and batted 1000 in 11 year old league
[03:19] (flmcon) email Baptist ?
[03:19] (emil^^) no i'm lutheran LCMS
[03:19] (rondd) and through the years they have been in the news about there waistful ways
[03:19] (flmcon) email Good ,
[03:19] (GunDogs69) Russia plans 2 builtd nukes in Birma with chinese government and indian ones
[03:19] (Astrodog) rondd: Yeah. The national UW is pretty crappy.
[03:19] (emil^^) i donate time with an arm of our church - called the northeast community fund - we pick up food and deliver it to those who need it
[03:20] (Astrodog) emil: I am glad that you enjoy doing that.
[03:20] (emil^^) astrodog - i think it's the least i can do
[03:21] (Doobshaw) Look at me, just another dream theory.
[03:21] (emil^^) astrodog - and our see our limitied funds at st. johns.........so this is why i so strongly support what we can do in uganda to our sister church
[03:21] (emil^^) a 100 dollars here doesnt' buy much - but a 100 dollars in uganda wow - we can really really really make a difference i love this
[03:21] (flmcon) GunDogs69 where did you get that information ?
[03:22] (Astrodog) emil: I would donate my time... except in the time I spent volunteering, I'd generally make enough that additional income's 5% would probably cover paying someone to do it. Heh.
[03:22] (emil^^) astrodog - i just think it's right to simply want to help and make an effort - %%%'s dont matter.....
[03:23] (emil^^) i love voulenterring going house to house to pick up old furniture and taking it to those who need it
[03:23] (emil^^) for those who dont play religion i dont mind - but i mean you can do what you can to help
[03:23] (Astrodog) emil: The ammounts are all that matter. 1,000 kids donating a buck a piece, while heartwarming, gives the charity less than 1 rich guy, donating 10,000.
[03:23] (flmcon) Astrodog I will give you a call on my next down time ,, I will do your 5% for you.
[03:23] * BeigeE02 is now known as BeigeE
[03:24] (flmcon) Astrodog Or I will get someone to do it for your 5% and make a profit to.
[03:24] (Astrodog) flm: Hahahaha.
[03:24] (emil^^) astrodog - this is why i love my church supporting our siter church in uganda - this is not somethign to to be defeneded - this is something to have pride upon
[03:25] (emil^^) a few dollars here - really makes a world of difference - at least i have a local group who makes this a cause
[03:25] (Astrodog) emil: Its not something that needs to be defended.
[03:25] (Astrodog) Nor is it something that there is any reason to be proud of, outside of the Lutheren Church.
[03:25] (flmcon) email are you going to school this morning ?
[03:25] (Doobshaw) You might as well say fuck me 'cause I'm gonna keep on loving you. Sleeping is the only love. I had this friend. His name was Mark with a C. His sister was like heat coming off the back of an old TV.
[03:26] (emil^^) flcon - it's emil and no i'm 30 and i'm self employeed
[03:26] (flmcon) Doobshaw Rong room.
[03:26] (Doobshaw) har har har
[03:27] (Doobshaw) The doobshaw is for real
[03:27] (flmcon) Sorry Emil Self emploied,, LOL that means your full time job is looking for the next job,, I can relate to that.
[03:27] (emil^^) flmcon - whatever
[03:28] (Doobshaw) You have something against fausto carmona
[03:28] (flmcon) emil did I say something to ofend you ?
[03:28] (flmcon) Emil I am " self emploied" to
[03:29] (_3Josephs) flmcon, is it because your spelling is so bad you can't get hired anywhere?
[03:29] (emil^^) flmcon - 1) learn to speak english and 2) when you say ; Self emploied,, LOL that means your full time job is looking for the next job,' realize who you're talking to
[03:29] (bud`) Christ.. If you're gonna rag on someone just to be an asshole at least type well
[03:29] (bud`) =P
[03:29] (flmcon) doobshaw what is fausto Carmona ?
[03:29] (Doobshaw) bud is robot bud
[03:29] * bud` shits on Doobshaw
[03:29] (emil^^) and if you are hard up for a job - dont talk to me if you're gonna be harsh like that plz
[03:30] (lolez) What's the difference between anarchism and libertarianism
[03:30] (Doobshaw) you are the best robot, non-caring dude
[03:30] (flmcon) #josephs No I pay a Cexitary to do my spelling.
[03:31] (flmcon) emil Sorry I didn't realize you were so sensitive .
[03:31] (emil^^) flmcon - i dont mind - just if your'e gonna insult me be a bit more original
[03:32] (emil^^) i'm not that senstaive either - i do have a thick skin
[03:32] (flmcon) emil I wasn't trying to insult you. I am sorry you took it that way,
[03:33] (emil^^) well you said ' Self emploied,, LOL that means your full time job is looking for the next job,, I can relate to that.'
[03:33] (Doobshaw) Giuliani for real!
[03:33] (emil^^) be honest
[03:33] (Doobshaw) For real is the best way
[03:33] (emil^^) i love my job - and no i dont have health insurance - but at least i set my own hours :))
[03:34] (GunDogs69) emil^^ try 2 steal
[03:34] (Doobshaw) We got this NYC guy in check. We know him. Lets see how he does against McCain, the whacko
[03:34] (GunDogs69) how old r u ?
[03:34] (GunDogs69) I'm 23
[03:34] (flmcon) emill What I ment was I am in the Same boat,, And I joke about my job being, Looking for a job all the time,, And again Sorry , No need to be so thinskinned.
[03:34] (emil^^) i've done the coorporate thing..........blah
[03:34] (patch6) lolez: anarchists oppose any kind of compulsory government (state), whereas libertarians tend to think of a state as a necessary evil, and one that should protect the public's pursuit of life, liberty and property
[03:34] (Doobshaw) Rock on, Pilgrims
[03:35] (flmcon) Emil You aren't possible a Democrat are you ? that could be why you are so thin skinned.
[03:35] (patch6) to paraphrase tightly
[03:35] (Doobshaw) I smell fake
[03:35] (Doobshaw) dont let me down
[03:35] (emil^^) flmco - label labels - blah...........
[03:35] (Zexio) do any republicans actually support guilianni?
[03:35] (Zexio) I mean seriously
[03:36] (flmcon) Patch6 what is a "compulsory gument" ?
[03:36] (emil^^) zexio guilini is the the reps only hope imho
[03:36] (patch6) a required government
[03:36] (Doobshaw) y nature is a fraud
[03:36] (patch6) mandatory, obligatory
[03:36] (bud`) oh what a load of complete shite =P
[03:36] (flmcon) Zexio Do any Socialist Not Support Hillary Clinton Rodhm ?
[03:36] (Zexio) emil^^: I dont see how he is going to get nominated. I personally dont think a republican has any hope of winning in 2008
[03:37] (emil^^) zex - i think bush jr. has jaded most of america when it comes to the rep ticket
[03:37] (Zexio) I agree. But its just part of the cycle
[03:37] (Doobshaw) OSX is a gay OS. I reccoment linux, but I own on top of lal this bull shit
[03:37] (emil^^) i just pray to god hillary doens't get the nod for the dems
[03:37] (Zexio) in another 8 years it will be the rights turn again
[03:38] (flmcon) Patch6 Every and All Governmet is Required,, Fact is Government is Nessesary,, A nessary Evil, But Nessary.
[03:38] (flmcon) nessesary
[03:38] (Zexio) emil^^: I dont think she will personally
[03:38] (patch6) and anarchists think that it is not
[03:38] (Doobshaw) Good night, slaves
[03:38] (Zexio) I also dont think obama can get elected...
[03:38] (flmcon) 3joseps Sorry about the spelling My sexitary is busy right now.
[03:38] (emil^^) zexcio i dunno know weird that i hope obama gets the dem nod
[03:39] (Zexio) I think the support of him behind closed doors (or behind the curtains) is much smaller than what it appears to be
[03:39] (Doobshaw) Wow. LAke erie doesn't mean that much,
[03:39] (emil^^) guiliani i rather like
[03:39] (Zexio) emil^^: thats as likely as guilianni getting the nomination
[03:39] (Zexio) I want a Mccain/edwards ticket
[03:39] (patch6) that belief has shown to be inviable throughout history, since anarchist societys are always taken over by warring factions
[03:39] (Zexio) but I know that will never happen
[03:40] (Doobshaw) losers
[03:40] (emil^^) mccaian is alreayd fucked - he's a bush clone
[03:40] (Zexio) no, he is not
[03:40] (Zexio) he has real convictions but unlike bush, he is intelligent and capable of admiting when he is wrong and changing direction
[03:41] (Zexio) I think he would be a fine president
[03:41] (emil^^) well lets not compare peeps to bush
[03:41] (Zexio) true
[03:41] (Zexio) thats a rather low bar
[03:41] (flmcon) elil LOL McCain Is a crazy man,, He Might even be crazy enough to do something to Stop the Evil Muslims ar at least run them back in to their caves.
[03:41] (Zexio) You really think obama could get nominated though?
[03:42] (Zexio) and if he is nominated, you think he could get elected?
[03:42] (Zexio) flmcon: he nuke them if he had to
[03:42] (bud`) isnt giuliani the one who screamed at some muslim to gtfo his speech
[03:42] (emil^^) mccain in debate #1 - saying 'send the bin laden to ....' *****big smile**** that' nearly as bad as he WWF chant from.....whats his name
[03:42] (Zexio) but only if he had to
[03:42] (flmcon) Zexio If he does Hillary will have hime killed.
[03:42] (emil^^) mccain is a bush jr.
[03:42] (Astrodog) Zex: Obama can win... if Hillary makes a big mistake,
[03:43] (Zexio) Astrodog: I'm sorry to say this, but I dont think most people that claim to support obama in public would vote for him in private
[03:43] (flmcon) Bud That would win my vote.
[03:43] (Zexio) same goes for hilary
[03:43] (emil^^) astrodog - obama is a far better dem candadite than hillary
[03:43] (Zexio) I agree
[03:43] (Astrodog) Zex: On the national level... it would depend entirely on the RNC canidate.
[03:43] (Zexio) Astrodog: against guiliani, obama would lose
[03:43] (Zexio) for sure
[03:43] (flmcon) Zexio you don't believe much in what people say in public do you ?
[03:43] (Zexio) In my opinion
[03:44] (Zexio) but then I dont think he can get nominated
[03:44] (emil^^) thomposon may havea chance in hell - but i think guiliani is the besty bet for rep's
[03:44] (patch6) ick
[03:44] (Astrodog) I think Obama would soundly trounce Mitt Romney, or Newet.
[03:44] (Astrodog) *Newt.
[03:44] (Astrodog) It'd be a good race with Guliani.
[03:44] (emil^^) is newt running?
[03:44] (Astrodog) emil: Hard to tell, its still early.
[03:44] (Zexio) emil^^: he is going to have to really twist and turn to get the far right to support him... pro-abortion, anti-gun, pro-gays that he is
[03:45] (flmcon) Zexio But you do have a point,, How many people will say they're a Socialist in public, Ad then They will go right out and vote democrat.
[03:45] (Astrodog) Zex: I think Guliani would lose the nations, because of a 3rd party canidate siphoning off the far right.
[03:45] (Zexio) Astrodog: good point.
[03:45] (Astrodog) Ala Bush Perot, or Gore Nader.
[03:45] (emil^^) green party/libertiarians do they even have the vote to get on the ticket?
[03:46] (Zexio) emil^^: they might
[03:46] (Zexio) but they wont steal mcuh from the dems
[03:46] (emil^^) lib's do typically get on..........but i dunno this round
[03:46] (bud`) too bad obama is a fucking crook. and too bad the media didnt bother to advertise it
[03:46] (Astrodog) emil: I think if Guliani gets the nomination, we'll see another repub run as an independant.
[03:46] (flmcon) Astrodog Who is Sihponing off votes ? I will Probably Vote Libertarian .
[03:47] (emil^^) astrodog - well sadly bush - has f'd the rep party - ......the iraq war alone is a major issue - doesnt' matter what we think
[03:47] (Zexio) flmcon: meaning you will vote for bill maher? :)
[03:47] (Astrodog) On the social side, Guliani may as well be a dem.
[03:47] (Zexio) he is
[03:47] (Zexio) but he is conservative in what really counts... financially
[03:47] (emil^^) i rather like guiliani - he's not 'per se' pro - abortion - he just belives in states rights
[03:47] (Zexio) I would support him 100%
[03:47] (Astrodog) Zex: I don't think a Republican has won, in the past 20-30 years, without the Christian Right's support.
[03:48] (Zexio) I dont give a crap about abortion or guns or gays
[03:48] (patch6) all of that "america's mayor" stuff is an emotional front for his wheeling and dealing.. you have his net worth exploding by 30 times since the event, and his law firm making deals with TxDOT to sell major highways to foreign interests for a pittance of what they will generate in tolls
[03:48] (Zexio) Astrodog: yeah its going to be really difficult for him just to get nominated
[03:48] (bud`) patch6 that never ever came from giulianis camp. that was all cnn
[03:48] (emil^^) guiliani - at least has 9/11 going for him - he was as nation hero - standing strong in the face of adversity
[03:48] (Astrodog) Zex: And once nominated, he's gonna have to work his ass off, to keep someone from hurting him on the right.
[03:48] (bud`) mindless b.s.
[03:49] (Zexio) patch6: so what? its bad to make a lot of money in this country? :)
[03:49] (Doobshaw) Jeremy accardo
[03:49] (patch6) selling out your own country?
[03:49] (patch6) those aren't his roads to sell
[03:49] (emil^^) if anyone but hillary wins - i think the u.s. will win at least in a small way
[03:49] (Doobshaw) US baseball patchers are still for real
[03:49] (Zexio) people dont really want to hear the truth about guilliani I'm sorry
[03:50] (Doobshaw) stop hating on the USA
[03:50] (Astrodog) At the same time, I think if both parties nominate extremists, we'll see Guilliani, or Liberman run independent.
[03:50] (patch6) that TxDOT deal was treasonous
[03:50] (emil^^) guiliani is as about as middle as it gets i think
[03:50] (Zexio) emil^^: I dont think hillary can win either
[03:50] (emil^^) zexio if she looses i'll be happy
[03:50] (Zexio) edwards is the most electable in my opinion
[03:50] (Doobshaw) The Big Show is so fair....
[03:51] (emil^^) obama is only 3 points ahead of hillary now - that scares me
[03:51] (Astrodog) Zex: I think Hillary would beat Guliani, just because all of her dirty laundry is already out... and has been for years.
[03:51] (Doobshaw) we got Japanese and Taiwanese
[03:51] (emil^^) astrodog - that really scares me
[03:51] (patch6) hillary's an out-in-the-open socialist
[03:51] (Zexio) emil^^: he certainly represents my views. DOnt waste my tax dollars, BE SMART ABOUT POLICY, be efficient, be tough on crime/immigration. WHile at the same time supporting individual freedoms (which include abortion and gay rights and all that otherbullshit that doesnt really affect me or my family)
[03:52] (Doobshaw) Ching Chong Wang is the NYY best pitcher
[03:52] (Astrodog) emil: I pretty much agree with Hillary on policy... but I'd prefer Obama.
[03:52] (Zexio) Astrodog: You think people would vote for him though?
[03:52] (Zexio) I'm not so sure
[03:52] (Astrodog) Zexio: Depends on who he ran against.
[03:52] (Zexio) everyone wants to be so PC
[03:52] (Zexio) and say that race doesnt matter
[03:52] (Zexio) but it does
[03:53] (Astrodog) Zexio: I think he'd beat Romney, or Guiliani.
[03:53] (Zexio) just like hillaries gender matter alot
[03:53] (Astrodog) Guliani would be close, though.
[03:53] (Doobshaw) Amerian Baseball is like Electrical engineering.
[03:53] (Zexio) Astrodog: I disagree. I think guiliani would beat him
[03:53] (emil^^) i pray guiliani gets the nod.............
[03:53] (Zexio) emil^^: me too
[03:53] (Zexio) either way we win
[03:53] (Astrodog) Zex: I don't, just because someone would run to the right of Guliani.
[03:53] (Zexio) even if we lose
[03:53] (Zexio) well
[03:53] (Zexio) is somone to the right of guiliani is nominated, they stand zero chance of getting elected in my view
[03:54] (Zexio) unless they resurect regan
[03:54] (Astrodog) Zex: Guiliani wouldn't get the Christain Right vote... and that's a 10% handicap, out of the gate.
[03:54] (Doobshaw) Wakfielf is luck
[03:54] (patch6) what
[03:54] (emil^^) astrodog - sure perhaps - but they still would vote rep if he was the candidite
[03:54] (Zexio) Astrodog: maybe he would... a lot of christians are feeling like bush didnt support them anyway
[03:54] (Zexio) so they know they score
[03:54] (Astrodog) emil: Not if someone ran to the right of Guliani.
[03:54] (emil^^) astrodog - who mitt??
[03:55] (Astrodog) emil: Mitt, or someone like Buchanan, who registers after the primary.
[03:55] (Zexio) I think christians (much like everyone else) are sick of the wedge issues
[03:55] (emil^^) mitt or pat have no hope of winnin the electoral vote - period - i'm sorry
[03:55] (Zexio) people care about their mortgage more than about the gays in san francisco
[03:55] (Astrodog) emil: They'd still run.
[03:55] (Zexio) when it comes down to it
[03:56] (Astrodog) emil: Because it'd force whoever did get the nod, to pander to the right.
[03:56] (Zexio) people care more about their son in iraq more than about some girl getting an abortion
[03:56] (emil^^) sure mitt could run - but it's like in 04 running kerry
[03:56] (Zexio) maybe I give the religios right more credit than they are due
[03:56] (Zexio) but I think they will vote for whats most important
[03:56] (patch6) they're all going to beat the war drums, save for the one candidate
[03:56] (emil^^) and guliliani isn't against abortition he just wants states to make thier own choice
[03:56] (Zexio) that wasnt the case in 04 and 08
[03:56] (Astrodog) Zex: The far right, and far left are idiots.
[03:56] (Zexio) but bush changed all that
[03:56] (Zexio) Astrodog: I coudlnt agree with you more
[03:57] (Zexio) they are a minority
[03:57] (emil^^) for that matter - lets talk about euthanasia..........most elderly people dont wanna be a living vegetable.............this is where the repubicans disconnect with thier constiutency
[03:57] (Zexio) most people dont give a flying fuck about those wedge issues... they care about their home, their family, the ball game, having a little extra cash for toys and vacations
[03:57] (Astrodog) Zex: No one will snatch votes from the left of Obama, because the far left's big issue is Iraq... and Obama opposes it.
[03:57] (patch6) empowering the state to murder is a horrid precedent
[03:57] (patch6) they always abuse it
[03:58] (Astrodog) patch: Its not empowering the state.
[03:58] (Astrodog) Its empowering the person who would live, or die.
[03:58] (emil^^) patch - i think this is an issue that should be made by each individual state
[03:58] (Zexio) Astrodog: Obama gives me a creepy feeling with all the jesus talk though
[03:58] (patch6) euthanasia will be sold to you on that pseudo-humanitarian pro choice platter
[03:58] (Zexio) like he is trying extra hard to show his faith
[03:58] (Zexio) why oppose euthanasia?
[03:58] (Astrodog) Zexio: I think he's preempting complaints about his going to school in the philipenes for a few years.
[03:59] (bud`) Zexio yo, clinton carried an oversized bible under his arm every hour of jis presidency, carter was a preacher
[03:59] (Zexio) why do republicans switched the tables... individual rights TRUMP the goverment if they dont harm anyone else...
[03:59] (Zexio) abortion, euthanazia, gay marriage
[03:59] (patch6) I oppose it because it will eventually allow the state to make that kind of choice on its own, as to who lives or dies
[03:59] (Zexio) individual rights
[03:59] (Zexio) patch6: slipperly slope?
[03:59] (emil^^) ask your dad/mom - ask me - if i'm in a vegitative state and living in pain - i pray to god you take me off this shit - i dont wanna live in pain
[03:59] (Zexio) oh c'mon
[03:59] (Astrodog) patch: The Slippery Slope is considered a logical fallicy.
[03:59] (Astrodog) Heh.
[03:59] (bud`) Zexio not in our lifetimes, will we see a president who isnt, or doesnt pretend to be, an xtian
[03:59] (Zexio) thats like saying legalizing abortion would eventually lead the goverment to force abortions
[04:00] (Zexio) thats simply not possible
[04:00] (emil^^) and this is where the right wing and religions disconnect
[04:00] (Astrodog) bud: I'd love to see a mainstream Atheist canidate.
[04:00] (Astrodog) :P
[04:00] (patch6) they do force it in the case of invalids
[04:00] (bud`) Astrodog i dont care myself
[04:00] (Astrodog) patch: Abortion?
[04:01] (emil^^) i just know if i'm a vegetable - plz dear GOD - pull the plug
[04:01] (Astrodog) bud: I'd love to see it... just to watch people scream about it.
[04:01] (emil^^) abortion is wrong - i agree would i do it?? never!!!!
[04:01] (Zexio) emil^^: amen to that and hope to die
[04:01] (bud`) hey check this out, when scientists made the most massive DNA mapping breakthrough ever, Clinton came out praising our new understand of Life as GOD created it.
[04:02] (Zexio) exactly... I got my wife pregnant and we got married
[04:02] (bud`) why do only repubs get a bad rap for god shit
[04:02] (Zexio) aboriton wasnt even an incling of a possibility
[04:02] (emil^^) zexio - i think euthansia is a rather bad thing for rep's to champion
[04:02] (Zexio) its simply an issue that doesnt affect me
[04:02] (Astrodog) bud: Because repubs make policy based on it.
[04:02] (bud`) Astrodog copout chickenshit motherfucker =P
[04:02] (emil^^) zex - espically given so many rep's are of old age and now this terrifies people
[04:02] (Astrodog) bud: I would also be amused to see a canidate who refused to say what his religous beliefs were.
[04:03] (Astrodog) :P
[04:03] (bud`) Astrodog who was the first prez to ever authorize fed. funding for stemcell research. oops
[04:03] (Zexio) bud`: I chose to ignore everything bad about clinton because under his watch (even if the credit doesnt belong to him) my 401k gotreally fat and my life got 1000X better
[04:03] (Zexio) he could have fucked an underaged cathlic schoolgirl on national tv and I would still have supported him
[04:04] (Zexio) maybe thats the wrong attitude to have, but meh :)
[04:04] (Astrodog) Clinton is loved... because for all of the bad things he did... his policy worked. :P
[04:04] (bud`) i jsut love the false perceptions people have about what (D) or (R) mean in the grand scheme of things... i can spend all night posting dems pushing God shit and Repubs pushing science shit but the perception is planted.. for good
[04:05] (bud`) chickenshit motherfuckers =P
[04:05] (Astrodog) bud: The majority of Atheists are dems.
[04:05] (Zexio) bud`: not really. smart people know the score.
[04:05] (Astrodog) There are certainly republican atheists...
[04:05] (Astrodog) And there are evangelical democrats.
[04:05] (Zexio) (r) and (d) is just a show
[04:05] (bud`) Zexio YO -) when scientists made the most massive DNA mapping breakthrough ever, Clinton came out praising our new understand of Life as GOD created it.
[04:05] (Astrodog) But predominantly... an evangelical is more likely to be a repub, and an atheist is more likely to be a dem.
[04:05] (Zexio) there are some legit difference of opinion about spending and of course the big social issues
[04:05] (bud`) if Bush made that comment people would prolly take to the streets
[04:05] (Zexio) but in the end, both sides are pretty much the same
[04:06] (Zexio) except for the far right and the far left
[04:06] (Zexio) which I think we ALL agree are a bunch of fucktards :)
[04:06] (bud`) yeah but you happen to be one of them =D
[04:06] (bud`) holy shit
[04:06] (emil^^) clinton - dumb ass or not - he did make america like him.............
[04:07] (emil^^) and dont get me wrong - at least clinton knew how to play international politics
[04:07] (Zexio) far left? hardly
[04:07] (bud`) emil^^ Abe lincoln said it best
[04:08] (emil^^) clinton cut our airforce in half - that i dont play -............but damnit - it's really really sucks when i miss the days of clinton
[04:08] (bud`) Abe said you put on your backwoods shit-eating grin and you lie
[04:08] (bud`) if it means you can come home and change the country for the better
[04:08] (emil^^) bud - i like that :)
[04:08] (Zexio) isnt that it though?
[04:08] (bud`) yeah it was Clintons excuse he gave to an aide who was trying to quit
[04:08] (Zexio) I think bush though he would really create a beacon of democracy in the middle east
[04:09] (Zexio) fix our oil issues for a few gfenerations
[04:09] (Zexio) and stam out terrorists
[04:09] (Zexio) he just fucked up the execution
[04:09] (Zexio) Its not enough to have good intentions
[04:09] (emil^^) zexio - i dont think clinton was anti-american and i dont think think bush jr though the same either
[04:09] (emil^^) just there is a such think as hindsight
[04:09] (Zexio) yeah I think they really did want the best for the country
[04:10] (Zexio) one just actually made the country better
[04:10] (Zexio) and other, no so much
[04:10] (Zexio) I do agree about the lying part too... I dont blame bush for the wiretaps
[04:10] (Zexio) or torture
[04:10] (bud`) copout
[04:10] (Zexio) but cover it up better for fucks sake
[04:11] (Zexio) I want you to come on national tv and tell the world with a straight face that we do NOT allow for torture
[04:11] (Zexio) however when and if the time comes that we have some mofo that might know something
[04:11] (bud`) brainless
[04:11] (bud`) thoughtless
[04:11] (bud`) cheap
[04:11] (bud`) copout
[04:11] (emil^^) zexio - clinton used egypt for interrogation........he did keep it quite tho
[04:11] (Zexio) emil^^: exactly
[04:11] (Zexio) its a matter of competence
[04:11] (emil^^) bud not really......we alaways used tortur
[04:11] (Zexio) speak softly and carry a big stick
[04:12] (emil^^) torture i dont play......it's not right - and honestly i think loud ass music and sleep deprevatation can work given time
[04:12] (bud`) if anything capture/interrogation techniques under this admin have been more open than ever before in the history of history, and they gave an inch and the political opposition took a fucking mile with it
[04:12] (Zexio) emil^^: well thats part of what they consider torture
[04:12] (Zexio) or putting ham all over them
[04:12] (Zexio) thats torture also
[04:12] (Zexio) but I say do it
[04:13] (Zexio) whatever you need to do
[04:13] (emil^^) well tho for decades we have always given our captives to egypt to interrogate
[04:13] (bud`) its a fucking cheap mindless copout
[04:13] (Zexio) bud`: whats a copout?
[04:13] (Zexio) caring about results?
[04:13] (bud`) Zexio all of it
[04:13] (emil^^) well - we simply cant admit to this............we have a face to save
[04:14] (Zexio) thats going to be harder and harder to do the longer we stay
[04:14] (emil^^) egypt is one of the most notable countries for benefits/answers from torture
[04:14] (Zexio) I say declare victory and get out
[04:14] (Zexio) and unlike McCain, I do think torture works
[04:14] (emil^^) zexio - sadly i agree...............
[04:14] (bud`) the whole notion that some terrorists jihadist defense lawyers allegations of torture suddenly become major news whilst ignoring the 1000's who were willing to offer up the defense to their arguments
[04:14] (bud`) its all a bullshit reality we see
[04:15] (Zexio) bud`: again, they fucked up the execution
[04:15] (patch6) torture is effective .. too effective, seeing as how the tortured will tell the interrogator anything he wants to hear
[04:15] (Zexio) you ship them out, get the info if they have any and then they die
[04:15] (Zexio) its not like we didnt do that with the contras in nicaragua
[04:15] (emil^^) like it or not - we have shiities and sunni's wanting to kill each other - doesnt' matter how long we stay in iraq they will kill each and kill us
[04:15] (patch6) the tortured will tell him that he is emperor of mars on saturdays if pressured long enough
[04:16] (Zexio) patch6: well tahts the easy part giving falso info
[04:16] (bud`) i sware to god, go check news.google, look up all those torture stories from a few years ago, google the names of the people, high profile jihadist defense lawyers.. now scan the stories again for names of people on OUR side
[04:16] (emil^^) if iraq fucks with us still - then let us allow our military to do what they do best - kill people and blow up shit
[04:16] (Zexio) but they have to give accurate info, actionable info or the torture continues
[04:16] (Zexio) happened in every major war
[04:16] (Zexio) and there was torture in every major war
[04:16] (patch6) like with khalid sheikh mohammed, the list of confessions was ridiculous
[04:17] (Zexio) yeah and I dont think he was tortured probably
[04:17] (patch6) there is no way he could have masterminded all 30-odd plots that was confessed to
[04:17] (emil^^) what's his name - reid??? got fronted on for saying we're loosing this war - ............ hint hint - this is a war we CAN NOT win - if they wanna kill each other it will happen
[04:17] (Zexio) its a clusterfuck
[04:17] (bud`) this is why its a bullshit copout, when people are so emotionally battered into submission thanks to political bullshit they take some terrorists lawyers allegations as truth and never fucking bother to seek out THEIR OWN GOVT's side of the story
[04:17] (Zexio) but we need to save face
[04:17] (hooah505) we are losing the war because media distortions and democrat political expediency are demoralising the public
[04:17] (bud`) its fucking bullshit and you know it, in your gut, you know it
[04:17] (emil^^) we may as well fight the war on poverty or the war on drugs (yeah both of those worked out great- ehh?
[04:17] (Zexio) hooah505: BHAhahahahaah
[04:18] (hooah505) laugh as you wish, Zex... but it's true
[04:18] (Zexio) hooah505: did the US lose vietnam because of the hippies?
[04:18] (patch6) torture is a good way to force confessions out of patsies that have nothing to do with a crime, it covers a lot of hind ends
[04:18] (Zexio) or because we couldnt win a guerrila war
[04:18] (hooah505) Zex... if we withdraw from Iraq, do you really think that the jihadis won't follow?
[04:18] (emil^^) bud - i just care about ouar troops - if iraq wants to get their shit together let them
[04:18] (hooah505) we lost the war in Vietnam because the American people lost their stomach for it at the very time we were winning
[04:18] (bud`) emil^^ weeee
[04:19] (emil^^) bud - so you think we could have won the war in vietnam???????
[04:19] (bud`) oooooh
[04:19] (Zexio) hooah505: iraq is lost. I think (and a lot of professionals agree) that al-queda and the other foreign fighters would get slauthers in the crossfire between the sunnis and shittes
[04:19] (bud`) lets go there. not
[04:19] (bud`) cause its just so relevant
[04:19] (Zexio) that country has a big bloody civil war coming up
[04:19] (hooah505) by the early 70s most of S Vietnam was pacified... the VC never recovered from the trouncing they took during Ted
[04:19] (Zexio) gonna happen no matter what the US or anyone else does at this point
[04:19] (hooah505) Tet
[04:20] (emil^^) look - like it or not sunni's and shiite's wanna kill each other - we cant stop that
[04:20] (bud`) lol
[04:20] (bud`) your own thoughts im sure
[04:20] (hooah505) Iraq is part of a larger war... but the LEft refuses to recognize it is a war...they want to deal with al-Qaeda as if it were a criminal justice problem
[04:20] (bud`) nothing to do with that being said over and over and over again by vertain elements
[04:20] (hooah505) emil... if we lose in Iraq, we'll only be fighting them elsewhere....closer to home
[04:20] (emil^^) hooah - dont say the left - that's not fair - the right see this also
[04:21] (hooah505) and the only way we'll lose in Iraq is if the Democrats make us lose
[04:21] (patch6) if there's a war to be had, it should be declared, with clear objectives written
[04:21] (bud`) christ. if people could just think for themselves these days.
[04:21] (hooah505) sorry, emil... but defeatists on the Right are small in number.. Chuck Hagel and a few others
[04:21] (emil^^) no - i guess if we stick it out and give another 100,000 lives - perhaps in time in 50 years we can pacify iraq
[04:21] (Zexio) hooah505: So you think we are winning the war in iraq?
[04:22] (hooah505) it was declared, Patch.. the Congressional authorization for the use of military force in September 2001
[04:22] (bud`) another blinding original thought. congrats
[04:22] (hooah505) I'd rather be fighting them in IRaq than in Indiana
[04:22] (Zexio) how are they going to get from iraq to indiana?
[04:22] (Zexio) trough the unprotected mexican border I'm sure
[04:22] (emil^^) hooah - so as long as we're fighting people the u.s. is safe then ehh?
[04:22] (hooah505) I think counter-insurgency warfare is a long term effort.... it took the Brits 18 years to pacify Malaysia
[04:22] (Zexio) why dont we secure that shit?
[04:22] (hooah505) Zec... same way they showed up in NYC on 9/11
[04:23] (Zexio) why do we spend billions over there and keep our ports and borders wide open?
[04:23] (emil^^) see i have a major issue with this term insurgents..........
[04:23] (Zexio) think for yourself and stop repeating talking points... I'm ALL for securing america
[04:23] (emil^^) what is an insurgent?
[04:23] (Zexio) lets do THAT
[04:23] (Zexio) close the border
[04:23] (bud`) weve been pretty succesful at our borders. mainly through luck tho. the millenium bombings that were thwarted
[04:23] (Zexio) secure the ports
[04:23] (hooah505) Zex... the immigration lobby - strongly represented in the Democrat party by the way - doesn' t want to fortify the Mexican border
[04:23] (Zexio) scan the shit coming in
[04:23] (bud`) emil^^ insurgent.. no no.. FREEDOM FIGHTER
[04:23] (Zexio) hooah505: what the fuck? when did the democrats become a majority in both houses?
[04:23] (hooah505) Zex... it's all the same fight.. don't you get that? We are dealing with a global jihadi ideology
[04:24] (emil^^) as long as we kept calling iraqi's fighters 'insurgents' it's not a civil war.........hmm weird
[04:24] (bud`) emil^^ play with political terms all day long... haha
[04:24] (Zexio) so the 8 years the mexican border stayed open since bush got elected was the democrats fault?
[04:24] (bud`) emil^^ shit is what it is.. ugly and difficult.
[04:24] (emil^^) zex - and if it is a holy jihad i'm sure americans fighting in the most holy land of muslims can only help then ehh?
[04:24] (Zexio) the 100000 of containers coming in every day not getting scanned is that the democrats fault?
[04:24] (hooah505) emil... so you want to glorify people who blow up schools and hospitals with the honorific "insurgent" smells like terrorism to me
[04:25] (emil^^) hooah - be realistic plz and dont put words in my mouth
[04:25] (hooah505) Zex... I challenge you to show me one war in which the winning side didn't make more than its share of cock ups
[04:25] (bud`) Zexio the ignored point is most of those containers are already scanned in friendly countries. why scan a pile of containers already scanned by brits?
[04:25] (emil^^) iraq wants to fight each other - this is a given - how about stepping the f' out?
[04:25] (hooah505) emil... I am realistic and any asshole who blows up a school is terrorist scum
[04:25] * sHice| is now known as sHice
[04:26] (emil^^) hoohah - sure they are nuts.......hence why i think we should have nothing to do with this place
[04:26] (Zexio) bud`: because I dont trust the brits. Passengers are scanned in other countries but they are not allowed into the us without being scanned by us
[04:26] (hooah505) emil... you are wearing blinders... if we were to withdraw from Iraq tomorrow... do you really think they wouldn't follow?
[04:26] (rondd) Zexio we have our personel over there
[04:26] (Zexio) hooah505: dude, are these guys going to paddle across the atlantic?
[04:26] (Zexio) the ones that are here already
[04:26] (Zexio) are here already
[04:26] (hooah505) the perception of American defeat in IRaq would only serve to encourage further terrorist aggression
[04:26] (emil^^) i guess i dotn care if iraqi's kill each other - perhaps sunni's and shiites need to fight it out and come to conclusion
[04:26] (Zexio) the ones coming in later will come via the unprotected border
[04:26] (rondd) you need to read on this more
[04:27] (hooah505) Zex... you forgot the 7/7 bombings in London.. the Madrid train bombings... it's a porous world
[04:27] (bud`) Zexio if its already scanned by serious mofo's in UK, who by the way are used to bombings, its safe to ignore that % of containers and focus on the 3% we dont know about
[04:27] (hooah505) in London they were homegrown jihadis.. and in Spain they came in from N Africa
[04:27] (Zexio) hooah505: why are you against securing america. WHy not pressure the president and your representatives to close the border and secure or ports
[04:27] (Zexio) what is the problem?
[04:27] (hooah505) it's absurd to think that the Atlantic can serve as a moat in the 21st century
[04:27] (Zexio) or/our
[04:28] (hooah505) I'm not, Zex... but I'm confident we can do both.... why do you refuse to recognize that Iraq is merely one theatre of ops in a global war?
[04:28] (emil^^) so...............the only answer is - the u.s. should become nation builders - and spend decades i iraq - let us show them how a righteous nation should act..........and we can share our philosophy and this solves all? 20-30-50-60 years........lets just make iraq a u.s. military base ehh?
[04:28] (Zexio) hooah505: I only care about iraq in so much as its used as a distraction from REALLY protecting us here
[04:29] (hooah505) emil... yup.. don't forget that region serves as the fuel pump for the global economy....
[04:29] (emil^^) what is you answer?
[04:29] (Zexio) we have the resources to close the border and scan everything coming in
[04:29] (bud`) the waa waa 90% of containers arent scanned bullshit is just a demogouge used typically by the dems.. they lie by telling you half the truth. they arent scanned upon arrival, sure, because they were scanned once, scanned twice, scanned again in friendly nations who mean business
[04:29] (hooah505) well, Zex... that's a distorted way to look at it
[04:29] (Zexio) but we as a country, have to want it first.
[04:29] (rondd) Zexio please do some damn reading
[04:29] (hooah505) this neo-isolationist instinct is anachronistic in the world we live in
[04:29] (emil^^) so - since we're all behing honest - you want to permentaly occupy the most holy country if islam........
[04:29] (Zexio) rondd: its a very simple issue man. How many illegals get across the border daily?
[04:29] (Zexio) what stops a terrorist from doing the exact same thing?
[04:30] (Zexio) its VERY simple
[04:30] (bud`) emil^^ how about YOU get honest
[04:30] (hooah505) America can't just pull up the draw bridge and isolate from the world
[04:30] (Zexio) doesnt require more reading than some simple statistic
[04:30] (rondd) Zexio the border is on the way to being more secure
[04:30] (rondd) Its not a simple issue
[04:30] (Zexio) both the left and right refuse to even talk about the issue
[04:30] (Zexio) or rather
[04:30] (hooah505) Zexio... I'm in favour of fencing off the border... but then they'll just come in through Canada... were security is lax
[04:30] (Zexio) they both talk alot of shit about it but then do nothing
[04:30] (rondd) we cannot even hire right now borger agents for the positions that are open right now
[04:30] (emil^^) as long as we have americans who think it our right occupy mecca.....we will never solve this issue
[04:30] (hooah505) so what do you want to do... fence off the Canadian border as well?
[04:30] (rondd) adding 6000 more positions is not going to change a thing
[04:30] (hooah505) I'd rather spend that money enlarging the Army and Marine Corps
[04:31] (Zexio) you need to put the army there
[04:31] (rondd) although I agree those positions should be added
[04:31] (hooah505) we need a 600,000 troop army
[04:31] (Zexio) use the tech we have
[04:31] (rondd) but its not a simple matter
[04:31] (rondd) the tech is being added zexio
[04:31] (emil^^) declare victory and leave - that simple - if iraqi's wanna kill each other - let the sunni's and shiites kill each other - if they mess with us - then yes lets use our national military.......
[04:31] (Zexio) rondd: I been hearing that for 8 years
[04:31] (hooah505) the fact of the matter is that we are fighting a global conflict and Zex's isolationist instincts are a pipe dream
[04:31] (rondd) none of this happens ovee night
[04:32] (hooah505) emil.... yeah.. and they'll follow on our tail as we leave
[04:32] (Zexio) sunnis and shittes dont care about us
[04:32] (hooah505) this is a shooting war, and it's an ideological war....
[04:32] (emil^^) hooah - of course - fight us - then our military can do what it does best - kill people and blow up shit
[04:32] (Zexio) once we leave they have their own family and clan wars to keep them entertained
[04:32] (Zexio) alqueda will follow us and is currently following us
[04:32] (hooah505) Zex... so al-Qaeda doesn't care about the US?
[04:32] (Zexio) I hate to think how many are already here
[04:33] (Zexio) and we are not stoping them
[04:33] (hooah505) Zex... they are following us to IRaq
[04:33] (Zexio) oh no, no racial profiling because that wouldnt be PC
[04:33] (emil^^) iraq is a cluster fuck.............if they wanna kill each other - who are we to spend american lives to tell them 'hey stop this isn't nice'
[04:33] (Zexio) oh no, no diminishing of visas for people from those regions
[04:33] (hooah505) I'd rather have the 82nd fight them in Iraq than the Chicago PD fighting them in Illinois
[04:33] (Zexio) keep giving them 3k student visas a year
[04:33] (Zexio) rondd is the one that needs to do more reading about the really serious situation we have here at home
[04:34] (Zexio) about how easy it is for these people to come in
[04:34] (Zexio) and stay
[04:34] (Zexio) under the radar
[04:34] (Zexio) no national id card... wouldnt be PC
[04:34] (hooah505) Zex... a student visa is VERY difficult for a student from the Mid East to obtain these days
[04:34] (emil^^) so you think that sunni's and shiiites if they run out of people to kill in their own country they want to kill us
[04:34] (hooah505) you need to get with the times
[04:34] (Zexio) the things you need to do to protect this country you dont want to do
[04:34] (Zexio) or refuse to even acknoledge
[04:34] (patch6) the authorisation of the use of military force is incredibly vague on its critera of victory.. "(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of internation
[04:34] (bud`) emil^^ its amzing to me, how compassionate you are about some africans affiliated with your church, and caring for them, yet how cold and unwilling you are to help the overwhelming majority in iraq (remember almost 70% turned out to vote) and quite well the wider region
[04:34] (hooah505) Zex.. I would rather spend the money beefing up and restoring an overburdened Army and Marine Corps
[04:34] (Zexio) I dont care if you kill every iraqui... shit, have fun. But move towards protecting our country
[04:35] (hooah505) it's a matter of priorities....
[04:35] (bud`) emil^^ we are THERE now.
[04:35] (emil^^) bud - i pick my battles - i help those who want my help........do i walk into a middle of a gangfight tho???? no
[04:35] (patch6) that kind of war can go on until doomsday
[04:35] (bud`) take this opportunity or piss it away?
[04:35] (hooah505) emil... the gang fight already walked into you
[04:35] (hooah505) that's what you don't get
[04:35] (bud`) emil^^ you know damn well its the minority of thugs youre talking about
[04:36] (bud`) do you stand against them
[04:36] (bud`) or do you act like the little bitch you are
[04:36] (bud`) =P
[04:36] (emil^^) bud - i just realize walking into the middle of a religious war is prolly not in our best interest
[04:36] (Zexio) hooah505: dude, you keep repeating the same stupid republican talking point... we fight them there so we dont have to fight them here. But iraq is not preventing people from coming over RIGHT NOW. even if we win iraq by nuking it off the face of the earth we still have the same problem
[04:36] (hooah505) patch...the AUMF is more detailed than most of the reasons for America's wars... most of which were undeclared
[04:36] (Zexio) you need to do some hardcore racial profiling, national id card and closing of the border
[04:36] (bud`) emil^^ talk it up all you want, wussy, you still know damn well its the thug minority.
[04:36] (emil^^) bud - i like to help those who want our help
[04:36] (Zexio) but our goverment and both parties dont have the stomach for it
[04:37] (hooah505) Zex... and your inability to realise that it's a global war is sad
[04:37] (Zexio) so instead all the attention goes to iraq
[04:37] (emil^^) bud - see i dont really know that - sunni and shiites do want to kill each other
[04:37] (Zexio) hooah505: sure its a global war, but why does that precludes us from protecting our land?
[04:37] (bud`) emil^^ minority = the majority woul really fucking appreciate a hand here
[04:37] (hooah505) Zex... what makes you think I'm against profiling? The Israelis do it and it's very effective
[04:37] (Zexio) hooah505: ok then, we agree on that
[04:37] (hooah505) it doesn't, Zex... you are jumping to conclusions....
[04:37] (hooah505) you sound like some sort of black helicopter militia type
[04:37] (Zexio) not at all
[04:38] (bud`) emil^^ i gotchya, you support the minority. fuck the overwhelming majority of the 27mil people who voted and just want a chance
[04:38] (Zexio) I'm a nyc "liberal" (because I dont give a flying fuck about abortion, gays or guns)
[04:38] (emil^^) im down with helping people, but well - what can i do if my help is considered evil
[04:38] (Zexio) yet I'm a fiscal conservative that wants this country to not get attacked again
[04:38] (Zexio) so what am I?
[04:38] (bud`) emil^^ no need to further explain. crystal clear
[04:38] (hooah505) well, Zex... if you voted Democrat last election... you have a lot to answer for
[04:39] (emil^^) bud - hell - i was a emt-a - #1 question we have to answer is: is the scence safe
[04:39] (hooah505) what about the recent immigration demos throughout the country conducted with Dem support?
[04:39] (Zexio) the party in power is not protecting my country, why should I keep them in power
[04:39] (emil^^) if the scene is not safe - then no - we dont bardge in
[04:39] (Zexio) I didnt vote
[04:39] (hooah505) kind of undercuts your argument there
[04:39] (Zexio) disgusted
[04:39] (Zexio) next election I would love to guiliani to win
[04:39] (Zexio) but the far right wont allow him to get nominated
[04:39] (hooah505) the party in power is not perfect.. but it's doing a helluva lot more than Nancy Pelosi
[04:39] (Zexio) which is bullshit
[04:40] (hooah505) it's democracy
[04:40] (bud`) emil^^ lol, me and you, as EMTs have that luxury here. over there they had to go and vote knowing it wasnt safe, but they did anyways, because they believed in it
[04:40] (bud`) emil^^: chickenshit motherfucker =D
[04:40] (Zexio) once again, bullshit issues such as gays are used to distract from the real issues, such as protecting the country
[04:40] (hooah505) I'm waiting for Fred Thompson to get in
[04:40] (rondd) Your an EMT bud ?
[04:40] (hooah505) well, Zex... if you demand respect for your point of view, then you should afford some to Christian conservatives who see things differently
[04:40] (emil^^) bud - i know you mean better - the fact is we can't make the 'scene safe' when it comes to iraq - we have a religious war going on
[04:41] (bud`) emil^^ copout =)
[04:41] (patch6) Ron Paul's all about the non-interventionist angle, wants to bring home all the troops asap
[04:41] (hooah505) Ron Paul is a buffoon
[04:41] (patch6) elaborate
[04:41] (bud`) patch6 you can go support ron paul with the others at stormfront.org
[04:41] (emil^^) bud - my ass- if you really are an EMT - when gunshot are fired you dont rush in - no you wait for cops to show up
[04:41] (hooah505) he has this 19th century era isolationist perspective that is absurd in the 21st century
[04:42] (hooah505) he thinks we can withdraw from the world and the world will leave us alone
[04:42] (Zexio) hooah505: christian conservatives who vote on the basis of gay marriage and abortion can all die in a fire
[04:42] (emil^^) bud - the scene is never save in iraq - i'm sorry - we have 2 religious factions who want to kill each other
[04:42] (patch6) it's logically sound, leave them alone and they'll leave you alone, but if they don't, then you'll have a large standing army to defend the nation with
[04:42] (hooah505) if we want to remain an affluent and economically vibrant country... we need to trade with the world.. and that means engagement
[04:42] (hooah505) patch.. it's completely illogical and ignorant of the nature of the threat we face
[04:43] (bud`) emil^^ yes, i said we have that luxury. the 70=% of iraqis who went out and voted heard the gunfire but went and voted anyways, as its what they believe in. You are saying they dont need any help, that they should be abandoned, that we should get out, because well, thugs
[04:43] (emil^^) bud - i do my best to help when i can - i wont put my own life on the line - i'm sorry if you think less of me
[04:43] (Zexio) look, I'm all for engagement. I am all for nation building too if you have someone competent that can actually pull it off like reagan
[04:43] (hooah505) Ron Paul wouldn't know Said Qutub if he tripped over his book "Milestones
[04:43] (patch6) if you're after the boogyman, you're not going to find him
[04:43] (Zexio) but when you have clusterfuck after clusterfuck, you gotta think about protecting your borders
[04:43] (hooah505) I found him on 9/11
[04:43] (bud`) emil^^ well you see, we have people who have volunteered to help them, it doesnt come down to your lame ass =P
[04:44] (hooah505) Zex.. if this were 1942, after a whole series of disasters and the Japs and Nazis advancing on every front.. would you want to throw in the towel?
[04:44] (Zexio) bud`: do you really care about the iraqui people? (its a real question, because frankly I dont)
[04:44] (Zexio) I think one american is worht a 1000 iraquis
[04:44] (Zexio) why shoudl we die for their freedom?
[04:44] (emil^^) bud - sure we have people who are paid to put their lives on the lines (i.e. military) have you put your life on the line in iraq?
[04:44] (bud`) Zexio why yes I do. Ive lived in plenty of coutries and enjoyed them all, depiste the differences.
[04:45] (hooah505) Zex... simplistic to the point of silliness... if you like a modern post-industrial economy... you have to care about the region of the world that produces 65% of theoil
[04:45] (Zexio) so we should spend out blood and treasure helping them for all eternity?
[04:45] (emil^^) bud - sure we have people who are paid to put their lives on the lines (i.e. military) have you put your life on the line in iraq?
[04:45] (bud`) emil^^ are you defeated? perhaps you need to turn it on me personally?
[04:45] (hooah505) Zex.. it's in America's vital national interest to ensure the stable flow of oil
[04:45] (Zexio) thats another problem
[04:45] (hooah505) no, Zex... it's all the same problem
[04:45] (Zexio) and one that gets me banned from here everytime I bring it up
[04:45] (Zexio) but our military is not what it used to
[04:45] (hooah505) that's what you are incapable of comprhending
[04:45] (emil^^) bud - well you talked down to me cuz i was not willing to put my life on the line
[04:46] (Zexio) we have diluted our power
[04:46] (bud`) emil^^ ok, I was under the impression you just tried to make this about me
[04:46] (bud`) be nice if you maybe addressed what i said about THEM
[04:46] (Zexio) I read stars and stripes and I have friends and family that are in iraq right now.
[04:46] (emil^^) bud - of course you dont put your life on the line - i wont either!
[04:46] (hooah505) Zex... pulling up the drawbridge won't work
[04:46] (hooah505) but you just don't get that
[04:46] (Zexio) the situaion is NOT good
[04:46] (Zexio) hooah505: our military is beind decimated.
[04:46] (hooah505) Zex.... so let's throw in the towel, eh?
[04:47] (Zexio) thats simplistic
[04:47] (Zexio) no such thing
[04:47] (Zexio) you change strategy
[04:47] (hooah505) Zex... crap... in four years we've taken fewer combat casualties than on Iwo Jima
[04:47] (bud`) such a load of crap
[04:47] (emil^^) our military does what it is paid - and we have lost Three Thousand+ lives so far and counting
[04:47] (Zexio) you let them fight their civil war and we concentrate on killing those we like th eleast
[04:48] (hooah505) a term that means every 10th soldier killed)
[04:48] (Zexio) hooah505: I'm talking about casualties
[04:48] (bud`) emil^^ jeuss tits we lost 17k last year to violent homicide in america. we should fucking call the queen of england and surrender our position in the americas
[04:48] (Zexio) I'm talking about the recruitment
[04:48] (emil^^) american lives - these are people - with families
[04:48] (Zexio) we no longer have an elite army of patriots I'm afraid
[04:48] (bud`) chickenshit motherfucker
[04:48] (hooah505) we took 6,000 KIA on Iwo... and about 20,000 WIA... in 6 weeks
[04:48] (emil^^) but we loose all of these nobel americns - people with mothers and sisters and children and wivews
[04:49] (JupaSaur) perhaps one result of the pres campaigns starting so prematurely is that the intial front runners might show their true colors before election day. this might already be happeneing in the repub party. i saw a poll last night that now puts romney ahead of guiliani and mccain
[04:49] (hooah505) in Iraq/Afghanistan we've taken a bit over 3,000 KIA and about 25,000 WIA in FOUR YEARS
[04:49] (hooah505) hardly a decimation
[04:49] (bud`) emil^^ every 90 seconds a woman is raped in the United States. I say we pull out now.
[04:49] (emil^^) i just wnat to know why are why our nobel american soldiers dying...........
[04:49] (Zexio) hooah505: I'm not talking about casualties
[04:49] (Zexio) I'm talking about people serving 4 tours
[04:49] (hooah505) nobel is a prize... emil....
[04:49] (Zexio) I'm talking about recruiting the botton of the barrel
[04:50] (hooah505) they are volunteers... they chose to join
[04:50] (Zexio) people that would never would have been considered in the past
[04:50] (emil^^) look i find this very very serious.........
[04:50] (Zexio) this dilutes our armed forces
[04:50] (emil^^) and i'm sorry if you can make light of american deaths
[04:50] (Zexio) destroys it from within
[04:50] (hooah505) Zex... once again you exaggerate... the standards have been very slightely lowered for small number of recruits...
[04:50] (bud`) emil^^ more crab fisherman die than soldiers. what you gonna do about it
[04:50] (emil^^) american lives to me are very precious
[04:50] (hooah505) the military is still more intelligent and better educated than the average US citizen
[04:51] (hooah505) by far
[04:51] (Zexio) hooah505: my relatives must be liars when they talk about toothless rednecks that can read or black conscripts that think they are in a scarface movie (or a gang movie)
[04:51] (Zexio) hooah505: I wish that was the case
[04:51] (hooah505) I would say we have the best military in history because of its high standards combined with combat experience
[04:51] (Zexio) because it used to be the case
[04:51] (emil^^) i'm sorrry if you think american lives and the families of those who have perished and insignifcant.........wow
[04:52] (hooah505) Zex... sounds like a National Guard unit to me
[04:52] (bud`) emil^^ if you value human life so much waht are you doing about our national highway deaths, and our gas heaters, and our swimming accidents
[04:52] (rondd) zexio so your saying our military is made up of southern dumbasses ?
[04:52] (bud`) copout
[04:52] (hooah505) of course he is rondd.... typical NYC left of center disdain for the military
[04:52] (Zexio) rondd: I'm saying our milatary is being diluted by lowered standards, much lower standards than anyone will admit to officially
[04:52] (emil^^) 'i regret i have one life to give for my country' .........or so is said.........
[04:52] (Zexio) making missions much more dangerous than they need to be
[04:53] (bud`) military is a dangerous job, but its a lot more meaningful than crab fishing where the casualty rate is higher
[04:53] (hooah505) we have an entire generation of NCOs and officers who have substantial combat experience in counter-insurgency warfare...
[04:53] (rondd) Zexio your relatives are not only lieing there stupider than the young guys joining our military
[04:53] (hooah505) our military is in better shape today than ever
[04:53] (rondd) you need to get some new fucking family dude
[04:53] (emil^^) for those who diminish american lives given for their cause - like it or not..........
[04:53] (rondd) or at least do your own research
[04:53] (Zexio) rondd: I have video and picture evidence of the new conscripts level of intelligence
[04:53] (hooah505) the deadwood who couldn't perform in combat have been cleared out... and the officer and NCO corps of the Army and Marines are the best ever
[04:53] (rondd) zexio I was in the military
[04:53] (Zexio) and yes, most of them are from the south
[04:53] (emil^^) american lives are given for our country - i simply want these lives to mean something
[04:54] (Zexio) so was I
[04:54] (hooah505) Zex... you've been going to Moveon.org too much
[04:54] (rondd) liar
[04:54] (hooah505) Zex... what was your MOS?
[04:54] (bud`) emil^^ and youre an ignorant bigoted jerk for thinking they dont mean something.
[04:54] (Zexio) oh wait you dont count the natial guard the military do you?
[04:54] (rondd) zexio what was your MOS
[04:54] (rondd) when were your DOS
[04:54] (emil^^) bud - i think that americans lives are beign thrown away yes.........and this does bother me
[04:55] (emil^^) bud - i think iraq should fight it owns wars
[04:55] (hooah505) rondd... don't hold your breath
[04:55] (hooah505) hooah, brother
[04:55] (rondd) zexio if you were in the military you would have an immediate answer for those
[04:55] (Zexio) it always comes down to the al pacino moment
[04:55] (bud`) emil^^: people die everyday, doing every imaginable activity. those who die standing up and protecting the weak deserve more respect than you can possibly fathom
[04:55] (iDefcon) uh
[04:55] (emil^^) hooah - i like cuz he is an obvious patriot
[04:55] (rondd) zexio your a liar and just won the ignore award
[04:55] (iDefcon) im in the military and i donno wth a DOS is
[04:55] (hooah505) 11 Bravo, rondd
[04:56] (hooah505) hooah
[04:56] (emil^^) i want american lives to stand for something
[04:56] (iDefcon) they do
[04:56] (iDefcon) opulence and decadence
[04:56] (hooah505) and you?
[04:56] (rondd) hooa5 00b10 here
[04:56] (bud`) emil^^ the way i see it, you want to use those lives to make a bullshit copout political gripe
[04:56] (emil^^) i'm not sure how much 3k lives really have mattered - it hasn't made a lick of difference
[04:57] (emil^^) bud - dear god no......
[04:57] (hooah505) engineer, eh?
[04:57] (rondd) sort of
[04:57] (emil^^) but at some point we can credit these people......and we can also realize we need to pick our battles
[04:57] (hooah505) isn't that an engineering MOS?
[04:58] (rondd) diving mos attached to an engineer battalion
[04:58] (patch6) hooah505 are you aware of Kissinger's "Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy" quote?
[04:58] (hooah505) gotcha
[04:58] (hooah505) patch... I certainly am.... so what?
[04:58] (bud`) patch6 thats well disputed
[04:58] (bud`) and not in context
[04:58] (emil^^) we need to pick the batteles we can WIN.........
[04:58] (hooah505) typical lefty disdain for those who fight to preserve their freedom
[04:59] (emil^^) we couldn't have thrown 50K lives away in North ireland that wouldnt' have made the IRA stop thier anger and death
[04:59] (hooah505) emil.. the IRA quit because they were beaten
[04:59] (emil^^) the ira wanted to kill english - like it or not this was reality
[04:59] (hooah505) the Brits outlasted them
[05:00] (emil^^) yes and 50k american lives wouldn't have made a lick of difference in NI
[05:00] (hooah505) and in the post-9/11 environment the IRA realised they couldn't get away with terrorism any more and expect any sympathy from the American Iraish community
[05:00] (rondd) well emil it does take lives and treasury to outlast the enemy
[05:00] (bud`) i lived in england when a few mailboxes exploded in the theater district in london. just people out to see a show..
[05:00] (emil^^) how many american lives must we sacrafice before iraq realizes this??? or do we have courage to throw away 50k, 100k, 150k, 200k, 400K lives?
[05:01] (hooah505) rondd... I try to tell these yahoos that it took the Brits 18 years to pacify Malaysia in the face of a communist insurgency....
[05:01] (bud`) emil^^ youre taking the copout route
[05:01] (Astrodog) hooah: Uhm.
[05:01] (bud`) just go now while youre ahead
[05:01] (hooah505) I guess it's our instant gratification fast food culture
[05:01] (emil^^) bud - well what is the answer?
[05:01] (bud`) emil^^ we stand up
[05:01] (Astrodog) Malaysia wasn't a colony, at that point. That was the whole reason Singapore split.
[05:01] (rondd) hooah we are still in SK, Phillipenes, Europe etc etc
[05:01] (hooah505) yep....
[05:02] (Astrodog) rondd: No US forces are stationed in Singapore.
[05:02] (emil^^) bud - how many american lives are you willing to spend to 'bring iraq' to peace?
[05:02] (rondd) all to our advantage
[05:02] (rondd) and with good results
[05:02] (hooah505) counterinsurgency warfare has been likened to eating soup with a knife... a long and painful process...
[05:02] (bud`) emil^^ how many lives are you willing to see crushed on your national highways just so you can drive
[05:02] (emil^^) that's a red herring.......
[05:02] (hooah505) but we don't have any choice.... if we cut and run they will only follow with redoubled enthisiasm
[05:02] (bud`) and yours isnt
[05:02] (emil^^) speak to the issue plz
[05:03] (rondd) hooah I now understand your nick....ours was hooo yah
[05:03] (bud`) emil^^ i believe the strong have a duty to protect the weak.
[05:03] (hooah505) jihadi Islam is at war with us and they intend to drag us back into medieval darkness at the business end of an AK
[05:03] (emil^^) bud - so 200,000 american troops if that's what it takes..
[05:03] (hooah505) rondd... that's the SEAL version....
[05:03] (hooah505) 505th PIR... Bragg
[05:04] (emil^^) 200k american dead - what is that to you or i?
[05:04] (compdoc) hooah505, yeah, just like the vietnamese followed us home
[05:04] (hooah505) comp... different war... different enemy
[05:04] (Astrodog) rond: No US forces are stationed in Singapore. ;)
[05:04] (emil^^) how about just letting iraqi's just fight it out themselves? why waste american lives - and their families suffer?
[05:04] (hooah505) the jihadis have already struck in CONUS
[05:05] (hooah505) and how many subsequent terrorist conspiracies have been uncovered? scores, in fact
[05:05] (rondd) Astro the point ?
[05:05] (bud`) emil^^ the 70% voter turnout amonst 27mil iraqis despite major threats of violence, to me, is indicative of a people who want what we are making possible for them, and is worth the effort. the major threat to basic liberties, life, happiness in that region is chickenshits like yourself and those who lead you down this path to defeat, and I hold you and your ilk partly responsible for the ongoing violence and death
[05:05] (hooah505) these guys want to stick our women in burkas... reduce Christians and Jews to second class citizenship at best....
[05:05] (compdoc) naw - propaganda is propaganda. theres no reason to think they will or can follow us home. In fact, I think its a good arguement that they are attacking because we're there, screwing around
[05:05] (hooah505) we are at war.... and we better start acting like it
[05:06] (bud`) emil^^ oh noes
[05:06] (emil^^) bud - sure many sucked it up and voted - even when they were faced with death threats...............
[05:06] (rondd) Hooah505 its the Navy divers and army divers and the seals yes
[05:06] (Astrodog) rondd: Uhm. You said they were.
[05:06] (Astrodog) :P
[05:06] (patch6) you're being goaded along with that idea of a never-ending threat
[05:06] (bud`) emil^^ its for YOUR sake they want to get bombings in the media. its for YOUR sake they continue to think violence is working
[05:06] (hooah505) patch... it's not just a threat.... the jihadis mean business....
[05:06] (patch6) being played like fools for the pleasure and profit of warmongers
[05:06] (rondd) Astro read again
[05:07] (rondd) must I paste what I posted ?
[05:07] (emil^^) those who voted in iraq - i am impressed with
[05:07] (hooah505) yeah, patch... 9/11, 7/7 London, Madrid, Bali were all figments of my imagination, right?
[05:07] (Astrodog) (rondd) hooah we are still in SK, Phillipenes, Europe etc etc
[05:07] (emil^^) but well - iraq - they have their own issues.........
[05:07] (compdoc) no military generals or advisors make the claim they will follow us if we pull out. Its only a handful of politicians making that claim - ppl who want to continue the war
[05:07] (rondd) where did I say signapore ?
[05:07] (bud`) emil^^ just keep your head in the sand aright.
[05:08] (Astrodog) rondd: We are not "in" Singapore, unless a Navy ship happens to be refueling, or visiting. By that definition, we're in Yemen, too.
[05:08] (Astrodog) Oh.
[05:08] (Astrodog) Hmm.
[05:08] (hooah505) compdoc.... you need to get out more... there are many military who say precisely that
[05:08] (Astrodog) D'oh.
[05:08] (Astrodog) :P
[05:08] (rondd) :)
[05:08] (Astrodog) Dunno where I got Singapore from.
[05:08] (rondd) me neither
[05:08] (rondd) :)
[05:08] (emil^^) bud - i respect those like you......err well not like tyou but those who do what you say and put their own ass on the line
[05:08] (patch6) they weren't figments, but they aren't all provably acts of unprovoked aggression
[05:08] (Astrodog) rond: Ah hah!
[05:08] (hooah505) go to milblogs.com... and read what the grunts in the field have to say
[05:08] (compdoc) hooah505, thats the lie the politicians are pushing - you must be a Bush supporter
[05:08] (Astrodog) You meant singapore, when you said "etc" the first time!
[05:08] (Astrodog) :P
[05:08] (rondd) sure
[05:08] (Astrodog) See? I knew it.
[05:09] (Astrodog) Now, back to my rant. :|
[05:09] (hooah505) patch... I don't give a rat's ass whether they feel provoked or not.. there is no excuse for terrorism and I see it as a declaration of war
[05:09] (hooah505) the Nazis felt provoked by the unfairness of the Versailles Treaty.... so what?
[05:09] (emil^^) we have people who thik we can make a difference via placing our power in iraq..........
[05:09] (hooah505) everybody's got a right to bitch and moan... but not to blow up NYC
[05:09] (rondd) hoooah505 that was an excuse not a provocation
[05:10] (hooah505) compdoc... I indeed voted for Bush... twice, I'm proud to say
[05:10] (emil^^) perhaps i can be proven wrong - but i hate to see american die in iraq - when we should let the sunni's and shite's fight it out themselves
[05:10] (hooah505) indeed, rondd....
[05:10] (rondd) similar tactics are going on today
[05:10] (Astrodog) rondd: I dunno. The Germans got a better deal at the end of WW2, than they got at the end of WW1.
[05:10] (rondd) Astro hitler was nuts
[05:10] (Astrodog) rondd: Yes, he was.
[05:10] (rondd) as I said it was an excuse
[05:10] (patch6) the logical conclusion to "wiping out terrorism" is going to be a control grid on everyone's heads, so that they will never offend the state again
[05:10] (hooah505) Astrodog... Germany looked like the face of the moon in 45..... hardly a good deal
[05:11] (bud`) emil^^ lol you go ahead and pass judgement, you dont know 1 thing about what/when/where/how ive served. go repent
[05:11] (emil^^) astrodog - here you are making sense - it's cheaper to make friends to enemies - but we first have to win the battle
[05:11] (compdoc) hooah505, the universally acclaimed worst persident in history - congrats on your choice
[05:11] (patch6) that's all terrorism is, threatening to usurp state authority, under the post 1935 definition penned by the former league of nations
[05:11] (Astrodog) rondd: Versillies created an untenable situaiton for germany, long term. Only a matter of time before it either regressed, or some nut got in charge.
[05:11] (hooah505) universally acclaimed? by whom? Moveon.org?
[05:11] (hooah505) by whom... the Daily Kos?
[05:11] (hooah505) PULEEEEEAAASSSEE!!!!
[05:12] (patch6) you have this amalgam of "terrorism" being islamic roots and such, but the truth is that terrorism is far greater reaching
[05:12] (hooah505) yeah... it woulda been great if Al Gore had been prez on 9/11... he would have looked to the UN for protection
[05:12] (patch6) the idea of terrorism embodies -all- acts of aggression towards the state
[05:12] (Astrodog) Versillies was the diplomatic version of "Who's your daddy now, bitch?"
[05:12] (emil^^) bud - i may disagree with much of what youv'e said - but i have no fear in acknowledging when i think you have point
[05:12] (hooah505) Gore woulda called upon the French to come and rescue us
[05:13] (patch6) that's your war on terror
[05:13] (Astrodog) hooah: Uhm. Right after 9/11, the French pledged financial, and military support. :P
[05:13] (hooah505) patch... the primary source of terrorism today - overwhelmingly so - is Muslim in origin and motivation
[05:13] (hooah505) there is no reasonable doubt about that
[05:13] (emil^^) post 9/11 - bush did fuck up shit up - (sorry for the collequal) but that is true
[05:13] (hooah505) Astro... wow.. that really made me sleep better at night
[05:13] (bud`) emil^^, dont care, not afraid to tell you i think you are dead wrong as a christian and a person, and shocked how easily you Judge others =P
[05:14] (Astrodog) hooah: With the exception recently of Iraq... the US and France get along just about as well as the US and Britain.
[05:14] (bud`) no im not a religious person but ill damn well call out people who claim they are when they judge
[05:14] (hooah505) the French Foreign Ministry) is to stick it to American whereever and whenever possible
[05:15] (despy) freedom fries!
[05:15] (KoBushi) bud` well, depends on the religion now doesn't it? :P
[05:15] (Astrodog) bud: One could argue that since God works through the faithful, God is just judging you, through emil.
[05:15] (Astrodog) :P
[05:15] (bud`) Astrodog oh noes =P
[05:15] (emil^^) bud - call me what you want you want - i am a christian - ami perfect? no.......but i am willing to discuss any issue you have
[05:15] (despy) one could argue that religion is just another means of social control
[05:15] (KoBushi) Astrodog God doesn't work, that's why you have to give the church money
[05:15] (Astrodog) emil: Meatloaf. Meat, or Bread?
[05:15] (despy) but then again, its much easier to go with the herd and say otherwise
[05:15] (KoBushi) Diety Welfare program
[05:16] (hooah505) when De Gaulle withdrew from NATO and expelled US troops in the 1950s... the US Ambassador to France enquired, should we take our dead from Normandy too?
[05:16] (bud`) emil^^ you're pretty fucking far from christian if you wanna abandon 27 million people who have indicated they are in need of help because you disagree with some cruddy u.s. president =)
[05:16] (emil^^) the only thing i've dicussed today on christianity is giving to those who need help........i stand by that
[05:16] (Astrodog) hooah: You're aware France rejoined NATO shortly afterwards, and even considered joining the UK, right?
[05:16] (hooah505) yeah... the Frogs are great friends of the US... uh huh....sure
[05:16] (despy) Bush is a christian. Nuff said.
[05:17] (hooah505) Astrodog... the Frogs remained outside NATO military command....
[05:17] (Astrodog) Hooah: The frogs, the brits, and the aussies.
[05:17] (emil^^) bud - i dont want iraqi's to die - but commen sense says stay out regligious wars
[05:17] (KoBushi) statements that include "nuff" can't be taken seriously
[05:17] (hooah505) and the union with the UK was an idea briefly floated during the Suez Crisis of 56... it was never seriously considered
[05:17] (bud`) wasnt a religious war until ya'll cop'd out and let it happen
[05:17] (patch6) hooah505, are you aware of al qaeda's origins
[05:17] (hooah505) you'll have to do better than that
[05:17] (despy) KoBushi: if thats all you can say to discredit me, my point stands. thank you come again
[05:17] (hooah505) patch... sure, are you?
[05:18] (KoBushi) despy nothing else about your statements is worth commenting on
[05:18] (patch6) about how it is named after a computer file that contains records of mujahideen that were hired to fight russia during the cold war
[05:18] (Astrodog) hooah: Can you point to a recent forgien policy situation, besides Iraq, where France and the US were diametrically opposed?
[05:18] (despy) KoBushi: because you have no logical alternative.
[05:18] (emil^^) bud - sadly we must pick our battles - not sure about you - but i dont know much about muslim differences between shiites and sunni's......it's not christianity
[05:18] (patch6) and that the name itself simply means "the base", or "the toilet"
[05:18] (patch6) and that no self-respecting terrorist group would name themselves the toilet
[05:19] (despy) KoBushi: its ok. I understand how hard it is for people with this "blind faith" to accept that they worship a fairytale. Its all good.
[05:19] (emil^^) bud - but i guess if you have a vsted interest in teh shiites - they i will defer to you
[05:19] (hooah505) Absolument!!! How about the Balkans in the 1990s... when the UN wanted to intervene to stop the slaughter and the Frogs placed roadblocks at every juncture
[05:19] (KoBushi) despy *shrug* your assumptions are as poor as your grammar and as well thought out as the depth of your statements.
[05:19] (hooah505) Astro... how about Rwanda in 94 when the French aided and abetted the Hutu genocide against the Tutsi?
[05:19] (despy) KoBushi: what's wrong with my grammar? and since when is #politics an english class?
[05:19] (hooah505) You really need to do a bit more reading, Astro....
[05:20] (despy) If all you can do is attack how i say something, and not what i say, you've lost.
[05:20] (bud`) emil^^ its simple really, the battle is wherever people are oppressed, afraid, cut off. Unlike you, I see this, and think its worth every effort possible
[05:20] (emil^^) bud - i dont think christians should dictate how muslims should live thier lives........i dont want to see them die...............
[05:20] (hooah505) nothing to say, Astro?
[05:20] (despy) KoBushi: Its cool man.. I'm not going to judge you like you judge me, christian boy
[05:20] (KoBushi) despy lol, I'm not Christian
[05:20] (Astrodog) hooah: The french have a veto. If they wanted to keep the UN out of the Balkans, they would have.
[05:20] (despy) sure sound like one
[05:20] (KoBushi) despy I don't even like Bush :)
[05:20] (despy) but whatever
[05:21] (emil^^) bud - but the problem is now - should americans, no should christians back the shia? or should we back he sunni?
[05:21] (despy) KoBushi: well, if you'd state your beliefs instead of attacking me, perhaps I'd know that.
[05:21] (bud`) emil^^ nor do i, infact i ignore religion altogether. there are muslim countries where people arent shit on y'know
[05:21] (KoBushi) despy as I said, your assumptions are as poor as your grammar and depth of your statements
[05:21] (emil^^) bud - you' asking me to pick one i think
[05:21] (Tailor) *whatever*, *nuff said*
[05:21] (hooah505) Astro.... that's right... and they did for a few years while everyone slaughtered everyone else with wild abandon
[05:21] (hooah505) thanks for proving my point
[05:21] (despy) KoBushi: and as I've said, unless you can tell me what's wrong with my point of view and grammar, you are just mudslinging.
[05:21] (emil^^) bud - i agree - these countryies need to figure religion out for themselves i think
[05:21] (despy) And I cannot take someone seriously who will not discuss the meat of an issue without mudslinging
[05:22] (despy) let alone even touch on the issue, and just sling mud.
[05:22] (KoBushi) despy "nuff" isn't a word.... and the error with your view is that just because Bush is a christian, it proves nothing about christians, nor neccesarily about Bush
[05:22] (despy) KoBushi: it went along with the current conversation,.
[05:22] (KoBushi) despy because it isn't the case that all christians are identical clones
[05:22] (despy) KoBushi: i didnt say it was
[05:22] (Astrodog) hooah: "France has taken part in the NATO air strikes in Kosovo."
[05:22] (hooah505) KoBushi... you are being anally pedantic.... this isn't Shakespearean rhetoric... this is a political chat room
[05:22] (bud`) emil^^ and africans need to figure out for themselves how to eat, and not get infested with aids
[05:22] (emil^^) bud - you mean well and i know this - i dont think otherwise - i'm sorry if you think i thought otherwise
[05:22] (despy) KoBushi: i said that religion = blind faith in a fairy tale, designed for social control.
[05:23] (KoBushi) hooah505 orly?
[05:23] (hooah505) Astro... that's later... I'm talking about Bosnia
[05:23] (bud`) emil^^ its just NOT OUR PROBLEM
[05:23] (despy) and it is entirely impossible for intelligent people to use less than perfect english in a non formal environment, like the internet.
[05:23] (emil^^) bud - we can help when we can - but the end issue is they need to make their own decision
[05:23] (hooah505) Screbrenica in 1995, for example....
[05:23] (bud`) emil^^ oh im sorry, isnt your church in africa
[05:23] (hooah505) Kobushy.. Orly is an airport in Paris... what's your point?
[05:23] (bud`) isnt it the africans problem?
[05:23] (KoBushi) hooah505 r u sur?
[05:24] (Astrodog) justified risking the lives of French troops, who now number nearly 7,000 in the former Yugoslavia.
[05:24] (hooah505) yup... AKA Charles De Gaulle
[05:24] (Astrodog) That was in 1995.
[05:24] (despy) KoBushi: Jeez.. do you just sit around and flame, and never contribute to any debate? just jump from one attack to another?
[05:24] (emil^^) bud - iraq like africa needs to decide for themselves - i belive in personal choice
[05:24] (bud`) emil^^ the strong have a moral duty to protect the weak, no matter how unpopular the opinion is
[05:24] (Tailor) despy, why wouls you use less than perfect English?
[05:24] (KoBushi) despy nah, I'm still talking to you too :P
[05:24] (despy) Tailor: well, because this is IRC.
[05:24] (despy) I'm not writing a dissertation.
[05:24] (Tailor) despy, why would you choose to?
[05:24] (despy) Tailor: why would you choose not to?
[05:25] (hooah505) Read Richard Holbrook's account of the diplomatic situtation during the mid 1990s Balkan war, Astro... an ugly story
[05:25] (Tailor) despy, what does it being IRC have to do with it?
[05:25] (KoBushi) despy and yes religion is faith ... and all faith is blind, by definition
[05:25] (emil^^) bud - that is a line yes - ......but no, personal choice
[05:25] (despy) KoBushi: i have faith and believe that my table is made of wood.
[05:25] (despy) it can be proven
[05:25] (KoBushi) despy but it isn't all neccesarily "designed" for social control, but absolutely there are social control aspects
[05:25] (KoBushi) despy if it can be proven, then it isn't faith
[05:25] (hooah505) Kobushi... so is science... the annals of science are filled with "facts" later found to be false... what's the diff?
[05:25] (bud`) emil^^ now if iraqis didnt turn out in record numbers to vote despite the major threat of violence, maybe id say rethink it all, but no, lets fucking stand up and do whats right ok?
[05:25] (Astrodog) hooah: France had 7,000 troops there, as part of the UN Peacekeeping force, in 1995.
[05:25] (rightooo) cheers :)
[05:25] (despy) KoBushi: religion , christianity in specific, is designed to put the "fear of god" into its followers
[05:26] (Tailor) despy, do you have faith and proof the wo in your table is made of atoms?
[05:26] (KoBushi) hooah505 the difference is what is based on evidence vs what is accepted w/o sufficient evidence
[05:26] (Tailor) the wood even
[05:26] (KoBushi) despy not all sects
[05:26] (hooah505) Astro... under a toothless UN mandate that made them sit by and watch the slaughter
[05:26] (KoBushi) despy and not all religions... buddhism has no "fear of god"
[05:26] (despy) Tailor: it has been proven that all matter is made of atoms.
[05:26] (KoBushi) despy nor does Toaism, etc
[05:26] (Tailor) despy, have you seen them?
[05:26] (despy) KoBushi: right, only Christianity teaches about burning in eternal damnation for being a bad boy.
[05:26] (rightooo) Tailor ... i think its a theory
[05:26] (KoBushi) faith = belief in something for which their is insufficient evidence
[05:27] (Astrodog) hooah: So.. at that time, France and the US did the same thing. Then, later, France participated with NATO in airstrikes on the serbs, and in Kosovo.
[05:27] (KoBushi) despy well, and Judism and Islam
[05:27] (rightooo) Tailor ... but a theory that has been proven logically
[05:27] (hooah505) ah... but there are myriad "facts" in science that were proved... and then it was decided they were wrong.... the proof system in religion is different, but there is no certainty in either case
[05:27] (KoBushi) despy but, not all christian sects even belive in Satan
[05:27] (emil^^) bud - i wish the iraqi people the best.......but who am i as a christian worse yet as am american........to tell iraqi's what they should belive -??? they are in the midst of a sunni/shiite conflict........they must decicde
[05:27] (Tailor) rightooo, it's not a theory, but despy wants something in his hand before he believes it.
[05:27] (KoBushi) despy and teach that "hell" is merely being out of the presence of God
[05:27] (despy) Tailor: it has been proven with science. I believe gasoline is made from oil, but i haven't watched it being done. It has been scientifically proven.
[05:27] (hooah505) Astro... the US was pushing for armed action against the Serbs.... the Frogs threatened to veto for years....
[05:27] (Tailor) despy, it was proven to you?
[05:27] (rightooo) Tailor , well it was a theory until it had been proven
[05:27] (emil^^) bud - i pick my battles - and there are some issues where i know to stay well away from
[05:28] (bud`) emil^^ you're just completely wrong on the issue. Im not even religious in the slightest way but I'm fully aware we all, who have the ability, should stand up for the poor and oppressed, wherever they may be, and even if it involves sacrifice, makes for a better world and a better future.
[05:28] (hooah505) despy.... WRONG.... Islam teaches of hellfire for the unworthy in the after life as well
[05:28] (rightooo) oO
[05:28] (despy) hooah505: i didnt say otherwise
[05:28] (despy) so im not sure how im wrong
[05:28] (emil^^) bud - well how do you pick which side to defend, no champion???
[05:29] (bud`) emil^^ unlike you, i look beyond who i think belongs in the whitehouse?
[05:29] (hooah505) Islam is just a knock off on Judaism and Christianity anyway
[05:29] (emil^^) bud - you're not even religious let alone muslim - how can you pick sunni over shii'te or vice versa??
[05:29] (despy) religion is one of those things that should enver be debated. The agnostic will remain agnostic, the blind christians will remain blind.
[05:29] (despy) I'm not even sure why i let myself get pulled into this
[05:29] (Astrodog) And the Atheists will remain correct.
[05:29] (Astrodog) :P
[05:29] (emil^^) well try telling 99.9% of iraq that relgion isn't imporant
[05:29] (despy) lol astro
[05:29] (despy) indeed
[05:30] (despy) emil^^: sure its imokrtant. It wouldnt be effective as social control if it wasn't
[05:30] (despy) important*
[05:30] (Tailor) despy, Christians are blind?
[05:30] (Astrodog) We've got Science... nuclear bombs, etc. They've got an invisible dude in the sky. ;)
[05:30] (KoBushi) hooah505 sure, judism evolved from Zorasterism, christianity from judism, islam from christianity and somewhat judism ... and of course each setp along the way incorporated various regional myths/etc
[05:30] (emil^^) well - iraqi's pray 5 times a day....like everyone damn near - they take islam very veyr seriously
[05:30] (despy) Tailor: to me, they seem to be, yes. Blind faith = believe something even knowing tehre is no proof, because mommy and daddy told me how to think
[05:31] (Tailor) despy, seem to be?
[05:31] (emil^^) how can we tell them sunni's or shiite's are right or wrong - as an american i dont think we do this
[05:31] (KoBushi) emil^^ it's easy... they are both wrong
[05:31] (KoBushi) :P
[05:31] (emil^^) we dont know shit about islam (i dont)
[05:31] (despy) Tailor: yes, they seem to be blind. They are told how to think, and they just accept it. They are blind to the real world, in my opinion.
[05:31] (despy) remember, i am stating each adn every time this is my opinion only.
[05:31] (Tailor) despy, I'm a Christian, and I'm not blind, I don'thave blind faith, and I'm not lead by the church, does that shock you?
[05:31] (despy) everyone is entitled to their beliefs
[05:31] (despy) it doesnt shock me that you think that, no.
[05:31] (emil^^) kobushi - yes - but telling an entire country their religion is wrong or stupid..........ack!!! imagine
[05:32] (Kalomine) despy: my christian faith has nothing to do with my "mommy" or "daddy"
[05:32] (despy) Are you an every sunday go to church guy?
[05:32] (Astrodog) Faith is your brain's way of saying... "I can't handle reality". ;)
[05:32] (rightooo) why dont let have people have their faith
[05:32] (Tailor) despy, then why would you jump to the conclusion that all Christians are "blind"?
[05:32] (Astrodog) rightoo: They can have their faith.
[05:32] (Astrodog) And I can mock them for it.
[05:32] (Astrodog) :P
[05:32] (patch6) that's kind of mean spirited
[05:33] (Tailor) despy, no, I'm not a church goer.
[05:33] (emil^^) astrodog - of course there are many many people who think religion is just dumb or stupid or ignorant - perhaps that is why so many iraqi's think we're so backasswards.
[05:33] (despy) astro i agree with yuo entirely. But, im sure you know how impossible it is to tell that to someone with all that blind faith blocking their mind
[05:33] (Astrodog) emil: Religion is belief, without proof. That's what faith is.
[05:33] (despy) Tailor: so then, by christian terms, you're not a good christian. You may burn in hell for that.
[05:33] (compdoc) emil^^, why do they think we're 'backasswards'?
[05:33] (Tailor) despy, why would I burn in hell for that? It's not mandatory.
[05:34] (emil^^) here in the u.s. it's easy to make fron of religions - but making fun of religion in iraq is like making fun of christitaity in 1800 U.S.
[05:34] (despy) Cause thats how it works bubba
[05:34] (Tailor) despy, well no, that's not how it works *bubba*.
[05:34] (rightooo) despy , i dont think Christianity blames people for not going to church
[05:34] (emil^^) make fun sure - but salem witch trials???
[05:35] (despy) rightooo: Thats just a sidepoint anyways, and far from the main focus of what im saying.
[05:35] (rightooo) despy , it comes down for them to believe in the essences
[05:35] (bud`) emil^^ ive never said that have I? I just think you're wrong, in being a christian, and so willfully wanting to abandon so many in need of support right now, all because of a minority of thugs
[05:35] (emil^^) how many people today get stoned in other societies?
[05:35] (Tailor) despy, and what was the main point of what you are saying?
[05:35] (emil^^) bud - see - i can respect you tho! this is major!
[05:36] (emil^^) bud - i dont care what you think about me as a chrisitan - i know you have a right to disagree
[05:36] (despy) Tailor: I've said it two times already, but here goes again. Religion is nothing more than a means of social control. People put their blind faith into worshipping a book of fairy tales.
[05:36] (emil^^) but now lets think about iraq
[05:36] (bud`) sure, but i lose respect for you and what faith it is you have to make you this way
[05:36] (despy) thats what I said, and thats all I'm trying to say.
[05:36] (emil^^) bud - you're missing the point
[05:36] (Kalomine) despy: actually the Bible is historically accurate
[05:36] (bud`) no, im not missing any point. you lose
[05:37] (emil^^) iraq - is a very very non-secular society and it's and islamic society
[05:37] (Tailor) despy, well, there is only one way to say this, you are wrong.
[05:37] (despy) Kalomine: sure it is. I'm positive that moses parted the sea, and all that other nonsense.
[05:37] (bud`) that should not matter to a christian
[05:37] (KoBushi) Kalomine in some respects... but it's also full of historical innacuracies too
[05:37] (despy) Tailor: you are entitled to think that, and I'd expect you to say that.
[05:37] (Tailor) despy, I also don't believe in a book.
[05:37] (Kalomine) kobushi: which ones?
[05:37] (bud`) all gods children amirite?
[05:37] (despy) Tailor: christianity IS a book. Without that book of fairy tales, there is no Christianity!
[05:37] (emil^^) iraq isn't a christian society - we have to view this from an islamic viewpoint
[05:37] (Kalomine) despy: wrong
[05:37] (Tailor) despy, and if you aren't a Christian, obviously you don't know what it's about.
[05:38] (emil^^) iraq isn't a christian society - we have to view this from an islamic viewpoint
[05:38] (bud`) emil^^ nope, they are all gods children
[05:38] (despy) Kalomine: wrong? moses DID part the sea, and you have proof that it is a fact?
[05:38] (Tailor) despy, no, the book wasn't written by God, it was written y man.
[05:38] (KoBushi) Kalomine http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22historical+errors+in+the+bible%22
[05:38] (despy) show me, for fucks sake! heh
[05:38] (emil^^) bud - you're making this about me - dont do that..........
[05:38] (despy) Tailor: agreed 100%
[05:38] (bud`) emil^^ im quoting the freekin bible
[05:38] (bud`) are you the bible
[05:38] (patch6) http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2007/tst052107.htm pretty much adresses the war's failings
[05:38] (emil^^) it is law there that if you're wife cheats on you she should be stoned to death
[05:39] (Tailor) despy, you clearly don't know what being a Christian is.
[05:39] (despy) It was crafted by man. Very intelligent men.
[05:39] (Tailor) despy, sorry for you ignorance.
[05:39] (KoBushi) emil^^ stoned to death? ... man thats a LOT of pot
[05:39] (emil^^) we have very very different standards
[05:39] (Tailor) your even
[05:39] (Kalomine) kobushi: sorry, googling doesn't count
[05:39] (despy) Tailor: Have I gotten personal with you? There is no need for that.
[05:39] (bud`) KoBushi lol
[05:39] (emil^^) our religious background which is the west..........is very very different
[05:39] (Tailor) despy, it wasn't an insult, I'm pointing out you don't know what you are talking about.
[05:39] (despy) I will not call you ignorant. I will say you are entitled to your opinion.
[05:39] (KoBushi) Kalomine *shrug* guess you don't want to know then :P
[05:40] (bud`) emil^^ so you disagree with the bible
[05:40] (despy) The only way I could know what I'm talking about, to you, would be if I was a Christian and agreed with you. No?
[05:40] (Tailor) despy, I didn't share an opinion.
[05:40] (bud`) emil^^ just pick and chose your own
[05:40] (emil^^) we are attempting to apply our standards to an islamic society...........this is rather confusing
[05:40] (despy) Right, you consider your opinions "fact"
[05:40] (despy) facts require proof. Prove something.
[05:40] (Kalomine) kobushi: no, I want you to know, because the FIRST page I checked had an error in itself
[05:40] (Tailor) despy, you would have to understand Christianity, and you clearly do not.
[05:40] (despy) I've read the bible, old and new testament.
[05:40] (Kalomine) kobushi: googling doesn't count nor do biased websites
[05:40] (emil^^) bud - i'm not talking abou my faith - i'm talking about mideastern mores and social standards............this is apples and oranges
[05:41] (despy) I've been preached to before
[05:41] (despy) I've been to church
[05:41] (despy) What do I not understand?
[05:41] (Tailor) despy, nobody said there was any proof, or fact.
[05:41] (despy) Tailor: there must be fact if you flat out say I'm wrong
[05:41] (Tailor) despy, are you looking for proof of god esisting?)
[05:41] (emil^^) christians dont belive in female genital mutilation - but 90% of egyption girls do suffer through FGM as a right of passage
[05:41] (Tailor) existing?
[05:41] (despy) Opinions are never wrong, because opinions aren't fact. Right?
[05:41] (bud`) emil^^ ok, fair enough, lets say your not trolling and you really are religious, yet ignore the bible and muslims arent gods children, just some kind of animals
[05:42] (bud`) where is your belief
[05:42] (emil^^) bud - stop that - i'm trying to explain that the world is not american-centric
[05:42] (Tailor) despy, I didn't say you were wrong, I said you are ignorant.
[05:42] (bud`) that the poor should be protected
[05:42] (despy) Tailor: No. I have no problem with there being a god, or there not being a god. I am only discussing organized religion as a whole.
[05:42] (despy) In specific today, christianity.
[05:42] (despy) 08:43 (+Tailor) despy, well, there is only one way to say this, you are wrong.
[05:42] (emil^^) look - 90% of egyption girls often with a razor blade or peice of glas get thier clit cut out as a right of passage
[05:42] (despy) No, looks like you said im wrong
[05:42] (KoBushi) Kalomine well for example, they are off on the destruction of Ai, it occured before Joshua, and so couldn't have been conquored by him, the book of Daniel is chok full of errors, and was written 500 years after the events that it "predicted"
[05:42] (Tailor) despy, so because there is organized religion, all Christians are *blind*?
[05:43] (emil^^) this is horribly barbaric and simply wrong
[05:43] (despy) blind faith, right?
[05:43] (Kalomine) KoBushi: hmmm
[05:43] (despy) which means blind to anything other than their faith
[05:43] (emil^^) so why not invade egypt and take thier country over to set things right?
[05:43] (despy) because if they had an open mind to other ideas, it wouldnt be "blind faith"
[05:43] (patch6) what about circumcision then
[05:43] (emil^^) this is not me being a fucking troll
[05:43] (Tailor) despy, are all people that eat fast food *blind* to good health?
[05:43] (patch6) same thing, you're not going to start any wars over that
[05:43] (KoBushi) Kalomine it refers to king David... but there is no evidence of such a king, desite accurate records
[05:43] (emil^^) the world is sick and there are things that are horrible
[05:43] (Kalomine) KoBushi: since MANY of the claims of historical inaccuracies of the bible have been rebutted, I still tend to believe the Bible more than modern scholars who have been debunked/rebutted
[05:44] (emil^^) you asked me why dont i want to help iraq - well why not help egypt???
[05:44] (despy) Tailor: no. But if they say that fast food is good for them, and noone can make them change their mind, thats blind.
[05:44] (bud`) emil^^ this a very simple and very real scenario, why is it you think 27mil iraqis deserve an uncertain future, without someone trying to guarantee their basic rights and survival, why are you so insitant we abandon them for our own selfish needs
[05:44] (Kalomine) kobushi: actually there have been references found of King David in the last 10 years *shrug*
[05:44] (emil^^) bud - what about all of the genocide that is happening in rowanda??
[05:44] (Tailor) despy, you have this silly concept that those who have faith in God are ruled by the church, nothing could be further from the truth.
[05:44] (patch6) there are gross abuses of human rights occuring all over the place, it's not the US's role to reform every government that turns a blind eye to it
[05:45] (emil^^) we have a world that i can't stand for the most part - but we have to choose our battles
[05:45] (patch6) or that even participates in it
[05:45] (Streekr) the best way to lie is to tell 99% truth and 1% lie
[05:45] (bud`) emil^^ im not a christian, so im not an expert, i just woulda thought you guys would stand up for the weakest, without fear, and tried to do the right thing by them
[05:45] (KoBushi) Kalomine so why bother to say that it is historically accurate, and then ask for some of the innacuracies if you aren't actually willing to consider that it's innacurate anyway?
[05:45] (KoBushi) that seems a complete waste of time :/
[05:45] (despy) Tailor: To some extent they are. Ruled by the church and by their peers who are ruled by the church. It all comes back to faith in that fairy tale.
[05:45] (KoBushi) "How is it inaccurate? ... Oh well... I'm gonna belive it anyway" ?? :P
[05:45] (Kalomine) kobushi: because I challenge anyone who claims it is to find out why they think it is to hope challenge their thinking
[05:45] (emil^^) bud - as a christian of COURSE i want to stand up for those who need it......but we need to pick our battles
[05:46] (despy) Tailor: There is no end to this. We can go in circles for all eternity. Thats why I dislike talking about religion like this. You have your opinion, I have mine. We have to agree to disagree.
[05:46] (KoBushi) Kalomine I see, how intellectually dishonest of you :/
[05:46] (Tailor) despy, no, not to any extent, they are all individuals and when they leave church they talk about it, and many will say the preacher is full of shit.
[05:46] (emil^^) 90% of egyption girls is a major issue too - are you calling out to stop that?
[05:46] (bud`) emil^^ its ok, no hard feelings ok? just my opinion of christians has plummeted after this interview with you
[05:46] (despy) I just hope that each of us can take one good point from the other and consider it.
[05:46] (Tailor) despy, that's why you are ignorant, you don't partake or even know of those conversations.
[05:46] (emil^^) bud - well thank God you know best
[05:46] (bud`) i only know from you
[05:46] (Kalomine) intellectually dishonest? no...it's also to find out anything new that I have not been exposed to as an argument against
[05:46] (despy) Tailor: again, you call me a name and then say "oh no, that wasnt name calling"
[05:47] (emil^^) bud i said i'm not a model christian......far from it - but if you think the evil in the world is limited to iraq then open your eyes
[05:47] (despy) I haven't said a single thing that could be flaming towards you
[05:47] (Kalomine) kobushi: I was very much interested in "how so" the bible was with error
[05:47] (despy) I hoped for the same respect
[05:47] (Streekr) if no one is willing to listen, what good does it to do to speak?
[05:47] (bud`) emil^^ why would i think that? weve covered everywhere
[05:47] (Kalomine) kobushi: to see if it was something new that I had not heard of......and as a blanket statement by you, I wanted to see why YOU thought it was........it's not intellectually dishonest
[05:48] (despy) With that said, I'm done with this topic. Again, you are entitled to your opinion as am I. If either of us considered the others opinion, then it was worth something.
[05:48] (rondd) saying you are an ignorant fool is name calling, saying you are ignorant is describing a degree of a lack if something
[05:48] (Tailor) despy, you seem to be of a belief that being *ignorant* is an insult.
[05:48] (Tailor) despy, do you know the meaning of the word?
[05:48] (despy) Tailor: and you seem to be of the belief that you can label someone with an offensive word and then say its not offensive.
[05:48] (Tailor) despy, it's not an offensive word.
[05:49] (despy) Tailor: if i said you were inept, thats cool?
[05:49] (Tailor) Inept at what?
[05:49] (freetrad3) Abusive Domain or User
[05:49] (despy) i haven't used one blanket term to describe you.
[05:49] (Tailor) despy, not if the word applied, no.
[05:49] (despy) You feel you must do that to me
[05:49] (Tailor) Blanket term?
[05:49] (emil^^) apparently if i belive in your eyes that iraq is a lost cause......apparently if i belive shiite's and sunni's wanna kill each other - i am well someone wrong - it's your choice bud - belive what you want........but i'm just 1 person - and i see iraq as a mistake weather you agree with this or not
[05:49] (despy) yes. You wrapped my whole opinion up in one tidy word.
[05:49] (Tailor) despy, you don't understand Christianity.
[05:50] (despy) You don't understand anything other than christianity.
[05:50] (Tailor) despy, and I'm sorry you are ignorant of the facts around it, but you are.
[05:50] (despy) I'm sorry you are blind.
[05:50] (Tailor) despy, well no, I'm not blind.
[05:50] (despy) Can this discussion end?
[05:50] (Streekr) blind with faith?
[05:50] (despy) I've tried twice to end it on a happy positive note, and two times you've refused to let it happen.
[05:51] (Tailor) despy, and I'm not following the church.
[05:51] (emil^^) and because a single self-proclaimed chrisitan things iraq is not a just war - then go ahead and demean all of the billion chrisitans bud..........
[05:51] (Tailor) despy, *blkindly*.
[05:51] (Tailor) despy, nor do most Christians.
[05:51] (despy) Awesome. If you'd tell me more about that instead of using nice neat words to dismiss me with, we may have learned something.
[05:51] (hooah505) Tailor... what about the Christian doctrine of supercessionism that has set in train 2,000 of anti-Jewish teaching and persecution?
[05:51] (hooah505) 2000 years
[05:51] (Tailor) despy, I can dismiss you by simply devoicing you, I haven't.
[05:52] (despy) If all people with that ability had the power to devoice anyone who doesnt agree with their opinion, this would be a lame channel. no?
[05:52] (bud`) emil^^ hey im not the christian, i dont know, i thought you guys believe we are all gods children, and the 27mil iraqis suffering under the violence should deserve better than a copout kneejerk attitude
[05:52] (KoBushi) despy you keep complaining about people's dismissal of your claims... but perhaps the problem isn't other people's failure to articulate, but your's? :P
[05:52] (hooah505) emil... you keep repeating yourself... you are guilty of the worst online sin... being boring
[05:52] (Kalomine) hooah: I'm a christian and have been one for over a decade and have never been taught or exposed to "supercessionism" in name or in doctrine and in fact have been taught the opposite that Jesus' earthly ministry was to the Jews
[05:52] (Tailor) despy, the only think I'm trying to get you to learn is that your blanket ideas about Christians are, well, absolutely wrong.
[05:53] (bud`) it wouldnt be so hard to help them out if we just said hey, lets get this done
[05:53] (despy) Tailor: So instead of dismissing me, explain how its wrong. I'm open to learning. Can the same be said about you?
[05:53] (Streekr) kalomine : cuz its not the cool thing to preach anymore
[05:53] (hooah505) Kalomine... do you believe that with the coming of Jesus, that the Jewish law was rendered invalid and that people were now justified through faith in Jesus?
[05:53] (Tailor) hooah505, like Kalomine, I haven't even heard of "supercessionism".
[05:53] (bud`) imagine if just a couple countries agreed, yes, its wrong to let iraq fall into chaos
[05:54] (KoBushi) hooah505 no, we must continue to sacrifice sheep!
[05:54] (bud`) its not some fucking impossible fantasy
[05:54] (Kalomine) streekr: it's never been the RIGHT thing to preach even if it was COOL in some parts of christendom at some times...
[05:54] (hooah505) supercessionsim is the doctrine... central to Christianity.... that Judaism is invalid and superceeded by Chrstianity
[05:54] (Tailor) despy, if you were open to listening and learning, you would have heard what I told you, and if you aren't paying attention, you may be stupid on top of being ignorant.
[05:54] (KoBushi) yes, you must sacrifice lambs to God to have your sins forgiven
[05:54] (Streekr) have any of you heard where God ordained that it was just to kill people and conquer the holy land (crusades) in the name of Christ?
[05:54] (Kalomine) hooah: scripture teaches that Christ fulfilled the law God gave to the Jews but the law is in Jesus
[05:54] (hooah505) Kobushi... not possible because the Temple has been destroyed since 70 CE
[05:54] (despy) Tailor: That just went a long way to show that you cannot have a discussion like an adult.
[05:54] (KoBushi) hooah505 oh well, everyone goes to hell then
[05:55] (hooah505) no animal sacrifices...
[05:55] (KoBushi) :P
[05:55] (despy) Whats next, a devoice because I'm open to hearing your ideas?
[05:55] (hooah505) nope, Kobushi... in Judaism you are assesed on the basis of deeds....
[05:55] (Tailor) despy, well I'm talking to a kid, although again, you haven't picked up on what I said to you, Christians are not *blind*, is that simple enough?
[05:55] (Kalomine) hooah: Jesus embodies the law, is the final sacrifice for transgressions, is the priest/king/prophet by which we go to......
[05:55] (Streekr) hooah505, i like that idea
[05:55] (hooah505) "hell" is such a Christian concept anyway
[05:55] (KoBushi) hooah505 but if you don't sacrifice the lamb, your sins stay! mwahaha
[05:56] (hooah505) your ignorance of Judaism is rather astounding Kobushi
[05:56] (KoBushi) thus why Jesus was "the lamb of god"
[05:56] (KoBushi) hooah505 judism isn't the same as it was in jesus' time
[05:56] (despy) Tailor: So just cause you said so, i should believe it. No explanation, no proof, nothing. Just "I said so, and i can devoice you, so believe me". Sounds awefully Christian to me. "Believe what I say, I have power over you"
[05:56] (emil^^) kalomine it's simple - dont overthing - those who belive in christianity have thier own belief
[05:57] (Kalomine) emil: ?? i'm not sure I understand your statement to something I said...it seems non sequitor
[05:57] (hooah505) modern rabbinic Judaism is pharasiac Judaism... but then you have the disparaging way in which pharisees are described in the Xian bible
[05:57] (emil^^) despy - religion is kinda like that - some things we just have to take on faithi - i.e. 'prove you love your mother' - hint - you can't you can say it - u can buy her flowers you can never proove it
[05:57] (Tailor) despy, well we can try another angle, are all Jews also *blind*?
[05:57] (despy) oh, and "you are stupid and ignorant because you dont accept what i say at face value without expl[anation, cause i have devoice powers"
[05:57] (despy) Tailor: Jews dont believe in hell. No fear of God.
[05:57] (emil^^) fact is religion is well - a religion.....
[05:57] (Tailor) despy, how about all atheists??
[05:57] (Tailor) Are atheists blind too?
[05:58] (despy) Tailor: Athiests can be blind, yes
[05:58] (emil^^) but we can respect those who think otherwise - that is respectful to say the least
[05:58] (Tailor) despy, why do Jews have to believe in Hell?
[05:58] (KoBushi) hooah505 do you understand that prior to jesus animal sacrifice was required for sin forgivness? And that that is why jesus is the "lamb of god" because thru him now can be forgiven those sins instead of animal sacrifice
[05:58] (KoBushi) ?
[05:58] (hooah505) despy.... that's silly... especially in light of the fact that the hassidim are also known as Haredim... which is Hebrew for those who live in awe or fear of Hashem G-d
[05:58] (Tailor) despy, and where did you get the idea Christians are in fear of God?
[05:58] (KoBushi) Where would that come from if that weren't the case?
[05:58] (hooah505) despy needs to do a bit of reading about Judaism
[05:58] (hooah505) along with Kobushi
[05:59] (emil^^) kobushi - old testament jews - sure - animal sacrafices were considered normal - also with other religions today - i have no issues with those practicing thier faith
[05:59] (Aufklaren) Fear, in this sense, can mean awe.
[05:59] (despy) Tailor: thats like asking why i think the pope is in the vatican. It's common knowledge. Christians call themselves "god fearing people"
[05:59] (Aufklaren) It doesn't necessarily mean fear in the sense of a scary movie.
[05:59] (Aufklaren) Godfearing just means in awe of God.
[05:59] (KoBushi) hooah505 so, you don't know then? :)
[05:59] (KoBushi) hooah505 I already told you, judism has changed since then
[06:00] (hooah505) if you want to be direct about it, the entire edifice of Christianity collapses once one realises that the virgin birth - one of its pillars is based upon a verifiable mistranslation of the Hebrew
[06:00] (Tailor) despy, well again you don't understand that, they don't fear god.
[06:00] (Kalomine) is "proverbs" a "jewish" book?
[06:00] (emil^^) look - i dont mind people practicing thier faith - all in all that isa good thing
[06:00] (despy) Aufklaren: well, i can look up the word fear in the dictionary, and i dont think "awe" will be in the list. Please prove me wrong.
[06:00] (Kalomine) do Jews give weight and credence to the book of Proverbs?
[06:00] (hooah505) of course, Kalomine... we even read it in the original....
[06:00] (Tailor) despy, and then there is the fact that you lump all Christians into a group that may believe in fearing God.
[06:00] (hooah505) it was written in Hebrew, you know
[06:00] (Aufklaren) depsy: Find a better dictionary.
[06:00] (emil^^) no matter what happens - people will hate you for your faithk, weather you be chrisitan, muslim, jewish, hindo, buddish, name it
[06:01] (Tailor) despy, and of course you don't know anyone that fears God, do you?
[06:01] (Aufklaren) Try Merriam-Webster.
[06:01] (hooah505) we don't rely on translations of translations
[06:01] (Aufklaren) http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fear
[06:01] (Aufklaren) : to have a reverential awe of (fear God)
[06:01] (despy) hooah505: i believe that sperm has to come in contact with an egg to make a child. Immaculate conception. Yea. I'm sure theres a 14 year old girl right now claiming she is pregnant by immaculate conception, because she didnt sleep with her boyfriend, promise!
[06:01] (KoBushi) hooah505 it crumbles with the idea that an all-powerful God has to "sacrifice" his son in order to forgive people thier sins and replace animal sacrifice... since an ALLpowerful god could simply forgive them :P
[06:01] (Aufklaren) That's the third definition on the list.
[06:01] (Kalomine) hooah: what does proverbs 1:7 say?
[06:01] (KoBushi) hooah505 but I find it ironic that you say I have to read about it, when you don't know the history :P
[06:01] (hooah505) Kalomine... let me check
[06:01] (emil^^) i am just glad i live in teh u.s. were i have the right to practice my faith - some people will just never be happy no matter what our faith - they want to hate our convictions........
[06:02] (KoBushi) despy I know 2 women who got pregnent without having "sex"
[06:02] (hooah505) eh... Kobushi.. don't you Christians believe in teh binding of Issac?
[06:02] (despy) KoBushi: of course you do
[06:02] (despy) So, we should make a religionf or them too!
[06:02] (KoBushi) hooah505 I'm not a christian
[06:02] (Streeker) emil : unless your muslim, its prison, email reading and wiretapping for you
[06:02] (Streeker) youre
[06:02] (KoBushi) despy it's pretty simple, someone ejaculated on thier vagina, sperm can travel thru the hymen
[06:03] (hooah505) Kalomine: "1/7. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and discipline."
[06:03] (emil^^) i may become passe to be againsnt a religion.....but that is anyone's rights.
[06:03] (Tailor) despy, they could als get pregnant in a clinic.
[06:03] (hooah505) ah, Kobushi.... you are an equal opportunity despiser of religion
[06:03] (emil^^) i just hope that those in america can continue to respect the right to hold upon a faith
[06:03] (KoBushi) hooah505 who said I "despise" it?
[06:04] (KoBushi) hooah505 pointing out history is "despising"?
[06:04] (hooah505) my exegisis, Kobushi
[06:04] (Kalomine) hooah: That's one reason why Christians are "God Fearing Christians"
[06:04] (Aufklaren) depsy: I think you're confusing the Immaculate Conception and the Virgin Birth, anyway. The latter is Christian dogma - the former is only Roman Catholic.
[06:04] (Streeker) emil : president george herbert walker bush said 'Atheists shouldnt be citizens, because this is 'one nation under god'
[06:04] (hooah505) uh... Kalomine.. ok... so what?
[06:05] (Kalomine) hooah: you had mentioned earlier that Jews don't believe in hell and do not fear God
[06:05] (emil^^) streeker - i dont give a care about whatever he said or did not say - ........we have freemdom to belive what we do
[06:05] (Aufklaren) The Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with Jesus in a direct sense.
[06:05] (KoBushi) hooah505 well you are wrong *shrug*
[06:05] (Astrodog) Aufk: Immaculate Conception is how you avoid the subject of God's Sperm.
[06:05] (Astrodog) :P
[06:05] (compdoc) I thought that was all about jesus
[06:05] (Aufklaren) It just means that Mary was born free from Original Sin and never sinned during her life (I believe).
[06:05] (emil^^) at least we do have the right to belive on how we see fit - i relly love this
[06:06] (hooah505) no, Kalomine.. I didn't say that Jews don't fear Hashem... I said that you Christians had taken the concept of hell and inflated it beyond all recognition... it's a minor element of Jewish theology
[06:06] (hooah505) we don't obsess about it
[06:06] (KoBushi) Aufklaren yeah, because it's tottaly realistic that Mary and Joseph were married thier whole life and never had sex :P
[06:06] (Aufklaren) Who was conceived when Zeus urinated on his mother?
[06:06] (emil^^) EXAMPLE - in spain 99.5% of people are born catholic - they dont have a choice
[06:06] (emil^^) same goes with portugual
[06:06] (Astrodog) Aufk: Twobar.
[06:06] (rondd) Aufklaren it does refer to devine conception
[06:06] (emil^^) at least in america we have the right to chose our faith and not to have to petition to not be of another faith
[06:07] (Kalomine) hooah: how are jews forgiven of sin now a days?
[06:07] (Astrodog) Kalo: A drinking binge.
[06:07] (Astrodog) Oooh.
[06:07] (Streeker) emil : there is a certain prosecution where if you dont believe in the Catholic/Christian god, you are frowned upon
[06:07] (emil^^) kalomine that is a blah question.........plz explain
[06:07] (Aufklaren) KoBushi: Oh, absolutely. Who was it that said - paraphrased - "either all of the natural order that has always been was suddenly suspended at the conception of Christ, or a Jewish minx has been lying about who she's been sleeping with."
[06:07] (Astrodog) Forgiven.
[06:07] (Astrodog) I thought that was commit.
[06:07] (Astrodog) :P
[06:07] (Aufklaren) rondd: Yeah, Mary's divine conception free from original sin. Not Jesus'.
[06:07] (emil^^) streeker - this is why i love america - we can choose our faith
[06:08] (hooah505) We ask Hashem and our fellow humans for forgiveness on Yom Kippur... and we are judged on the basis of our deeds .... but all Jews, as well as righteous gentiles as well, have a place in the world to come
[06:08] (rondd) Auflklaren I was raised a catholic
[06:08] (rondd) no it means exactly as I said
[06:08] (rondd) Devine conception
[06:08] (emil^^) in portugal i hav ea friend.........her dad has a mistress - and this is normal - this is her mom - why? cuz divorce is aginst the church
[06:08] (Streeker) aufklare : sounds like a woody allen quote
[06:08] (rondd) er divine
[06:08] (KoBushi) hooah505 so, do you claim that Jews did not practice animal sacrifice in biblical times?
[06:08] (hooah505) anyone who lives a righteous life has a place in the world to come, according to Jewish theological concepts
[06:09] (hooah505) nope, Kobushi.. I never claimed that...
[06:09] (Aufklaren) rondd: What are you talking about? Immaculate Conception is the belief that Mary was born free from original sin, as per her role as the mother of the Saviour. It has nothing to do with the virginal birth of Jesus Christ.
[06:09] (Astrodog) hooah: Righteous, in the sense of surfers, I hope.
[06:09] (hooah505) of course they did.... that's what the Cohanim and the whole Temple ritual was about
[06:09] (emil^^) different religions of course have contentions..............but i am proud america gives us the right to choose our own faith
[06:09] (emil^^) or even lack-there-of
[06:09] (rondd) Aufklaren to the catholics it means exactly as I said
[06:09] (Aufklaren) rondd: To the Catholics, Immaculate Conception is the belief that Mary was born free from sin.
[06:09] (rondd) at least it did before I quite going to the catholic church
[06:10] (Streeker) emil, its not that great, ask the prisoners at Guantanemo Bay
[06:10] (Aufklaren) rondd: I don't know if you're confusing it with the Virgin Birth, but...
[06:10] (Astrodog) rondd: Divine Conception would, literally mean "God Fucking", basically.
[06:10] (Astrodog) :P
[06:10] (emil^^) streeker - what the hell are you talking about?
[06:10] (KoBushi) hooah505 then why do you think that pointing that out, and pointing out that is part of the reasoning behind Jesus's "sacrifice"... means that someone hates judaism?
[06:10] (Aufklaren) rondd: Immaculate Conception means that Mary was conceived in a state free from sin, which the rest of humanity is not.
[06:10] (hooah505) but Saducceean - priestly - Judaism vansished with the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE
[06:10] (Astrodog) CE?
[06:10] (Streeker) emil - all those people being held hostage at Guantanemo Bay, what religion are they?
[06:11] (Aufklaren) Astrodog: Common Era.
[06:11] (Astrodog) No AD anymore?
[06:11] (emil^^) streeker - well they are allowed to pray 5 times a day and they are given meals concurrent their their faith if thier islamic
[06:11] (Aufklaren) Astrodog: It has the same timeline as Before Christ/Anno Domini, but not the religious connotations.
[06:11] (hooah505) Kobushi.. I was pointing out the centrality of supercessionist Christian doctrine to the persecution inflicted upon Jews by the church throughout the past two millennia
[06:11] (Aufklaren) Astrodog: It has become pretty popular. Most academic texts now use the systems interchangeably.
[06:11] (Astrodog) Aufk: Ah. What replaces BC?
[06:11] (Aufklaren) BCE
[06:12] (Aufklaren) Before Common Era / Common Era.
[06:12] (Aufklaren) Pretty simple. :p
[06:12] (Astrodog) Before Common Era?
[06:12] (hooah505) Before Common Era
[06:12] (Astrodog) That's lame! :P
[06:12] (Astrodog) Should be... UE.
[06:12] (Aufklaren) I don't see the point in changing it from BC/AD if you're going to use Jesus as the same starting point.
[06:12] (Astrodog) Uncommon Era.
[06:12] (Astrodog) ;)
[06:12] (emil^^) steeker - unlike most countries the u.s. realy does care and shows deference to those of differign religions then our mainstream
[06:12] (hooah505) it makes sense if you don't believe in the Christian messiah
[06:12] (KoBushi) hooah505 no you weren't, you werer accusing me of being ignorant of judism and hating it
[06:12] (KoBushi) hooah505 for pointing out HISTORY
[06:13] (Astrodog) Aufk: Its 22 AAB, at the moment.
[06:13] (emil^^) aufklaren sure i dont care - call it BCE = whatever makes you feel better
[06:13] (Astrodog) 22 Years After Astrodog's Birth. :P
[06:13] (hooah505) I plead guilty to the former, Kobushi.. but my comment about Christianty's hostility to Judaism was general, not personal
[06:13] (Aufklaren) We should the dating system to one representative of the decline of the Roman Empire.
[06:13] (Aufklaren) Or the year Caesar
[06:13] (Aufklaren) Doh
[06:13] (Aufklaren) Or the year Ceasar crossed the Rubicon.
[06:13] (Aufklaren) Or something like that.
[06:13] (Astrodog) Aufk: After Crazyshit... could be used for "After Nero".
[06:13] (Astrodog) ;)
[06:13] (emil^^) yes lets have 15 differnt dating systems.........i would lke to use the mayan one - others may wish the chinese one
[06:13] (Streeker) emil : so youre ok with the greatest country in the world who lets anyone practice whatever they want, whether it be Catholic, christian, mormom, or Jehovahs witness, but I'm sure has a list of outspoken muslims in their back pocket?
[06:14] (Aufklaren) Let's adopt a secular, historically-based one that everyone can use and agree to.
[06:14] (Streeker) and rounds the questionable muslims up into jails without proper courts
[06:14] (Astrodog) Aufk: Alright.
[06:14] (KoBushi) Aufklaren lol yeah that's gonna happen :/
[06:14] (Astrodog) How about "After Now" and "Before Now"?
[06:14] (emil^^) streeker - i do strongly belive that we as americans should allow those here to pracitice their own faith
[06:14] (Aufklaren) KoBushi: When I'm Dictator of the World, it's first thing on the agenda.
[06:14] (Aufklaren) KoBushi: After putting you in a concentration camp.
[06:15] (Astrodog) Aufk: By himself.
[06:15] (KoBushi) Aufklaren you will fail, I can't concentrate
[06:15] (Aufklaren) Yes, by himself.
[06:15] (KoBushi) :P
[06:15] (Streeker) emil, we do! as long as they believe in Christ
[06:15] (patch6) or xenu
[06:15] (emil^^) i am proud that america is a conglomerate of cultures and faiths, weathe ri agree or not is not an issue
[06:15] (Astrodog) KoB: You'll concentrate... Or you're going to Twobar camp.
[06:15] (KoBushi) Aufklaren did you know that nazi germany orange juice WASN'T "made from concentrate" ?
[06:15] (KoBushi) :o
[06:16] (emil^^) streeker - i disagree - if your a jew, wiccan, muslim, i dont care.........#1 you should be american
[06:16] (hooah505) well.. this has turned into theology chat rather than politics chat
[06:16] (Astrodog) KoB: From, or By...
[06:16] (KoBushi) hooah505 the two are inseperable
[06:16] (hooah505) in some sense, I suppose
[06:16] (Streeker) emil : try believing in Paganism, satanism or something else other than Christ, buddishm and see how few friends you have and lets see your faith in the law afterwards
[06:16] (Aufklaren) Let's talk about something really important instead.
[06:16] (Astrodog) KoB: We just need sharper knives.
[06:16] (Aufklaren) How about Paris Hilton?
[06:16] (emil^^) call it what you want - but i think americans deserve the right to chooose their faith - weather i agree or not
[06:17] (hooah505) but I am glad that America is a predominantly christian country
[06:17] (KoBushi) hooah505 since political thought is highly dependant on world-view... and religion is often a primary modifier of that
[06:17] (Aufklaren) Streeker: People wont round you up for being a Satanist and stick you in camps. They'll just treat you like a bit of an idiot.
[06:17] (Aufklaren) Which you are, if you're a Satanist.
[06:17] (Kalomine) he's glad it's predominantly christian? i wonder if that was sarcasm
[06:17] (Astrodog) Aufk: Us Atheists get treated pretty well.
[06:18] (emil^^) streeker - sadly yes..........this is the same reason i belive in free speech..........who knows before long being a chrisitian could be considered hate speach for all iknow
[06:18] (Streeker) astrodog, its hard to hold a political job being atheist
[06:18] (Aufklaren) Astrodog: Apparently atheists are one of the most hated groups in America. Behind Muslims, even.
[06:18] (Astrodog) emil: That's absurd.
[06:18] (Astrodog) Aufk: Eh. Anyone who hates atheists can go fuck themselves.
[06:19] (emil^^) astrodog - yet showing a nativty set is considfered offensive to so many.........that is sad yes
[06:19] (rondd) same for christians
[06:19] (Astrodog) emil: Showing the nativity is not considered offensive.
[06:19] (Streeker) i'm an atheist and I get 'I hope you find god' and 'well if he's so powerful, cant he find me? I hear god is pretty ellusive'
[06:19] (Astrodog) Attempting to get the city to provide the land to place it on, however, is.
[06:19] (Aufklaren) http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=1786422
[06:19] (emil^^) astrodog - depends onm which community in which you live - to many this is a slap in the face (i say dumb assess)
[06:19] (Aufklaren) Atheists: the least trusted group in America.
[06:20] (Aufklaren) Behind Muslims and gays.
[06:20] (KoBushi) I found Jesus! ... He was behind the couch THE WHOLE TIME!
[06:20] (Streeker) kobushi : ha
[06:20] (Aufklaren) KoBushi: I used to have a t-shirt that said "If I need to find Jesus, does that mean he's been hiding?"
[06:20] (Astrodog) Aufk: Awesome.
[06:20] (Astrodog) Aufk: That leads to an interesting idea.
[06:20] (Aufklaren) KoBushi: And another t-shirt that said "On the back there are two people fucking," then, on the back, a picture of Jesus doing finger guns and saying "Just kidding, believe in Jesus."
[06:21] (emil^^) i do believe that chrisitianity is under attack sadly
[06:21] (Astrodog) If I say I'm an atheist... am I lying, and really a Christian, or telling the truth?
[06:21] (Astrodog) :P
[06:21] (Aufklaren) Yeah, Christianity is under attack. :/
[06:21] (Astrodog) emil: You're right. It IS sad that you belive Christianity is under attack.
[06:21] (Aufklaren) Christianity is totally a minority group. Christians can't even get elected to public office any more.
[06:21] (Aufklaren) There are even times of the day on television where God is mentioned for five minutes.
[06:21] (Aufklaren) Scary, but true.
[06:22] (Aufklaren) Is not mentioned, I ought to say.
[06:22] (emil^^) astrodog - one thing after another - you cant even show a cross without being assulted for offending someone
[06:22] (Aufklaren) Christians offend me all the time.
[06:22] (Streeker) Aufklaren : back to your satanist thing and rounding up, if you were to become one, isnt it possible, youd be on some sort of FBI watch list and have your activities monitored?
[06:22] (Aufklaren) Well, they don't. But seeing as Christians and Muslims get so much cuddling when they get offended, I suppose I'd better claim to be offended because I might get something out of it
[06:23] (Aufklaren) Streeker: No.
[06:23] (Aufklaren) Streeker: The FBI doesn't care about losers believing in silly internet-age "religions."
[06:23] (Astrodog) emil: Oh?
[06:23] (Astrodog) Where is that?
[06:23] (Tailor) Aufklaren, where don't Christians get elected?
[06:23] (emil^^) i guess if i live in teh south christianity would get a bit more love
[06:23] (Astrodog) The only thing people have a problem with, is you trying to put Christian symbols, on things the government pays for.
[06:23] (rondd) geesh another day of christain VS Athiest
[06:23] (Aufklaren) Tailor: It was sarcasm. ;)
[06:23] * rondd ywans
[06:23] (Tailor) Oh.
[06:23] (Kalomine) don't be fooled......we live in a time where everything offends everyone
[06:23] (KoBushi) Aufklaren actually it's POSSIBLE... the FBI used to monitor the SCA in the US... a group of medieval reinactors
[06:24] (Aufklaren) Tailor: I was saying that Christians can't get elected. It was sarcasm to prove the point that Christians aren't persecuted.
[06:24] (DeDannan) Kalomine, that's offensive to me!
[06:24] (emil^^) astrodog - put a nativy scene on a gov't property - hello you're sued to hell and back
[06:24] (Astrodog) emil: Damn right.
[06:24] (KoBushi) emil^^ so put it on your own property
[06:25] (Astrodog) The government shouldn't be paying for the property you want to spread your faith from.
[06:25] (Aufklaren) emil^^: Well, it's pretty simple. It's that old separation of church and state, remember. I don't even know what the problem is - the separation is good for religion. Almost all the countries that traditionally didn't practice separation have since become secular.
[06:25] (Streeker) emil, theres a little piece of paper that says 'separation of church and state'
[06:25] (emil^^) i guess it doesnt' matter if 99% of the constitucency wants a cross or a nativity placed on the courtyard.............
[06:25] (Kalomine) segments of christians/jews/muslims/atheists/gays/republicans/democrats/lawyers/doctors/capitalists/communists/irish/italians/ethiopians are ALL offended by something or another and we have to hear about it.................CONSTANTLY
[06:25] (emil^^) just kinda dumb
[06:25] (Astrodog) Aufk: Hey! You guys still have a Defender of the Faith.
[06:25] (Aufklaren) emil^: You live in a constitutional republic, not a mobocracy.
[06:25] (Aufklaren) Astrodog: Exactly. And Britain is one of the most secular countries in the world.
[06:25] (emil^^) if 1 single person takes offense - 'run away run away!;
[06:25] (Aufklaren) Astrodog: Our head of state is head of the state church. Can't get less separated.
[06:26] (DeDannan) Kalomine, sure..it's a growth industry..lots of money to be made pandering to the easily offended
[06:26] (emil^^) just seems kind dumb that a single person out of thousands can bitch - and ruins it for all
[06:26] (Streeker) emil : check the the constitution and see where it fits in with your nativity scene
[06:26] (Astrodog) Aufk: If I ever become King of England... I'm totally getting busiess cards with "Defender of the Faith" on them, with the Atheist logo thing.
[06:26] (Streeker) hmm i didnt know atheists had a logo
[06:26] (emil^^) streeker - yeah - as long as 1 person disagrees and lodges a compliant - what a wonderful country
[06:26] (Kalomine) i'm seriously thinking about suing the RIAA for making music purchase the most complicated and hassle filled annoyance known to modern man
[06:26] (KoBushi) there is an athiest logo? lol
[06:26] (Aufklaren) Astrodog: You should dress up like a P.I. from a film noir movie with a bowler hat or whatever and go around defending the faith like a superhero.
[06:27] (Astrodog) KoB: Yeah. :P
[06:27] (Astrodog) Aufk: Hahahaha.
[06:27] (Aufklaren) Your business cards can have little guns firing crosses as a logo.
[06:27] (KoBushi) Astrodog that seems... odd
[06:27] (Astrodog) KoB: Its a few electron rings, with an A in the middle.
[06:27] (Streeker) emil - the constitution is 1 person? its a just a document this country was founded on, screw it, lets get the 10 commandments up, its just a piece of paper
[06:27] (Astrodog) KoB: You can get it on a VA tombstone.
[06:27] (Revanch) emil - who ruined what for all?
[06:27] (emil^^) streeker - doesn't matter
[06:28] (KoBushi) I guess in all I'm opposed to symbology
[06:28] (Aufklaren) emil^^: The Constitution doesn't matter?
[06:28] (Streeker) the consitution doesnt matter as long as you get your nativity scene?
[06:28] (Astrodog) emil: Even if NO ONE opposed putting a nativity scene up, on city property... you shouldn't do it.
[06:28] (emil^^) just the ract is - what the majority cares about is moot - insignificant, doen't matter
[06:28] (DeDannan) I figured the 'atheist logo' would be something like a circle or square..with nothing inside it
[06:28] (emil^^) fact**
[06:28] (KoBushi) embodying concepts into symbols cheapen them imo... it's like a lazy shortcut for not thinking :/
[06:28] (Aufklaren) emil^^: The majority can get what they want, as long as it's legal.
[06:29] (Astrodog) emil: It just doesn't override the constitution.
[06:29] (Astrodog) Hmm.
[06:29] (Streeker) dedanna, i was thinking a cross with christ being crucified with a round circle around it and a line thru the circle
[06:29] (Astrodog) Did anyone else get "(PickleWrk) HEIL HITLER!"?
[06:29] (Aufklaren) Astro: yes.
[06:29] (Revanch) emil - What are you talking about? We have a democracy based on majority rule. A majority of people apparently don't favor ending the long-standing separatio of Church and State. Your position is in the minority.
[06:29] (Aufklaren) I just ignored it.
[06:29] (Streeker) astrodog : yes
[06:30] (emil^^) astodog - yeah i just looked pasted it i'll ignore it now
[06:30] (compdoc) Viagra seems to be a cure for jet lag - at least in hamsters
[06:30] (Streeker) compdoc, the problem with that is is, now we have 50 hampsters
[06:30] (emil^^) revanch - i just think it kinda odd - that a nativity scene where is' been done years after years........is now all of a sudden illelgal cuz of a single person
[06:31] (Streeker) person? its the constitution
[06:31] (Streeker) blame the guys with the white wigs 200 years ago
[06:31] (emil^^) yes - i person who has a hair up thier ass can change everything
[06:31] (L0c0) +yeah, that stupid constitution
[06:31] (Revanch) emil 1. its not "illegal because of a single person", and 2. Just because something has been done a long long time doesn't mean its legal
[06:31] (L0c0) we should just get rid of it
[06:31] (L0c0) wahhh wah wahhh
[06:31] (Streeker) emil, tell them to go back to thier own country and leave you and your values of america alone
[06:31] (emil^^) yes - so tradition is meaningless
[06:32] (Revanch) emil - you're free to display a Nativity Scene on your private property or that of your church, business, whatever. Not on public property though.
[06:32] (L0c0) constitution is just like the bible to some folks... they only care to remember and support certain parts
[06:32] (emil^^) as long as someone is pissed - it takes only 1........
[06:32] (Streeker) emil : tradition is meaningless when its unconstitutional
[06:32] (Streeker) loco : ha
[06:32] (Astrodog) emil: It shouldn't take any.
[06:32] (L0c0) a lot of the same people that whine about seperation of church/state have an NRA sticker on their pickups
[06:32] (emil^^) yeah - i love how gov't takes away history
[06:33] (DeDannan) just out of curiosity..where in the constitution is religious expression prohibited in the public square?
[06:33] (Streeker) emil, you preach you love this country, but youre not aware of the United States constitution?
[06:33] (emil^^) this is why we need to ban christmas trees, reaths
[06:33] (Revanch) emil - On the subject of the Nativity....do you believe in the Virgin Birth story ?
[06:33] (Astrodog) DeD: The public square is fine. Displays on government property are not.
[06:33] (emil^^) just i guess i'm old school
[06:33] (Astrodog) emil: No one wants to ban those things, jackass.
[06:33] (L0c0) DeDannan: it's not... but if you wanna hold it inside of say...a federal building, then yes, thats' a no no
[06:33] (emil^^) i like my traditions
[06:34] (Revanch) DeDannan - its not, a person can express themselves in such a manner, but the government cannot be seen as establishing it
[06:34] (Streeker) loco, i would like to add that im not a fan of the right to bear arms part of the constitution, but i support it
[06:34] (roygerbil) but they do establish it, what with the ten commandments and prayer meetings on the rose garden
[06:34] (L0c0) DeDannan: sometimes I think the pro-seperation folks take things a bit too far, BUT... I do support the effort to keep the 2 apart
[06:34] (emil^^) streeker - wow i'm amazed :) one thing i can give you props for
[06:35] (DeDannan) Astrodog, ah...guess we'd better get rid of the House and Senate Chaplains then...
[06:35] (L0c0) last thing we want is a bunch of religious fanatics running the country, telling us how to live our lives
[06:35] (Revanch) roygerbil - There are anachronistic traditions like that that indeed do violate the constitution
[06:35] (L0c0) that's the sort of thing we say is "bad" about other countries
[06:35] (DeDannan) L0c0, as opposed to the irreligious fanatics?
[06:35] (emil^^) loco - no need to worry about that - you're damn near silenced them all so far
[06:35] (Streeker) loco, like needing a warrant for search and seizure, ala wiretapping??
[06:35] (L0c0) DeDannan: i'd rather have lawful fanatics
[06:35] (L0c0) :-)
[06:36] (Revanch) Silenced the religious fanatics?
[06:36] (Kalomine) SNAPSHOT Poll - America Sexually Repressed? Yes? No?
[06:36] (Revanch) since when
[06:36] (emil^^) i kinda like the religious right - but damn they do enough to shoot themselves in the foot
[06:36] (compdoc) theres not enough sex in america
[06:36] (L0c0) Streeker: no, like laws dictating who people can marry legally, or what type of sex they can have (though texas abolished its anti-sodomy law), etc
[06:36] (L0c0) that sort of things
[06:36] (compdoc) cept we seem to produce a lot of porn
[06:37] (Revanch) Emil - Yeah sad story about Ted Haggard, huh?
[06:37] (L0c0) there's nothing wrong with porn
[06:37] (emil^^) revanch - no clue who that is
[06:37] (L0c0) the only reason kids have access to porn is b/c of lazy parenting
[06:37] (L0c0) or VERY determined kids
[06:37] (L0c0) haha
[06:37] (emil^^) loco - agreed
[06:37] (L0c0) like take hillary the hun's pet cause... video games
[06:37] (Revanch) Emil - formerly one of the most powerful figures of the religious right, a now-disgraced ex-minister of a Colorado Mega-Church
[06:38] (L0c0) i mean they have ratings on them... then its up to the parents to say "ok, you're not old enough for this game"
[06:38] (emil^^) revanch - i follow the bible - not what xvxvxv tells me to
[06:38] (Revanch) Hillary is stupid for latching on to that issue.
[06:38] (KoBushi) L0c0 hell when I was a kid my dad gave me his playboys and penthouses 1 month delayed heh
[06:38] (L0c0) but no, lazy ass parents... y'know, if the game is called "Grand Theft Auto" it's probably not about flowers and candy
[06:38] (Revanch) emil - the Bible says that all humans originated from Adam and Eve do you believe that?
[06:39] (emil^^) example - i honestly think most christians really do belive euthanasia is a good thing - who wants to live as a vegetable
[06:39] (Streeker) loco, but what choice do the parents have? either be a good parent or have the kid whine and bug them into submission for a 50 dollar game
[06:39] (L0c0) Streeker: what choice? their choice is to stand up and be a g'damn parent
[06:39] (L0c0) who runs the house, kids or parents
[06:39] (emil^^) but then we have hard core politicans who care less about what thier constituency thinks
[06:39] (Streeker) loco, being sarcastic
[06:39] (patch6) teaching the kid the meaning of "no" can go a long way
[06:39] (L0c0) geez....those types need to grow a fucking backbone
[06:39] (L0c0) STreeker: sadly there's people that think like that
[06:39] (Streeker) loco, there are too many of those types
[06:40] (Kalomine) children having children........children who have not learned self discipline yet raising kids without discipline
[06:40] (L0c0) too many parents that don't know how to be parents... they try to be their kids' friends
[06:40] (Streeker) i still blame columbine for those parents
[06:40] (Revanch) L0c0 - I think it fits into my thesis about America - that the forces of capitalism and division of labor has reached an extreme, and now people expect OTHERS to do their thinking/parenting/teaching for them.
[06:40] (emil^^) so say you think to live as a vegetable is bad - you have the nuts who tell you you're going to hell
[06:40] (patch6) you blame columbine for those parents?
[06:40] (Streeker) patch, bad parenting
[06:40] (L0c0) you cannot be your child's friend. you can be friendly but not a friend. that's my belief
[06:40] (Kalomine) dern right loco
[06:41] (patch6) blame columbine on the parents? or for them
[06:41] (L0c0) Revanch: i agree
[06:41] (Kalomine) and yes I said dern
[06:41] (Revanch) emil - i'd agree, i'm sure the majority of self-identified Christians think keeping a person alive artificially is unnecessary and wrong.
[06:41] (Gosseyn) Why shouldn't we blame what Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris did, on their upbringing?
[06:41] (Streeker) patch, my kid will will be spanked to death before anything like that ever happened
[06:41] (L0c0) Revanch: perfect example, last semester we had a student beat up another kid. he stomped on his leg trying to break it. so he was arrested and charged with aggrevated assault
[06:41] (L0c0) Revanch: that was on a friday. the following Monday, the mom comes in and blames the school for not providing enough supervision
[06:42] (patch6) sounds like a horse before the cart line, blaming columbine for those parents
[06:42] (L0c0) i mean for fucks sake, if my kid did that, i'd go to the school to apologize for his behavior and to ensure them that he will be punished
[06:42] (emil^^) for most of us - we can only well - i dont wanna say laugh - but these 'poor right white kids' who had the world as thier oyster' and couldn't realize it
[06:42] (Streeker) patch, where do kids get guns?
[06:42] (patch6) I can understand blaming those parents for columbine
[06:42] (Kalomine) loco: klebold/harris' parents did that??????
[06:42] (Gosseyn) patch6: well, but for those parents having raised those two sociopaths badly, there might never have been, what, 14 senseless deaths in Columbine?
[06:42] (Streeker) where do they get the video games, movies
[06:42] (Revanch) L0c0 - yep. classic passing the buck. If the kid needs to be *supervised* to not assault others, well, that's called "prison"
[06:42] * r0ygerb1l is now known as roygerbil
[06:42] (L0c0) patch6: when they have time/money to prepare for that...
[06:42] (Streeker) how do kids know how to massacer people?
[06:42] (patch6) I'm just nitpicking, ignore me
[06:42] (emil^^) i blame these 2 dumb kids - they were so damn lucky - how couldn't they realize this
[06:43] (L0c0) Revanch: yup... but it gets worse
[06:43] (L0c0) Revanch: he went to juvi for a month then to the alternative school. one day he showed up at our school w/ a hammer b/c he wanted to "get the principal"
[06:43] (Gosseyn) You know what? I had a shitty father -- an abusive asshole who treated me like dirt no matter what I did to try to gain his approval. Did I end up going postal on my graduating class? NO.
[06:43] (emil^^) most of us would give anythying to have be brought up in a family with such wealth - they could have gone to any college they wanted - but life was so bad
[06:43] (Revanch) emil - many privileged kids, especially in the middle class, just DON'T know how well-off they are, they have no idea.
[06:43] (Gosseyn) L0c0: that boy needs a long stay in prison.
[06:44] (Kalomine) the horrible thing especially about kids is they don't necessarily have to have anything HORRIBLY wrong with them.......festering dissatisfaction/disconnect from right and wrong for a short time can lead to columbines.......perhaps a swift spanking or stern talking to or a baseball game with mom and dad could have stopped that....something to jolt them out of their fantasy
[06:44] (L0c0) Revanch: so he was arrested again. THEN, about a week ago, he doesn't show up for school, they find that he cut off his ankle monitor. so we went on partial-lockdown. still the school's fault?
[06:44] (Revanch) l0c0 - "alternative schools" are total bullshit, as far as i can tell. even referring to them as "schools" is a lie.
[06:44] (emil^^) revanch - guess it's 3easy for those of us who had to bust our ass.....to call them dumbasses...but well they were
[06:44] * Gosseyn notes that he was brought up poor -- his parents never earned more than $20k a year at their highest with both of 'em working. Did we want for the necessities? NO.
[06:44] (Astrodog) Gosseyn: How long ago?
[06:44] (L0c0) Revanch: hehe agreed. the kids don't really learn, they're passed.
[06:45] (Gosseyn) Astrodog: late 60s to mid 80s.
[06:45] (Astrodog) Gossen: 20k was a fairly good chunk of money for most of that.
[06:45] (Gosseyn) Astrodog: I've seen their old tax returns. Highest income, ever, was in 1978 with both of them working.
[06:45] (L0c0) Poor parenting, IMO, is a HUGE cause of the social problems here
[06:45] (Streeker) gosseyn, i'm guessing you werent spoiled into thinking 'the world owes you'
[06:45] (L0c0) and there are people that whine "well i'm a single mother"
[06:45] (Revanch) emil - of course they were. At the end of they day they still made numerous premeditated decisions to commit murder which cannot be blamed on their parents.
[06:45] (emil^^) shit i paid 100% of myself through college had no help from my parents (god bless them) if only i was so lucky
[06:46] (Astrodog) emil: Heh. I lived in a tent for a semester once, so I could pay for books. That was... interesting.
[06:46] (Gosseyn) Streeker: Um, no. I worked summers full-time and during the school year part-time for anything that I wanted. It was all *earned*.
[06:46] (emil^^) i just have to be a bit bitter about spoiled children
[06:46] (Streeker) gosseyn, youre a bit smarter than the rest then
[06:46] (L0c0) my sister's friend was a single mother who had her kid at 17 in HS, but she managed to get through college and raise a smart, respectful son. he graduated Top10 in his class last year and is going to college
[06:46] (emil^^) stupid ass kids think thye have it so bad
[06:46] (Streeker) emil, agreed
[06:46] (Revanch) L0c0 - I take a pretty radical position on this issue. I don't believe most people are cut out for parenting and that there should be more governmental oversight on it.
[06:46] (Gosseyn) Streeker: and I still managed to graduate in the top 10% of my class, and earn a National Merit Scholarship from Warner-Lambert. :)
[06:47] (Gosseyn) GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT? Fuck DAT shit.
[06:47] (L0c0) Revanch: sadly, having worked in schools for 4yrs now, I agree
[06:47] (CLU) Pft, scholarships.
[06:47] (emil^^) loco - now she puts me to shame
[06:47] (L0c0) er 5yrs
[06:47] (L0c0) haha
[06:47] (CLU) I'll take my GED, my 7 years to finish my communications degree with a 2.5 GPA, and go get the same sports commentary job as anyone who actually worked in school.
[06:47] (L0c0) emil^^: i didn't even mention that the father of the kid used to beat the mom, they were on welfare while she was in college
[06:47] (emil^^) i worked my way through community college........then i got loans for a private university and paid it all off in 8 years
[06:48] (CLU) I think I may be missing out. All this time spent slacking and I don't go to parties, drink, or smoke, or do drugs.
[06:48] (L0c0) emil^^: she's the type that welfare should be there for. didn't really have family. but she was working very hard to better her life
[06:48] (Kalomine) problem is you get those who are obstinately stupid.........who are setting their kids down a path that will make them marginal at best and criminal at worst.......what is to be done?
[06:48] (Revanch) L0c0 - Yeah. i didn't arrive at that conclussion lightly. It just seems like so many social ills are a direct result of people having kids that don't want, don't care for, and subject the rest of society to the products of their malparenting.
[06:48] (L0c0) and eventually she got off of welfare
[06:48] (emil^^) when i see dumb ass kids tho who get paid through college..and complain about it.............just wow
[06:48] (Kalomine) can't we go on television and have a group get together....a group "lets get it together" session?
[06:48] (CLU) And, paid? I'll owe at least $50,000 when I finally graudate. :)
[06:48] (Gosseyn) CLU: Heh. I manage 32 systems administrators and network engineers. (Right now, I'm logged in at work on my other PC, working out of my home office. Not much going on, so I'm farting around on IRC, heh.)
[06:48] (L0c0) Revanch: agreed.
[06:48] (L0c0) i blame dr. spock
[06:48] (L0c0) hehe
[06:48] (Streeker) emil : the problem is too many people think that they are owed a good life, everyone gets a just and fair life and everyone deserves a money back guaranty of a problem free life
[06:49] (Kalomine) CLU: what kind of sports commentating?
[06:49] (Revanch) l0c0 - I love the idea and the motivations behind "afterschool" programs, but they're not working. The kids who don't even go to school are the problem, so 'after-school' is pointless.
[06:49] (Gosseyn) CLU: regarding that scholarship? I withdrew from the university I'd attended in 1985-1986 at the end of the year, and joined the Army. Spent four years on active duty and THEN went back to university, paying my own way with my Army College Fund and modest amounts of loans.
[06:49] (CLU) Anything in Japan if I can get it, preferably MMA or pro wrestling.
[06:49] (emil^^) streeker - i was lucky i know i had a mom and a dad - who let me stay at home to save on room/board.........fuck i was lucky
[06:49] (CLU) Puetro Rico or Mexico as a next choice, and WWE as a backup plan.
[06:49] (Kalomine) I would say our rich society has done that........we live in a country with a lot of luxury....we often times have all the physical comforts that people had to strive for in the past....we have them now often times without working
[06:49] (CLU) And if none of those, I can sink down to football or baseball, heh.
[06:50] (gopp) I don't understand
[06:50] (gopp) why people dorm
[06:50] (gopp) when they leave 45 min from school
[06:50] (Streeker) gopp : to get away from home
[06:50] (L0c0) Revanch: it's like that for a lot of those types of programs. the kind of kids that participate are the kids you don't have to worry about
[06:50] (Gosseyn) and after working in the industry for almost a decade, went to grad school -- OSU's Fisher College of Business -- part-time while working full-time, eventually earning my MBA last spring.
[06:50] (emil^^) but damnit i paid 100% of my own 4 year degree......little rich bastards who think life is so tough - try working 40 hours a week while going to college
[06:50] (gopp) I can understand if you leave in another country and are international student
[06:50] (gopp) it stupid
[06:50] (gopp) to pay that much extra
[06:50] (CLU) If I can manage it, I'll be fluent in Japanese and Spanish and do three language broadcasts for pay-per-views for some company like PRIDE or K-1.
[06:50] (Revanch) L0c0 - I think there should be government and tax incentives to waiting to have kids, and especially til after you've reached certain thresholds and benchmarks.
[06:50] (Gosseyn) emil^^: did that from 1990-1993. Sucked ass, it truly did.
[06:50] (Streeker) hi pickle, back again about hitler?
[06:50] (CLU) I imagine that will pay well.
[06:50] (rondd) Tailor [08:53] *** PickleWrk (c06c7213@webchat.xs4all.nl) joined (-------
[06:50] (L0c0) Revanch: should be a fine for teen pregnancies :-P
[06:50] (gopp) Gosseyn what do you learn with a mba
[06:50] (DeDannan) Hitler was a poopy-head
[06:50] (emil^^) goss - 95-98
[06:51] (Revanch) L0c0 - Yep. What do you think is the pre-dominant profile (if on exists) of the kids that are the real problem?
[06:51] (emil^^) goss - you know man
[06:51] (gopp) oh this is not the real Pickle
[06:51] (emil^^) goss - i recall one semester when i could only sleep 4 hours a day 4 days a week
[06:51] (L0c0) Revanch: some will say that if that's the case, only rich people will be able to afford to have kids. but then again, if you're living in poverty, don't have a kid, let along 2, 3, 4 or more
[06:51] (gopp) I may want to get an mba but do you learn in an mba program
[06:51] (gopp) what type of research does one do with mba
[06:51] (gopp) wow
[06:51] (gopp) Sirius launching Grateful Dead channel
[06:51] (Gosseyn) gopp: well... Organizational Behavior, corporate finance, intermediate and advanced accounting (if you chose that concentration), business law...
[06:51] (L0c0) Revanch: most often, single parent homes
[06:51] (L0c0) i'd assume
[06:51] (CLU) gopp: It doesn't take 45 minutes to get anywhere in this city (45 minutes to the next large city, sure), I lived here 23 years (my whole life), and I still moved into the dorms.
[06:52] (CLU) 23 at the time, 28 now.
[06:52] (Gosseyn) gopp: an MBA doesn't require research. It's a professional degree.
[06:52] (CLU) Basically, my financial aid went up to match housing costs if I lived on campus, and it cost the same.
[06:52] (gopp) Gosseyn no master thieses
[06:52] (L0c0) Revanch: but even among rich kids that get into trouble, I'd assume it to be broken homes... parents divorced, etcc
[06:52] (CLU) Then there was the thing where I was academically dismissed...
[06:52] (Gosseyn) gopp: think of it as a slightly more difficult extension to a B.Sc. Business Administration.
[06:52] (gopp) Gosseyn oh
[06:52] (CLU) And the dorm plan didn't work out, it did not get me any dates with hot foreign girls.
[06:52] (gopp) Gosseyn I have a minor in magament
[06:52] (Revanch) L0c0 - Its a valid concern, but that's why I'd be sure to make it not economics-based, but experience and skills-based. Like, if you've finished high-school and then have a kid, you can get an tax credit
[06:53] (gopp) Gosseyn I have a minor in magament, that why I ask
[06:53] (OcDoc) the rich opressors keep the poor repressed to keep them available to do manual labor at low wages and unsafe working conditions ... everyone knows that
[06:53] (L0c0) FINALLY OcDoc gets it
[06:53] (L0c0) :-P
[06:53] (Gosseyn) gopp: Nope. Just a capstone (final) project. Mine was a full financial and functional analysis of MCI Telecommunications. :)
[06:53] (OcDoc) Loco: gets what?
[06:53] (L0c0) hey, my gas prices here wnt down... from $3.30 to $3.29!
[06:53] (Revanch) OcDoc - in large part that's true, though I doubt its in such a conscious manner.
[06:53] (L0c0) woohoo! happy days are here again!
[06:53] (Gosseyn) gopp: you're looking at 45-48 semester hours of concentrated business coursework to get that MBA.
[06:54] (L0c0) OcDoc: was being sarcastic
[06:54] (L0c0) joking
[06:54] (emil^^) i just get a bit bitter when people bitch about how hard school is............
[06:54] (CLU) I wonder what prices are today, I will probably run out of gas driving to the job I quit to get the last paycheck.
[06:54] (CLU) emil: Public school or college?
[06:54] (gopp) officaly from xm
[06:54] (Streeker) 3.03 in maine
[06:54] (gopp) As many of you know, XM customers have experienced service outages or significantly degraded service since Monday mid-morning, May 21.
[06:54] (gopp) http://www.xmradio.com/notices/signaldeg.xmc
[06:54] (Revanch) L0c0 - Do you know that we're on the verge of setting the all-time (inflation-adjusted) record for gasoline prices? Bush is going to oversee a gas situation worse than 76-80
[06:54] (L0c0) we're paying the highest prices in Texashere
[06:54] (L0c0) Texas here
[06:54] (emil^^) i slept 4 hours a day 4 days a week........split up into 2 hours at a time - that was me when going to community college clu
[06:54] (CLU) Public schools are laughable. College classes can actually be difficult if you don't set up your schedule well.
[06:55] (OcDoc) revanch: yes, I know so many smart capable poor people who could be CEOs of large corporations if only they were rich and from good families
[06:55] (L0c0) Revanch: i believe we tied it already ($3.13 adjusted price)
[06:55] (Gosseyn) Revanch: so? gasoline is still cheap by historical standards.
[06:55] (Gosseyn) OcDoc: Oh, that's a load of bollocks.
[06:55] (emil^^) clu - i was a security guard and did my homwork when i could
[06:55] (gopp) Gosseyn it still is
[06:55] (Gosseyn) emil^^: LOL. I did the same thing. :)
[06:55] (OcDoc) Gosseyn: you doubt it?
[06:55] (gopp) Revanch it still is
[06:55] (Streeker) gosseyn, and exxonmobile will go into bankruptcy this year
[06:55] (gopp) Revanch gas is cheaper
[06:55] (CLU) Goss: Yeah, pick a price point in history at least ten years ago and inflation adjust, we're still below it.
[06:55] (L0c0) cheaper than... um.. gold
[06:55] (gopp) Gosseyn are mba deparments more liberal or consertive
[06:55] (gopp) ????
[06:56] (L0c0) or an elephant
[06:56] (Gosseyn) CLU: I know. Already been there, done that.
[06:56] (CLU) Hmm, maybe not that short. 15 years.
[06:56] (Revanch) Gosseyn - no, its not. did you read what i said? We're nearly going to set the RECORD for price. that will beat the price spikes of the 70s and 80s
[06:56] (emil^^) gosseyn it was helll - saturday was my day off (i often worked sunday also)......but i slept the entire day
[06:56] (gopp) Gosseyn are mba deparments more liberal or consertive???
[06:56] (Astrodog) Rev: We've already beat those.
[06:56] (CLU) It got below a dollar rarely in 94-96.
[06:56] (Gosseyn) gopp: on the whole? conservative.
[06:56] (gopp) Gosseyn ahhh
[06:56] (gopp) make sense
[06:56] (Revanch) L0c0 - Its based on a national average.
[06:56] (Gosseyn) gopp: at least, Fisher was pretty conservative. They looooved Austrian school economics there. :)
[06:56] (gopp) Gosseyn sweet
[06:56] (emil^^) for my entire 2 years of community college i worked a min of 60 yours a week (i worked 12.5 hour shifts)
[06:56] (OcDoc) who is responsible for inflation?
[06:57] (starly) *!*c06c72*@* is banned (Requested by Tailor )
[06:57] (emil^^) 60 hours
[06:57] (Gosseyn) OcDoc: you can thank the Federal Reserve for a good portion of it. Expanding the money supply creates inflation above and beyond that created by normal market forces.
[06:57] (gopp) Teacher accused of repeated sex acts with student -- in classroom...
[06:57] (Revanch) OcDoc - That's kind of a pointless question, but the Government has the biggest ability to mitigate it.
[06:57] (emil^^) freakn' deal with it
[06:57] (OcDoc) Revanch: rofl
[06:58] (OcDoc) Revanch: oh, it's true that the truth hurts
[06:58] (emil^^) well - honestly i did that for only about a year and a half - i made enough
[06:58] (Gosseyn) the government can't "mitigate" inflation.
[06:58] * OcDoc loves to make them squirm
[06:58] (Astrodog) OcDoc: The people are.
[06:58] (Revanch) OcDoc what are you talking about?
[06:58] (OcDoc) Astrodog: can you give me an example?
[06:58] (Gosseyn) I see that revanch is subject to that fatal conceit -- that he believes that the world conforms to HIS wishes.
[06:58] (OcDoc) Astrodog: name a person you think caused inflation, please
[06:59] (emil^^) but what a lot of people dont know - is that if you bush you ass like this - major universities will help
[06:59] (Astrodog) A person?
[06:59] (Astrodog) No single person causes it.
[06:59] (Astrodog) Infact
[06:59] (Astrodog) A single person is unable to cause it.
[06:59] (Astrodog) Heh.
[06:59] (OcDoc) Astrodog: well, I assume if the people caused it, then you could name at least one of the people who caused it
[06:59] (Astrodog) OcDoc: Alright.
[06:59] (Astrodog) You are one of them.
[06:59] (Astrodog) So am I.
[06:59] (Astrodog) :P
[06:59] (emil^^) after 2 years i made it to millkin univerity (one of the top uni's for liberal arts)
[06:59] (OcDoc) Astrodog: and in what way did I cause inflation?
[07:00] (Astrodog) OcDoc: You bought things.
[07:00] (Gosseyn) OcDoc: did you demand a raise from your employer? :)
[07:00] (Revanch) Gosseyn - In fact i do not. You made a claim that gas is historically cheap right now when in fact its near its all time inflation-adjusted HIGH. And yet you claim I only believe what i want to. Please reconcile your disconnect from reality.
[07:00] (OcDoc) Astrodog: I see ... so buying things causes inflation
[07:00] (Astrodog) OcDoc: Among other things, sure.
[07:00] (Gosseyn) Revanch: *yawn*
[07:00] (OcDoc) Gosseyn: no, I haven't had a raise in over six years ... and I'll get less this year than last
[07:00] (Astrodog) Any economic activity causes inflation, and inflation is a good thing, imo.
[07:00] (emil^^) i managed to only be in debt 12k......for a uni that costs 25K anually
[07:00] (Gosseyn) Revanch: bloviate elsewhere.
[07:01] (OcDoc) Astrodog: I don't get it ... how does buying things cause inflation? what did I inflate?
[07:01] (Revanch) Gosseyn - Backing down then? You made a claim that was entirely wrong, but you won't retract it? That's pretty sad.
[07:01] (Astrodog) OcDoc: By buying something you created demand.
[07:01] (Gosseyn) all right, econ experts -- what's the best hedge against inflation?
[07:01] (Gosseyn) Revanch: you're the one making the positive claim. Prove it.
[07:01] (emil^^) raise taxes?? lol
[07:01] (Astrodog) Goss: Kitten Farming.
[07:01] (Gosseyn) Astrodog: No. Fixed-rate debt.
[07:01] (Astrodog) Lies.
[07:01] (Streeker) gosseyn, feds have been limiting interest rates
[07:01] (OcDoc) Astrodog: how did creating demand cause inflation?
[07:02] (Astrodog) OcDoc: It raised the acceptable price, for the product.
[07:02] (OcDoc) Astrodog: what is an "acceptable price?"
[07:02] (emil^^) well it's been fun - astrodog you've been fun and i like you
[07:02] (gopp) Astrodog NEW YORK (AP) -- With XM Satellite Radio service outages entering a second day Tuesday, subscribers from around the country posted increasingly frustrated messages on user Web sites and analysts started raising the prospect of potential cancellations.
[07:02] (emil^^) gotta go - props to G also
[07:02] (gopp) Astrodog are you a bussiness or ecomonics major
[07:02] (Astrodog) emil: You seem pleasant.. but you're frustrating.
[07:02] (Astrodog) :P
[07:02] (gopp) Astrodog is a cs major
[07:02] (gopp) not bussiness
[07:02] (gopp) or mangament
[07:02] (L0c0) Gopp: the ones that carry opie and anthony have seen big cancellations over that mess
[07:02] (Streeker) gopp, arent people cancelling like crazy over opie and anthony?
[07:03] (Gosseyn) against a falling dollar and rising interest rates, fixed-rate debt is an excellent hedge. You service your debt with a constant number of ever-less-valuable dollars. Great for you, not so great for the lender. :)
[07:03] (DeDannan) gopp is a speling majer
[07:03] (gopp) L0c0 oh
[07:03] (gopp) Streeker this is saying over the outage
[07:03] (L0c0) Gopp: their argument is that they sell themselves as "uncensored" radio...then censor that show
[07:03] (gopp) major
[07:03] (L0c0) may not agree w/ what they said
[07:03] (gopp) L0c0 oh
[07:03] (OcDoc) Astrodog: what is an "acceptable price?"
[07:03] (Astrodog) OcDoc: The price the market is willing to pay.
[07:03] (gopp) XM on Monday said some customers had their service disrupted due to software problems, beginning around noon Eastern Time. The company did not say how many of its 8 million subscribers were affected, but said it expected the problem to be fixed by Monday evening
[07:03] (gopp) Astrodog: what is an "acceptable price?"
[07:03] (OcDoc) Astrodog: who is the market?
[07:04] (gopp) Astrodog fix thier software will you
[07:04] (Astrodog) OcDoc: Anyone who buys, or sells things.
[07:04] (L0c0) gas $0.12/gal in Venezuela
[07:04] (gopp) Astrodog your a cs major, go fix xm software
[07:04] (Revanch) Gosseyn - As tracked by AAA, gasoline was $1.35/gallon in 1981. Adjusted for inflation, that's $3.13 in today's dollars. The country is now sitting at somewhere around $3.10/gallon, and very likely to breach the record.
[07:04] * CLU searches a bit for prices and an inflation calculator.
[07:04] (L0c0) damn socialists
[07:04] (OcDoc) Astrodog: do you get the impression that I think your definitions are circular and therefore invalid?
[07:04] (Astrodog) gopp: If XM pays me.
[07:04] (gopp) Astrodog sure go email them
[07:04] (CLU) 1980, $2.80. Adjusted to today, $7.02. No, we are not nearing inflation adjusted records.
[07:04] (Astrodog) OcDoc: C'mon, you asked me to define "The people".
[07:04] (Astrodog) :P
[07:04] (OcDoc) Astrodog: you keep defining things in terms of other undefined concepts
[07:04] (Astrodog) Do I need to define "is" next?
[07:04] (Streeker) astrodog, acceptable? i dont have a choice, i need gas to drive around, busses dont go where i go
[07:05] (Astrodog) The People. As in, everyone.
[07:05] (gopp) But, a string of postings early Tuesday on XMFan.com, an independent Web site, indicated the outages were still widespread. While many comments suggested users were surprised by the reception problems, a few showed increasing frustration that they could not get a signal.
[07:05] (OcDoc) Astrodog: no, I asked you to explain how the people cause inflation
[07:05] (CLU) Oh, sorry, that's a 1981 price. $6.37 then.
[07:05] (OcDoc) Astrodog: the point is that the generally acceptable prices of things cannot rise across the board just because people want them
[07:05] (Revanch) CLU - $2.80 is not a national average for that time period, that's teh key.
[07:05] (Gosseyn) Revanch: poor comparison. You cherry-picked your data to use the highest gas price post-embargo, right at the height of the stagflation that was killing our economy back then. Nice try, but no dice.
[07:05] (L0c0) CLU: the high in 1981 was $1.35. adjuste for inflation, that's $3.13
[07:05] (Kalomine) I can't imagine gas @ 2.80 in 1981 dollars
[07:05] (Astrodog) OcDoc: Sure they can.
[07:05] (OcDoc) Astrodog: if a person with only so much money buys product A, he cannot afford to buy product B
[07:06] (OcDoc) Astrodog: no they can't
[07:06] (Astrodog) OcDoc: He best make more money, then.
[07:06] (CLU) Doh, I'm reading an adjusted chart.
[07:06] (L0c0) i'm gonig by what Foxnews sid
[07:06] (Astrodog) CLU: Heh. I've made that kinda mistake before.
[07:06] (OcDoc) if prices are rising generally it can only be because people generally have more money to spend
[07:06] (L0c0) but I guess it's likely that foxnews is wrong
[07:06] (Gosseyn) compare gas prices in, say, 1968 to gas prices today, adjusted for inflation. Don't bullshit us with cherry-picked prices.
[07:06] (Astrodog) L0c0: Nah. CLU accidentally applied the inflation twice.
[07:06] (Revanch) Gosseyn - Cherry-picked my data? Why would I pick it when its HIGH if i were trying to show that today's gasoline is nearly as high? Why are you so full of bullshit responses?
[07:06] (Kalomine) ocdoc: people buy with credit and this country is at a crisis credit debt level
[07:07] (OcDoc) so prices of gasoline have more than doubled in 25 years ... rofl
[07:07] (CLU) http://zfacts.com/p/35.html
[07:07] (CLU) That's what I was looking over.
[07:07] (Gosseyn) Revanch: I note with no small amount of amusement that gasoline prices were BELOW the 1981 prices for a good portion of the later 80s and into 1990 and 1991.
[07:07] (CLU) I like the ticker for current prices by state, except where my state went up a nickel in the last few days.
[07:07] (Streeker) kalomine - credit is not money, its sort of like play money, thats why we have a crisis!
[07:07] (Gosseyn) Revanch: so, please, stop bullshitting us. You can't bullshit a champion bullshitter.
[07:07] (Kalomine) streeker: yep
[07:07] (OcDoc) Kalomine: now you're talking ... but "the people" don't cause inflation ... the increase in the availability of money to spend causes inflation, and then only if products are increased to less than match demand
[07:07] (Revanch) Gosseyn - we're talking about NOW, not 5, 10 years ago. What you're talking about is irrelevant.
[07:08] (Gosseyn) Revanch: ah, but your cherry-picked 1981 price, that's relevant. Pffft. Bollocks.
[07:08] (Revanch) How does gas costing 1.20 in 1994 make my statement that inflation-adjusted prices are about to set a record, surpassing 1981 any less true ?
[07:09] (Gosseyn) Revanch: why don't you show us a comparison that isn't skewed by distortions in the market (like the stagflation of 1979-1981), hmm?
[07:09] (OcDoc) if productivity goes down then inflation occurs also
[07:09] (DeDannan) both my vehicles get close to 30mpg...gas prices are bothersome, but not overly so
[07:09] (OcDoc) wages tend to be sticky upwards
[07:09] (Revanch) gosseyn - why the HELL would a cherry-pick a HIGH PRICE if i wanted to show how high today's prices are? Are you retarded?
[07:09] (L0c0) lol
[07:09] (L0c0) CLU:
[07:09] (Kalomine) when I began driving in 91....prices were in the mid .80s.....one gas war weekend saw it go to .69 and a .79 every once in a great while....but it stayed in upper 80s to 90s for all of my college years through 97
[07:09] (L0c0) CLU: note the part at the top that says "Regular Gasoline Price In Today's Dollars"
[07:09] (L0c0) CLU: so that's $2.80 in TODAY'S dollars...
[07:09] (Gosseyn) Revanch: Please, do insult me again. I'm hoping that freetrad3 shows up and busts your ass for abusive behavior.
[07:10] (L0c0) i wouldn't mind paying $2.80
[07:10] (gopp) Astrodog Sirius launching Grateful Dead channel
[07:10] (Kalomine) gopp: does it come with patchouli and VW van?
[07:11] (DeDannan) seems i recall paying .60-65/gal when I first started driving..1975
[07:11] (Revanch) Gosseyn - hhaha. Yeah i guess you'd have to hope that since you completely failed in debating this issue.
[07:11] (Revanch) L0c0 - good eye.
[07:11] * Gosseyn notes that his wife's Prius gets 43-48mpg, and his C320 gets close to 30mpg. Does he care about gas prices? Nope.
[07:11] (L0c0) i like when people say "Well in the UK they pay $7/GAL!"
[07:11] (CLU) (CLU) Doh, I'm reading an adjusted chart.
[07:11] (CLU) Thanks, but it's already "noted".
[07:11] (OcDoc) I believe the petrochemical companies were, and perhaps still are, supported subtly by government programs to keep prices artificially low
[07:11] (L0c0) but they don't mention that over $4 of that is taxes
[07:12] (OcDoc) something about the defense reserve somehow, mayber
[07:12] (Revanch) L0c0 - a lot of revisionists like to make it seem like gasoline was ASTRONOMICAL during the crises of the 70s and early 80s, to make today's prices seem tame by comparison, but when looking at the actual stats and data, that doesn't hold up.
[07:12] (Kalomine) i found out that crazy gas shortages weren't in the entire country...I asked people round here who never waited in gas lines or the every other day thing
[07:12] (td) I dont know why we dont get cheap gas like in Venezuela, Chavez keeps it to 12 CENTS a gallon
[07:12] (gopp) Revanch that bullshit
[07:12] (td) What does Chavez do to give his people such a gift
[07:13] (gopp) td chavez is a dicator
[07:13] (OcDoc) Loco: in Washington State we have some of the highest gasoline taxes in the nation, and the governor is all upset about how we're paying higher prices than the rest of the nation ... she wants an investigation ... demogoguery
[07:13] (gopp) td who dislike censorship
[07:13] (L0c0) Revanch: that and what people paid in 1981 means jack to me today b/c I live NOW not then :-P I don't feel better about paying $3/gal knowing "well, if this was 1981, $3 would be cheap"
[07:13] (gopp) td and keep his people down
[07:13] (L0c0) haha
[07:13] (gopp) td idiot
[07:13] (Gosseyn) L0c0: what slays me is how leftist assholes claim that the oil megacorps are making huge profits, when the reality is that they make 9-10c per gallon in profit, while the government tacks on upwards of 30c to 52c a gallon in taxes. Want to lower gas prices? Get the feds and the states to repeal their excise taxes.
[07:13] (gopp) Revanch your so so so wrong
[07:13] (Revanch) Gosseyn - Not caring about gas prices doesn't make your false claims any less wrong. You just look WRONG and smug. pretty bad combination.
[07:13] (CLU) Actually, one chart I wouldn't mind seeing is the price of gasoline in real dollars as a percentage of the current federal minimum wage.
[07:13] (gopp) Revanch you spewing the liberal media shit
[07:13] (gopp) Revanch stop spewing the liberal bs
[07:13] (Gosseyn) Revanch: You're on ignore, jackass.
[07:13] (td) gopp: Why can't Bush keep gas at 12 cents a gallon
[07:13] (gopp) Revanch again
[07:13] (Revanch) L0c0 - great point
[07:13] (gopp) td becuase bush don't steal oil
[07:13] (L0c0) OcDoc: here in Texas they're considering suspending the state's gas tax ($0.20) for the summer months (June-August)
[07:14] (gopp) td chavez does
[07:14] (gopp) td chavez stoled oil fields in venezula
[07:14] (gopp) he didn't pay market value
[07:14] (gopp) he stoled them
[07:14] (Revanch) CLU - that's an intersting thought. I think we could rough out a ratio from disparate data.
[07:14] (L0c0) OcDoc: that'd be a nice bit of relief, but w/ prices locally hitting $3.30, it'd still hurt to pump
[07:14] (gopp) he gave them some few dollars
[07:14] (gopp) td and he can't be doing that for long time
[07:14] (Gosseyn) gopp: no, he didn't steal them, he "nationalized" them. That's government-speak for "stole". :)
[07:14] * CryHavoc sends Revanch a CLU
[07:14] (gopp) Gosseyn yes by stealing
[07:14] (gopp) Gosseyn same shit
[07:14] (gopp) Gosseyn he didn't may them real market value
[07:15] (CryHavoc) sorry CLU ; )
[07:15] (L0c0) maybe Bush should steal the oil fields here
[07:15] (L0c0) and lower prices
[07:15] (gopp) he paid just enough
[07:15] (L0c0) for the american people
[07:15] (gopp) and took it from them
[07:15] (gopp) court order
[07:15] (Gosseyn) Ahh, I no longer hear that pesky mosquito buzzing in my ear. Tell me when Revanch leaves. :)
[07:15] (gopp) but it stealing
[07:15] (CLU) Pft, that's so old.
[07:15] (L0c0) STOLED
[07:15] (L0c0) haha
[07:15] (gopp) stealing
[07:15] (gopp) is what dicators do Gosseyn
[07:15] (CryHavoc) CLU....but it works....
[07:15] * L0c0 hands Gopp a dictionary
[07:15] (gopp) stealing
[07:15] (Astrodog) Rev: There isn't a corrolation.
[07:15] (CLU) That's like my last name... Danielson. Everyone to this day who makes the Karate Kid reference thinks they're the first.
[07:15] (gopp) he steal from the rich to give to the poor
[07:15] (Gosseyn) gopp: But... but... Chavez is the democratically-elected DICTATOR of Venezuela! :)
[07:16] (DeDannan) damn that Chavez! how dare he do exactly what so many of the oil producing countries in the Gulf did 40+ years ago!
[07:16] (gopp) Gosseyn yes he got elected by using the forces of the the army
[07:16] (CryHavoc) I never thought of that oen
[07:16] (td) I'd live under Chavez's rule for 12 cent gas
[07:16] (CryHavoc) but many in here are without a Clue
[07:16] (CLU) Fortunately, that movie is so old now that no one thinks of it.
[07:16] (gopp) did you know Gosseyn the army was forcing votting station to allow people to vote
[07:16] (Revanch) So now that L0c0's demolished the assinine notion that gasoline was like $7 in inflation-adjusted dollars, we can focus on WHY gas is as high as it is right now, and what can be done about it.
[07:16] (gopp) td so move
[07:16] (gopp) td move to venezula
[07:16] (td) I may just do that
[07:16] (gopp) what are you wattingi for
[07:16] (Revanch) td - hehe.
[07:16] (gopp) pack your bags
[07:16] (CryHavoc) Gas is not as porportionately high now as it was before
[07:16] (gopp) CryHavoc nope correct
[07:16] (Revanch) DeDannan - excellent point. ARAMCO, anyone?
[07:17] (gopp) td move to venezula see how great it is
[07:17] (CryHavoc) Gas outlays for a family = 7% of budget...nopt 15-18%
[07:17] (L0c0) Revanch: lack of capasity. no new refineries...partly due to environmentalists' efforts, partly b/c oil companies shut them down themselves
[07:17] (gopp) when thier not even
[07:17] (CLU) What can be done about it?
[07:17] (gopp) freedom of speech
[07:17] (gopp) lack of food know
[07:17] (gopp) thier lack of food in many supermarkets after laws chavez had thier congress pass
[07:17] (gopp) to fix price of goods
[07:17] (Revanch) CLU - in the short-term, not much that isn't kinda painful. in the long term, a lot.
[07:17] (CLU) Drill in Alaska, and a handful of super powers ally and take over the oil countries.
[07:17] (CryHavoc) gopp you betcha...
[07:17] (gopp) supermarkets are not making profits
[07:17] * PickleWrk is now known as PickleWk
[07:17] (Revanch) CLU - drilling in alaska will WORSEN the problem
[07:18] (gopp) CryHavoc it fact, I read more then one article on the lack of basic food in supermarkets know
[07:18] (PickleWk) I suggest anyone who put "PickleWrk" on ignore, to take it off.
[07:18] (CryHavoc) Revanch no it will not
[07:18] (gopp) becuase they can't make profit
[07:18] (gopp) to pay bills
[07:18] (gopp) and buy more goods
[07:18] (Gosseyn) I note with no small amount of amusement that whining pussies complain about how gasoline prices are breaking their backs. Excuse me? Even filling up my car every 10 days and my wife's car every 2+ weeks, we still don't spend more than $200 a month on gasoline. And that's for a LOT of driving, believe me.
[07:18] (CryHavoc) gopp yer preaching to the Choir....
[07:18] (CryHavoc) price caps produce scarcity
[07:18] (L0c0) Revanch: like this thing about drilling in Alaska...even if they could, how does that help us? they can only refine X amount. they could have more oil stockpiles, but seems w/ the same number of refineries running, they won't turn out any more gas than before
[07:18] (Gosseyn) CryHavoc: no shit, dude. it's the supply and demand curves in action.
[07:19] (gopp) CryHavoc but chavez don't understand that
[07:19] (gopp) CryHavoc oh
[07:19] (gopp) not td
[07:19] (CryHavoc) of course not...he is only interested in holding power
[07:19] (Revanch) CryHavoc - yes it will, because 1. its a decade away from coming to market, at least, and 2. it deepens our commitement on a form of fuel system reliant on liquid combustables, when we a.) don't have that much of our own, b) hostile states do, and c) we could be establishing a new system not based on liquid fuel.
[07:19] (gopp) he said he would love to move to venezula
[07:19] (Kalomine) Goss: many people don't make the money you do
[07:19] (gopp) Kalomine many people are lazy
[07:19] (gopp) :)
[07:19] (Kalomine) gopp: many people are not
[07:19] (gopp) including me
[07:20] (CryHavoc) Revanch...no it will not...because both options can be pursued at the same time
[07:20] (CLU) Revanch: I'm patiently awaiting the electric motor in the wheels from that Dutch company.
[07:20] (Gosseyn) L0c0: you can thank the enviroweenies and their tame bureaucrats in the EPA for making it nigh-upon-impossible to get approval for new or even reconditioned/renovated refineries.
[07:20] (gopp) Kalomine oh yea, how many grudate from a master program in an mba or such
[07:20] (CryHavoc) Revanch ...in CrackAss Venezuela they think like you do
[07:20] (Astrodog) Pickle: Unless they don't want to listen to you? ;)
[07:20] (Revanch) I'm guessing that Gosseyn is US-Male....same penchant for wrongness, same petty insults. Hilarious how a person is so recognizable by their faults.
[07:20] (gopp) Revanch yepe just like you
[07:20] (Kalomine) gopp: how many people do necessary jobs that don't pay that much?
[07:20] (gopp) Revanch chavez uses about the same logic
[07:20] (CLU) Forget the gas engine as a generator, too... plug it into an outlet connected to a nuclear plant and use a giant lithium battery the size of a gas tank in a car.
[07:21] (gopp) Kalomine oh I see
[07:21] (JanetB) if we stoped the stupid mixing of gas... built refineries, and drilled in this country gad would go way down
[07:21] (Gosseyn) Kalomine: people wouldn't have reason to complain if they didn't drive such gas-guzzling pieces of crap as they do.
[07:21] (L0c0) Gosseyn: in the 90s, several oil companies shut down their refineries on their own.
[07:21] (gopp) gad ????
[07:21] (Astrodog) Janet: No it wouldn't.
[07:21] (L0c0) Gosseyn: recall how low gas was then...
[07:21] (L0c0) shit
[07:21] (gopp) you mean gas
[07:21] (CryHavoc) JanetB's car runs on flowers
[07:21] (JanetB) Astrodog, yes it would
[07:21] (L0c0) in the early 90s, gas here got as low as $0.89/gal
[07:21] (Gosseyn) L0c0: I know. 1998, 77c a gallon. Damn.
[07:21] (Revanch) CLU - i agree.
[07:21] (Kalomine) Goss: that's part of it yes
[07:21] (CryHavoc) yep
[07:21] (L0c0) you know what's extremely stupid
[07:21] (Kalomine) Why do american auto manufacturers suck.........so entirely bad?
[07:21] (CryHavoc) Opec could not cut a deal
[07:22] (Astrodog) Janet: The price of crude oil is what it is. And its the main cost in producing gasoline.
[07:22] (L0c0) is that we're paying the highest prices in Texas here.
[07:22] (L0c0) yet
[07:22] (L0c0) there's a refinery in town
[07:22] (CLU) I played the Car Wars pen and paper RPG since I was 6 or so, I've been dreaming of an all electric car like that since then. :)
[07:22] (Gosseyn) the Saudis flooded the market with cheap oil to put the synfuels businesses out of commission.
[07:22] (CryHavoc) Kalo...they have no real competition close at hand
[07:22] (L0c0) but the fuel they produce doesn't stay here... it goes to mexico
[07:22] (CLU) I don't think we're quite nearing mounting guns on our cars, unfortunately.
[07:22] (Revanch) CryHavoc - why pursue an option which WORKS against us and works against the alternative path?
[07:22] (gopp) Astrodog it the mixing of gas, and it the tax goverment adds to gas
[07:22] (gopp) that make the cost high Astrodog
[07:22] (JanetB) gopp, with you spelling and sentence structure, don't you dare harp on me over a typo
[07:22] (Kalomine) cry: japanese auto manufacturers are kicking their ass openly
[07:22] (Astrodog) Janet: I was about to say the same thing to gopp.
[07:22] (Astrodog) :P
[07:22] (CryHavoc) Revanch becaise the world currently runs on Oil...
[07:22] (Gosseyn) CLU: all I ask for is an armored car, and some fire-and-forget rockets with which to light its way. :)
[07:23] (gr0mit) Kalomine: their goal was maximizing profit, when it should have been sustainability
[07:23] (gopp) JanetB I am sorry
[07:23] (gopp) JanetB won't happen
[07:23] (CLU) Gas prices don't kill me like most people I know, anyway, I drive an Aveo.
[07:23] (TWThomas) I literally gave the Ron Paul Campaign a punch in it's stomach
[07:23] (CLU) It's rated 26/32...
[07:23] (gopp) JanetB will you forgive me
[07:23] (Astrodog) gopp: How much of the cost of gas, do you think, is driven by the mixing and such?
[07:23] (CryHavoc) JanetB tpyo? where? :L)
[07:23] (Revanch) CryHavoc - yes, that's part of the problem, that's why we're DEPENDENT upon foreign oil. The paltry amount from Alaska won't change that, and will only lengthen our future dependency. We need to WEAN ourselves off it, not develop a new way to extend our addiction.
[07:23] (JanetB) Astrodog... the main cost, is blending gas, and the inability for refine it, and no drilling here, having to pay for gas at market prices
[07:23] (Kalomine) gromit: yes I know, but I don't know understand why they can't change mid stream? they take frickin forever to put new designs in, they pump designs with v8 engines that don't need them
[07:23] (Gosseyn) CLU: but... it's an AVEO. I mean... you could've at least bought a Fit, y'know?
[07:24] (CLU) (It actually gets 22/40, I have race driving technique kinda drilled into my brain.)
[07:24] (CryHavoc) heheh Janet uses gad in her car :)
[07:24] (Astrodog) No, Janet, that's not the main cost.
[07:24] (CLU) Nah, it was the cheapest thing at the time.
[07:24] (JanetB) hhheehe Astrodog
[07:24] (Streeker) CLU, try drafting, that will save gass!
[07:24] (gopp) JanetB I was joking
[07:24] (Gosseyn) CLU: oh, you got the $9995 VL model?
[07:24] (JanetB) oh and our taxes
[07:24] (Astrodog) Janet: The raw materials cost significantly more than anything else that impacts the price.
[07:24] (CLU) My mom is making the payments until I graduate, and she bought it for me when I was academically dismissed. :)
[07:24] (CryHavoc) Revanch...we need to do both....
[07:24] (CLU) She also paid the deposit and two months rent on an apartment since I had to move out of the dorms.
[07:24] (Revanch) JanetB - Do you realize that the US will never ever produce as much crude oil as it once did? And, realizing that fact, do you understand that demand increases? What is there to reconcile the difference, do you think?
[07:25] (gopp) dam your lucky CLU
[07:25] (CLU) (My grandfather had recently died and she still had a ton of inheritance money.)
[07:25] (gopp) you have a nice mom
[07:25] (Kalomine) what is this fuel injected diesel engine they use in europe that gets 50+ mpg
[07:25] (Gosseyn) CLU: LOL. Could be worse. My first new car was a Dodge Colt GT. Had to buy it myself, though.
[07:25] (CLU) Since then she got rid of her Mustang and also got an Aveo to save money.
[07:25] (Gosseyn) Kalomine: direct-injected diesel.
[07:25] (Astrodog) Janet: Converting gasoline to oil, gets you ~22 gallons of gas, per barrel of oil.
[07:25] (Revanch) CryHavoc - Drilling in ANWR is not worth it, not by a longshot.
[07:25] (DeDannan) well over half the cost of a gallon of gas comes from crude oil...
[07:25] (gr0mit) Kalomine: thats true. must just be bad upper management and comoany organization
[07:25] (JanetB) Revanch... this country can produce oil, and more than it did, get rid of the EPA
[07:25] (Kalomine) yeah........are americans legally bound not to use direct injected diesel?
[07:26] (Streeker) i heard the diesels werent umm.. emmissions friendly, some rating they have
[07:26] (Revanch) JanetB - no, it can't. its a Geologic fact, it has nothing to do with politics or environmentalism.
[07:26] (Astrodog) Janet: The problem is that any oil that's produced simply counts against global demand.
[07:26] (Revanch) JanetB - The United states has long passed its peak oil production.
[07:26] (gr0mit) diesel emmissions are so much of a problem now
[07:26] (Gosseyn) Kalomine: Mercedes uses it in their BLUETEC sedans and wagons.
[07:26] (gr0mit) arent*
[07:27] (Gosseyn) gr0mit: true. direct injected diesels are clean enough to pass the EURO 2006 emissions standards.
[07:27] (DeDannan) and to my knowledge..gasoline can't economically be produced from just any kind of crude
[07:27] (Astrodog) Janet: At 22 gallons of gas, per barrel of oil, it costs nearly $2.90, to make gasoline from open market purchased crude.
[07:27] (DeDannan) sure you can make gas from tar sands...@ $9-10/gallon
[07:27] (Astrodog) Generally, there are long term contracts in place, that put the price of the crude oil closer to ~40-50 a barrel.
[07:28] (Revanch) DeDannan - well the profitability levels differ between sweet/sour and light/heavy crude. sweet and light being easiest/most-profitable.
[07:28] (Gosseyn) Astrodog: yes, they're called "futures contracts".
[07:28] (JanetB) yes, drilling here, would not cost as much :)
[07:28] (JanetB) since that would not be on the open market
[07:28] (DeDannan) lol
[07:28] (Astrodog) At $50/barrel, the raw material cost of gasoline is 2.24.
[07:28] (JanetB) and again remove the taxes on gas
[07:28] (Astrodog) Janet: It STILL goes into the market.
[07:28] (JanetB) that will drop it .50 a gallon
[07:28] (Astrodog) Even if we don't sell it there. It reduces our demand.
[07:29] (JanetB) Astrodog.. why would it go into the market?
[07:29] (DeDannan) Astrodog, you're beating your head against a brick wall :)
[07:29] (Astrodog) Janet: First, because oil companies can get more money that way.
[07:29] (Gosseyn) last I checked, though, you can refine quite a bit more diesel fuel from a barrel of crude, and it requires less actual refining than does gasoline.
[07:29] (Revanch) Astrodog - those futures are speculative though. The Economist famously speculated that oil would be around 30-40/ bbl at this time, if not less.
[07:29] (gr0mit) also consider the efficiency in drilling the oil
[07:29] (JanetB) Astrodog.... ok.. then let someone besides an oil company drill it
[07:29] (DeDannan) let wal-mart drill!
[07:30] (Astrodog) Janet: Why would ANYONE sell their product for cheaper than they have to?
[07:30] (Gosseyn) Astrodog: that "raw material cost" doesn't include the amortization costs of the refinery, or the cost of labor to operate the refinery.
[07:30] (bud`) Texas Tea!
[07:30] * bud` drills
[07:30] (Astrodog) Gossen: Well aware.
[07:30] (gr0mit) you get about 4 gallons oil for every 1 gallon you put in in canada, its 1:16 in texas, and much higher in the middle east
[07:30] (Revanch) JanetB - the bottom line is that the US will NEVER be able to even produce HALF of what it consumes. Please understand this.
[07:32] (Gosseyn) Astrodog: because the almighty government *compels* them to do so, on pain of imprisonment, fines, or death?
[07:32] (gopp) Revanch yes we will
[07:32] (gopp) Revanch if we drill
[07:32] (gr0mit) 16:1 rather
[07:33] (Astrodog) Goss: Even that wouldn't work.
[07:33] (Gosseyn) Is Revanch still bloviating? I can't tell, I've got him/her/it/Regis on /ignore.
[07:33] (Astrodog) They'd just tell the government to fuck off, and leave. :P
[07:33] (gopp) Revanch that bs, many arguments are made that if we drill we do have enoughs upply
[07:33] (CLU) Ooh ooh, a Johnny Cochran!
[07:33] (CLU) If you drill, the oil will fill!
[07:33] (gopp) Revanch you just seem to not agree, but it is fact
[07:33] (bud`) irc is where you find the seasoned and knowledgable oil experts
[07:33] (Revanch) heh
[07:33] (Astrodog) gopp: It isn't a fact.
[07:33] (gopp) Astrodog in canada
[07:33] (JanetB) well according to many, there is more than enough oil in this country
[07:33] (gopp) thier a lot of drilling you can do
[07:33] (gopp) JanetB and in american also
[07:33] (gopp) :)
[07:34] (Astrodog) Because oil companies DO drill here, pretty much wherever the landowners will let them.
[07:34] (JanetB) and they keep finding more, but are not allowed to frill
[07:34] (JanetB) drill
[07:34] (gopp) Astrodog alska has tons of oil
[07:34] (Astrodog) Janet: That's total bullshit. If the landowners will let them, they can drill it.
[07:34] (gopp) Astrodog can they drill in alska
[07:34] (Revanch) JanetB - According to who? Who claims this? what does "more than enough" mean?
[07:34] (gopp) Astrodog can they drill in alska
[07:34] (gopp) Revanch can they drill in alsaka
[07:34] (Astrodog) gopp: ANWR is federal property. The feds are the land owner.
[07:34] (gopp) off shore drilling
[07:34] (gopp) is not allowed
[07:35] (Astrodog) Yes it is.
[07:35] (gopp) Astrodog then allow us to drill it
[07:35] (gopp) not in aslka
[07:35] (Astrodog) Its done all the fucking time.
[07:35] (gopp) not in alska
[07:35] (DeDannan) depending on the state...oil co's can drill even if the landowners don't want them to..."mineral rights" trump property rights
[07:35] (Streeker) big fight in alaska to drill
[07:35] (Revanch) JanetB - you're buying wholesale into complete myths that rely on total ignorance and a bent for believing in political interference.
[07:35] (gopp) wtf in anwr the feds won't allow it
[07:35] (Astrodog) DeD: Yeah. My mistake. Mineral rights owners.
[07:35] (Revanch) DeDannan - forgot about that...great point.
[07:35] (JanetB) Astrodog, then why did they not allow Jeb to drill off the coast of florida?
[07:35] (Astrodog) gopp: Its the federal government's land, and minerals.
[07:35] (Astrodog) Janet: Jeb?
[07:35] (TWThomas) gopp : do you have stock in BP ?
[07:35] (gopp) sure
[07:36] (JanetB) yes Jeb
[07:36] (Astrodog) Why the fuck would Jeb be drilling anything?
[07:36] (JanetB) BUsh
[07:36] (gopp) TWThomas I don't have stock in BP do you
[07:36] (Revanch) JanetB - JEB didn't want to let JEB drill off the coast of florida.
[07:36] (DeDannan) Jeb goes out every day in his bass boat and drills for oil
[07:36] (gopp) Revanch you got proof
[07:36] (Revanch) JanetB - what the hell kind of crack are you smoking, exactly?
[07:36] (gopp) Revanch name calling
[07:36] (JanetB) Astrodog,.. he wanted to allow drilling off the coast of florida, and was told no
[07:36] (gopp) Revanch why are you telling janetb and other that she smoke crack
[07:36] (Astrodog) Janet: I know for a fact you can drill offshore in Florida.
[07:37] (gopp) that is mean sprited
[07:37] (Astrodog) Because a customer of mine does it.
[07:37] (Revanch) JanetB - No, he didn't. You coudln't be more wrong about this if you tried.
[07:37] (gopp) Revanch only a liberal would say something like that
[07:37] (gopp) becuase they can not argue
[07:37] (gopp) Revanch give us proof
[07:37] (gopp) Revanch give us source citation tell where you say he didn't
[07:37] (gopp) back up your statment
[07:37] (gopp) tell us
[07:37] (Astrodog) gopp: One of my customers actually has drilling going, RIGHT NOW, in offshore FL
[07:38] (gopp) Astrodog who is your customers
[07:38] (TWThomas) gopp : I do have stock in BP
[07:38] (gopp) Astrodog yes in fl it allowed
[07:38] (gopp) Astrodog why not in aslka
[07:38] (TWThomas) gopp : and ANWR would make me some money
[07:38] (gr0mit) well define offshore florida...
[07:38] (gopp) why is the federal goverment not allowing in anwr
[07:38] (Astrodog) gopp: I have never, nor do I plan to, ever share who my customers are, with this channel.
[07:38] (gr0mit) the coast of florida is pretty large
[07:38] (gopp) Astrodog sure
[07:38] (gopp) but anwr
[07:38] (TWThomas) gopp : It's the Congress that keeps on killing ANWR
[07:38] (Astrodog) gopp: Its the federal government's land. The only reason they need, is because they don't want to.
[07:39] (Revanch) JanetB - Jeb Bush was OPPOSED to allowing off-shore drilling. This is what i mean. Your notions about energy are based on wholesale ignorance and notions of political interference.
[07:39] (gopp) why not allow us in anwr
[07:39] (gopp) TWThomas yes why
[07:39] (gopp) TWThomas why does nancy peolsi
[07:39] (gopp) keep saying NO
[07:39] (TWThomas) gopp : they don't want people like me to make money off of it
[07:39] (gopp) she the head of the congress
[07:39] (Astrodog) gopp: Because its not needed... and wouldn't make a big difference.
[07:39] (JanetB) ok... I am wrong, Jeb did not allow it...
[07:39] (gopp) Astrodog it is needed
[07:39] (gopp) it would help our supply
[07:39] (Astrodog) How much do you think ANWR would change the price?
[07:39] (Astrodog) Any guesses?
[07:39] (gopp) not just anwr
[07:39] (gopp) but in canada
[07:39] (gopp) thier tons of oil
[07:40] (gopp) to
[07:40] (gopp) up north has tons of oil
[07:40] (Astrodog) Alright, the whole damn country. Say we drilled every drop of oil we knew about on the North American Contenent.
[07:40] (Astrodog) How much do you think that would change the price of oil?
[07:40] (Revanch) JanetB - Fair enough. so its not just environmentalists that are against widespread, unrestricted drilling. Dyed-in-whole republicans are total NIMBYs on this issue too.
[07:40] (TWThomas) gopp : go look at the price of the stock symbol BPT and you see it has gone down extremely since the Republicans lost the Majority
[07:40] (gopp) Astrodog it would change the supply, that for sure
[07:40] (DeDannan) folks who keep pounding away at the notion that drilling in ANWR would somehow 'save' us from our dependence on imported oil remind me of a crack addict scraping the pipe for one more fix
[07:40] (Revanch) Astrodog - it'd be measured in pennies.
[07:40] (gopp) TWThomas congress has no effect or litte effect on stock price
[07:41] (Astrodog) Rev: The whole country would get ya a few bucks on the price of a barrel of oil... for maybe 12 months.
[07:41] (Revanch) DeDannan - yeah. if anything, it deepens our addiction, at the cost of spoiling what is supposed to be a preserve.
[07:41] (gopp) prove it Astrodog
[07:41] (gopp) prove it
[07:41] (TWThomas) gopp : no the Republicans lost the lobbying power to help that stock price BPT !
[07:41] (gopp) no not 12 month
[07:41] (gopp) TWThomas congress is run by liberals democartws
[07:41] (gopp) e.g. nancy peolsi
[07:41] (Astrodog) gopp: If you make the price go down, demand will rise.
[07:41] (gopp) anytime oil companies want to have more supply or progress
[07:41] (bud`) DeDannan be nice if it was as simple as that
[07:41] (Astrodog) Which will bring the price back up.
[07:42] (gopp) Astrodog that why you have a equalibrima
[07:42] (gopp) set it at a price where demand is not so high
[07:42] (Astrodog) gopp: There is no equilibrium with oil.
[07:42] (gopp) and price is not so high
[07:42] (Revanch) Astrodog - its profit would probably not even be enough to build the two Bridges to Nowhere that Alaska's pork-loving republican senators and reps want to build.
[07:42] (gopp) Astrodog oh right
[07:42] (JanetB) well I do remember in sept, the dems out there yelling about gas prices and how they were going to FIX it, and gas has only gone up since they took office
[07:42] (Astrodog) There is a finite quantity of it.
[07:42] (gopp) Astrodog it ecomonics 101
[07:42] (TWThomas) gopp : and also the BP Prudhoe Bay is need of repair the Republicans didn't figure that in so the Democrats used that in 2006 against Republicans that they didn't know anything about Oil.
[07:42] (JanetB) yet today they say NOTHING
[07:42] (Revanch) or rather, want the rest of the country's tax payers to build.
[07:42] (DeDannan) bud`, be nice if beer was free too
[07:43] (Astrodog) Janet: Because they, like Republicans, realized that there isn't crap they can do about it.
[07:43] (JanetB) Astrodog.. but they sure did use it and make promises they can not keep
[07:44] (JanetB) KNOWING they could do nothing
[07:44] (TSnow1) So who's voting for ron Paul, the actual conservative candidate
[07:44] (Revanch) Astrodog - in the short term, that's true. Long-term changes can be made though.
[07:44] (Astrodog) Rev: Not in oil. In the larger market of "Energy", absolutly.
[07:44] (TSnow1) vs kill babies/take your guns guiliani
[07:44] (Revanch) its all a matter of political will. So long as there are lots of JanetBs who think that we just need to drill more, this country will be screwed.
[07:44] (PickleWk) It's too bad that Ron Paul attracted a bunch of antisemitic, truther, conspiracy-nut assholes. I might have supported him, but I won't fellow-travel with scum. If Paul will, he's not the man.
[07:44] (patch6) TSnow1, aye
[07:44] (Revanch) Astrodog - agreed. that's what i mean.
[07:45] (JanetB) Revanch, I did not say JUST drill more
[07:45] (TSnow1) antisemetic, ROFL
[07:45] (JanetB) I gave several soultions
[07:45] (patch6) guilt/honor by association isn't a valid reason
[07:45] (TSnow1) got you hook line and sinker
[07:45] (patch6) to accept or disprove of a candidate
[07:45] (bud`) Pickle hey, stormfront.org is now his most widely known backer
[07:45] (PickleWk) Yes. People who think that the Jews were behind 9/11 are antisemites.
[07:45] (Revanch) PickleWk - haha. So is it somehow Paul's fault that people YOU don't like back him?
[07:46] (TSnow1) of course, it's called guilt by retardation(association)
[07:46] (PickleWk) Revanch: No, it's Paul's fault that when he noticed that these idiots were backing him, he didn't immediately disown them and publicly request that they stop.
[07:46] (PickleWk) If he wants them as supporters, it'll cost me as one.
[07:46] (PickleWk) That's what I'm saying.
[07:46] (Revanch) JanetB - Cutting taxes on oil doesn't do SHIT to solve the fact that we can't produce as much as we consume, by a longshot. we'd still IMPORT it. That's not a "solution," that's smoke and mirrors.
[07:47] (JanetB) I am still supporting Romney
[07:47] (TSnow1) Stormfront idiots backed bush in 2000/2004
[07:47] (bud`) nope
[07:47] (patch6) "hey guys, stop liking me"
[07:47] (JanetB) and building more refineries will help too
[07:47] (Tailor) I don't think so, heh
[07:47] (PickleWk) No, actually, Stormfront hates Bush.
[07:47] (PickleWk) Which means he's worth looking at.
[07:47] (TSnow1) actually
[07:48] (TSnow1) he's a whore to american sovereignty
[07:48] (L0c0) same would be true if we let oil companies drill in alaska. they'd have more oil/import less, but the refining capasity would be the same...b/c they drill in alaska doesn't mean they can produce more gas
[07:48] (JanetB) but you think all my suggestions are nothing, so no point in talking about it with you
[07:48] (TSnow1) like many in both parties
[07:48] (TSnow1) illegal imigration
[07:48] (bud`) haha love it
[07:48] (TSnow1) especially bad
[07:48] (bud`) false statement
[07:48] (bud`) actualy
[07:48] (PickleWk) Sometimes a good judge of a man's character is who likes him and who hates his guts.
[07:48] (Revanch) PickleWk - 1. that would be pointless to do so. Nobody believes that Paul is courting that (in so far as this really is an issue, i don't think it is) and 2. Many republican candidates have had all manner of crazies and bigots and racists openly back them and have never turned them away. I mean, that's part of teh republican base.
[07:48] (bud`) blah blah bullshit
[07:48] (patch6) the idea of reduced government influence over one's life is attractive across the board
[07:48] (TSnow1) small government
[07:48] (TSnow1) god forbid
[07:49] (patch6) somehow an idea being popular is supposed to be disadvantageous
[07:49] (TSnow1) Big Gov't Dems/Reps are both going toward the left
[07:49] (PickleWk) Revanch: Actually, lots of people think that Paul is courting them, and more assume that every time the Prisonplanet lunatics spam another poll or mass-email another radio commentator. I won't be associated with that element, even if Paul is willing to.
[07:49] (TSnow1) more and more
[07:49] (bud`) small govt is something noble we all want, reality islargest economic/military power on earth isnt gonna get it
[07:49] (Astrodog) L0c0: And they aren't going to get to where they can refine more, until the price of oil stabilizes.
[07:49] (Revanch) PickleWk - fair enough. why do you like instead then? pretty lousy field.
[07:50] (Revanch) who, rather
[07:50] (PickleWk) Revanch: Newt Gingrich.
[07:50] (Astrodog) If they drop the price of gas, below the raw cost, for the oil... the 10-20B they just spent on a refinery... was spent on a giant, unprofitable plant, that they cannot shut down, without having to redo the whole thingh later.
[07:50] (TWThomas) TSnow1 : please Stormfront actually trashed the Bush Administration
[07:50] (TSnow1) largest economic power yeah, conreolled by old europe money
[07:50] (TSnow1) in debt
[07:50] (Revanch) PickleWk - he makes Paul look electable by comparison.
[07:50] (TSnow1) not backed currency
[07:51] (TSnow1) stormfront was all for bush at the begining
[07:51] (TSnow1) regardless
[07:51] (TSnow1) stormfront ISN"T the issue
[07:51] (PickleWk) Revanch: May be, but that's who I like. As to who has a chance of winning that I'd hold my nose and back, that'd be Giuliani.
[07:51] (TSnow1) the issue is bringing back this country
[07:51] (bud`) TSnow1 again, fail
[07:51] (TSnow1) to some sort of smaller gov't/less interventionist state
[07:51] (TSnow1) again
[07:51] (TSnow1) bud fails in his accessment
[07:51] (bud`) noble, sure, realistic, no
[07:52] (TSnow1) realistic
[07:52] (PickleWk) Revanch: I'd consider Thompson if he can prove he has any ability whatsoever to hold his own in a debate. So far he's failed.
[07:52] (TSnow1) so go along or get along
[07:52] (TSnow1) rofl
[07:52] (TWThomas) TSnow1 : Stormfront says one thing good about a Candidate then trash them
[07:52] (Revanch) PickleWk - you really think Giuliani has a shot of even winning the republican primary? Many of the liberal/libertarian republican voters he'd rely on won't even vote republican in the General Election in 08.
[07:52] (bud`) TSnow1 well go to a LP coffee shop meeting and cry about it. reality will keep on going
[07:52] (TSnow1) Guiliani ISN"T conservative people
[07:52] (TSnow1) ANTI GUN
[07:52] (TSnow1) Pro Abortion
[07:52] (TSnow1) Pro illegal immigration
[07:53] (gr0mit) pro 9/11
[07:53] (TSnow1) damn joke
[07:53] (bud`) jesus
[07:53] (bud`) f'ing
[07:53] (bud`) tits
[07:53] (TSnow1) guliani firm is help forming the north american union
[07:53] (TSnow1) and the trans texas corridor
[07:53] (gr0mit) thats slimey
[07:53] (TSnow1) guliani represented saudi's with his form after 911
[07:53] (TSnow1) HE FAILS
[07:53] (PickleWk) Revanch: Actually I think that Giuliani will attract a certain libertarian element that's uncomfortable with the more socially conservative Republicans. And yes, I do think he can win the primary if he continues to focus on states rights in defending his more liberal positions.
[07:54] (Revanch) Giuliani likes his conservatism a la carte. But that's beside the point, what disqualifies Giuliani, is that he's a fucking loser whose knowledge of foreign policy makes even George Bush look competent and astute by comparison.
[07:54] (patch6) that txdot deal was especially bad
[07:54] (patch6) just giving over infrastructure to the spanish
[07:54] (TSnow1) Romney, socialized healthcare, anti gun
[07:54] (TSnow1) mccain
[07:54] (gr0mit) mccain is just confused
[07:54] (TSnow1) rofl global warming CF reform, another fake republican
[07:54] (patch6) CENTRA-Zachry
[07:54] (Revanch) PickleWrk - I think that if there's anybody who'd vote for Giuliani they'd find the same reasons to vote for Romney, but i could be wrong.
[07:54] (TSnow1) him and feingold/kennedy tag team
[07:54] (PickleWk) As both Clinton and Bush proved, an extensive knowledge of foreign policy hardly disqualifies one for the position of President. In fact, the hokeyer the better.
[07:54] (TSnow1) likes it's no big thing
[07:55] (PickleWk) After all, most Americans don't know shit about foreign policy. That's why they don't tend to fault potential Presidents for a similar weakness.
[07:55] (bud`) TSnow1 register as a libertarian
[07:55] (Revanch) Pickle - Needless to say comparing Bill Clinton and George Bush in matters of foreign policy is a joke. Bush doesn't even come close.
[07:55] (bud`) TSnow1 give em your phone number
[07:56] (bud`) TSnow1 they'll call you to meetings at some backwoods coffee place once a month where you can all cry about it
[07:56] (TSnow1) bud, did you sign up for democrat light party yet (GOP)
[07:56] (PickleWk) Revanch: The problem with Romney is that he's even more rabidly anti-gun than Giuliani, and unlike Giuliani he said the magic words: "I support the assault weapons ban."
[07:56] (PickleWk) Revanch: He instantly lost any NRA member's primary vote.
[07:57] (PickleWk) Revanch: Boloney. Both Clinton and Bush had about the same knowledge of foreign policy ignorance, and demonstrated it throughout their respective tenures.
[07:57] (PickleWk) Er, about the same level.
[07:57] (Revanch) PickleWk - well those "NRA voters" who vote single issue will have to be diabused of that idiotic behavior at some point, this is an opportunity for that.
[07:58] (PickleWk) Revanch: Well, they won't. There's no way anyone who vocally supports something like the Assault Weapons Ban becomes the Republican candidate.
[07:58] (bud`) nra single issue voters are nothing. its nra money that trashes candidates
[07:58] (PickleWk) Period, end of story. The NRA, unlike the Christian coalition really IS a kingmaker, or breaker.
[07:59] (Revanch) PickleWk - As i recall, Bill Clinton didn't engage the better part of the National Guard in an extensive, unilateral occupation of a middle-eastern country, while bush did.
[07:59] (bud`) expect the NRA to heavily fund *any* 527 group against rudy etc, on any issue
[07:59] (gopp) Revanch wtf
[07:59] (gopp) Revanch when did bush do that
[07:59] (Revanch) Pickle - you may be right, but to get a nominee like they want, they'll lose the general election.
[07:59] (PickleWk) Revanch: No, he didn't do anything, really, or care to. He neither understood nor gave a damn about America's position on the world stage.
[08:00] (gopp) Revanch why are you such a rabid anti bush
[08:00] (Revanch) Bush has made that mode impossible to replicate.
[08:00] (TSnow1) Bush failed as a conservative
[08:00] (gopp) Revanch yes that why clinton didn't even cpature
[08:00] (bud`) gopp stfu pls
[08:00] (TSnow1) failure
[08:00] (gopp) Revanch yes that why clinton didn't even capture binladen
[08:00] (gopp) or try to kill
[08:00] (PickleWk) Revanch: They will not lose the general election with Rudy Giuliani. They'll clean the clock of any comer, including Hillary.
[08:00] (Streeker) whats another word for self aware?
[08:00] (gopp) he had chances to take him out or take him
[08:00] (TSnow1) Why is Bush leaving the borders wide open, while "fighting the war on terror"?
[08:00] (gopp) Revanch what makes ommba or hillary qualifed
[08:01] (gopp) TSnow1 wide open
[08:01] (gopp) TSnow1 that why we have a fence
[08:01] (TSnow1) cause he shares the same ideas as his dad
[08:01] (Revanch) PickleWk - good god, i'd take that bet any day of the week. Ain't NO WAY that Rudy Giuliani is the next president of the United States. No damn way.
[08:01] (TSnow1) integration
[08:01] (gopp) that we are budling
[08:01] (TSnow1) into the world
[08:01] (gopp) TSnow1 we are budling a fucken fence
[08:01] (TSnow1) north american community
[08:01] (gopp) TSnow1 and we are passing
[08:01] (gopp) a imigration bill
[08:01] (TSnow1) ROFL
[08:01] (gopp) TSnow1 that makes for enforcement of the boader
[08:01] (gopp) that bush support
[08:01] (TSnow1) ROFL
[08:01] (gopp) TSnow1 stop spewing lies
[08:01] (bud`) gopp stfu pls
[08:01] (TSnow1) Reality hits you
[08:01] (TSnow1) like a ton of bricks
[08:01] (gopp) TSnow1 we are putting up a fence
[08:01] (TSnow1) bush is a one worlder
[08:02] (gopp) TSnow1 we are defending
[08:02] (TSnow1) like his daddy
[08:02] (gopp) our country boarder
[08:02] (bud`) bbl
[08:02] (TSnow1) yeah the iraqi border with syria
[08:02] (gopp) bud` sorry
[08:02] (TSnow1) not mexican border
[08:02] (gopp) TSnow1 and the north american border
[08:02] (gopp) with meixco
[08:02] (gopp) yes
[08:02] (gopp) with meixco
[08:02] (Revanch) Giuliani may think he's Mayor of the Universe, but he's just not that well-liked, or even well-respected. His many skeletons haven't even been dug up yet.
[08:02] (gopp) we are bulding a fence with the boarder of south of the us and meixco
[08:02] (TSnow1) failur
[08:02] (gopp) it is fact
[08:03] (gopp) TSnow1 what attacks have occured on us soil after 911
[08:03] (TSnow1) amnesty
[08:03] (PickleWk) Revanch: To much of the country, Rudy Giuliani remains a national hero. He would clean up as a candidate, and since he's a moderate he'd even appeal to Democrats. His numbers indicate that far fewer Democrats actually dislike Giuliani than Republicans hate Hillary Clinton.
[08:03] (TSnow1) it;'s not the terrorism part only
[08:03] (JanetB) wait a min, I thought personal morals were no longer an issue on the political front
[08:03] (gopp) TSnow1 have you even read the darn bill
[08:03] (TSnow1) it's a sovereignty problem
[08:03] (TSnow1) with illegals
[08:03] (gopp) TSnow1 have you read the bill yet
[08:03] (JanetB) after all, what they do on their personal life, does not affect us, right?
[08:03] (TSnow1) yes
[08:03] (TSnow1) part of the bill
[08:04] (TSnow1) talks about integration into the north american community
[08:04] (gopp) TSnow1 then it don't give illegals what they want
[08:04] (TSnow1) shared sociali services between us mexico
[08:04] (gopp) TSnow1 they must pay a fine
[08:04] (TSnow1) it's a joke
[08:04] (gopp) shared
[08:04] (gopp) who said shared
[08:04] (gopp) TSnow1 stop ranting
[08:04] (TSnow1) you fail
[08:04] (JanetB) pay a fine big deal
[08:04] (TSnow1) your party fails
[08:05] (gopp) TSnow1 and what has your party done :)
[08:05] (PickleWk) The only thing standing between Giuliani and the Presidency is the Republican primary. If the Christian retards can be kept at bay, he'll win that and go on to win the Presidency.
[08:05] (gopp) ??????
[08:05] (gopp) TSnow1 and what has your party done :) ?????
[08:05] (TSnow1) the CP party
[08:05] (TSnow1) mnot much
[08:05] (gopp) what has the CP party done
[08:05] (TSnow1) because the liberal DNC/GOP don;'t want us in
[08:05] (gopp) and you come here and tell us that our party is bad
[08:05] (gopp) TSnow1 they don't want the CP
[08:06] (TSnow1) there going to globalize america to the point where we are to meshed into the world
[08:06] (gopp) wtf is a cp party
[08:06] (TSnow1) without an identity
[08:06] (Revanch) 1. I seriously dispute the notion that "much of the country" considers Giuliani a "national hero", and even then there are a lot of "national heroes" who are unelectable. He's really not a "moderate," in any sense, he's just policitally shifty. And republicans hating hillary clinton is a pathology, not some measure of normalcy.
[08:06] (gopp) wtf is a cp party?????
[08:06] (TSnow1) constitution
[08:06] (TSnow1) Micheal A Peroutka
[08:06] (PickleWk) All the sloppy socialists and communists were all for internationalism, before they realized that that meant international capitalism. Poor silly retards.
[08:06] (TSnow1) chuck Baldwin
[08:06] (gopp) http://www.constitutionparty.com/
[08:06] (gopp) wtf AMNESTY VOTE DELAYED UNTIL MONDAY!
[08:06] (gopp) Tell Your Senators to Vote NO on Cloture!
[08:07] (freetrad3) Anyone have an opinion on the fix for msft which prevents the o day attack and essentially closes the wholes in office products permanently ?
[08:07] (freetrad3) MOICE is the name of it.
[08:07] (TSnow1) Amnesty
[08:07] (TSnow1) is what it is
[08:07] (freetrad3) Is there a downside to installing it.
[08:07] (PickleWk) I'd consider supporting the Constitution Party if Hillary Clinton weren't a potential President. But she must be stopped at all costs; supporting third parties is not a luxury that anyone who loves freedom can afford at the moment.
[08:07] (gopp) me to
[08:07] (TSnow1) rofl
[08:07] (gopp) Pickle
[08:07] (gopp) if hillary where not running
[08:08] (TSnow1) don;'t you get it
[08:08] (gopp) but hillary would win
[08:08] (freetrad3) it takes any office document potentiallly unsafe, in a safe environment converts it to .xml and wont allow it to run malicious code.
[08:08] (gopp) if you vote n 1992, a coalition of independent state parties united to form the U.S. Taxpayers Party. The U.S. Taxpayer's Party's goal was to limit the Federal Government to its constitutional boundaries and to restore civil government to the principles our country was founded upon.
[08:08] (Revanch) haha that's not over the top at all.
[08:08] (TSnow1) there is little difference between the dem/gop establishment
[08:08] (TSnow1) LITTLe
[08:08] (Revanch) PickleWk - so Hillary Clinton is going to imperil freedom, in your view?
[08:08] (TSnow1) clinton is running around with old man Bush
[08:08] (gopp) freetrad3 Astrodog said drilling for oil in anwr and up north would only last 12 months is that a fair statement
[08:08] (PickleWk) TSnow: Normally, that's correct, but Hillary Clinton is an overt socialist. She'd be a major disaster.
[08:08] (PickleWk) Revanch: Yes.
[08:08] (TSnow1) I agree
[08:08] (gopp) Revanch yes
[08:09] (TSnow1) hillary licks giant balls
[08:09] (TSnow1) without a doubt
[08:09] (freetrad3) Basically it changes the code in a safe. and elminats teh possibility for mailicious attack.
[08:09] (gopp) Revanch universal health care is very soclist
[08:09] (gopp) freetrad3 Astrodog said drilling for oil in anwr and up north would only last 12 months is that a fair statement??? freetrad3
[08:09] (TSnow1) but you want to watch this country fall away from it's roots fast or slow...
[08:09] (freetrad3) Gopp, He has no idea.
[08:09] (TSnow1) you got dem
[08:09] (TSnow1) and dem light
[08:09] (freetrad3) Noone knows for sure.
[08:09] (TSnow1) which one to choose
[08:09] (freetrad3) The greatest enigeers in the world dont know.
[08:09] (gopp) freetrad3 he said that demand would dry it all up
[08:09] (TSnow1) if their both whores, you choose neither on principle
[08:09] (freetrad3) What makes you think he would know.
[08:09] (gopp) freetrad3 oh wow
[08:09] (Revanch) PickleWk - "overt socialist" huh? Care to elaborate on that?
[08:10] (freetrad3) and in any event it would still help.
[08:10] (gopp) freetrad3 he claims to be a expert
[08:10] (TSnow1) without secret
[08:10] (freetrad3) Gopp, Dont trust what you hear on irc.
[08:10] (TSnow1) she is a socialist
[08:10] (freetrad3) unless its from me ;)
[08:10] (gopp) Revanch universal healthcare
[08:10] (TSnow1) hillary is
[08:10] (gopp) Revanch universal healthcare is very soclist, and that hillary big plan
[08:10] (PickleWk) Revanch: As a matter of fact, I think that Hillary Clinton hates liberty, hates capitalism, and generally hates everything America was built on and represents. She wants to turn America into a typical socialist European state, and would completely abrogate the Constitution if necessary to do that. She is the worst thing that could happen to America.
[08:10] (TSnow1) i'm very familiar with it
[08:10] (Revanch) TSnow1 - please stop wasting channel space by typing one word per post. Formulate a complete thought first.
[08:10] (gopp) Revanch do you care to refute that
[08:10] (TSnow1) It take a friggin village crap
[08:10] (gopp) Revanch do you care to refute that
[08:10] (gopp) Revanch universal healthcare is very soclist, and that hillary big plan
[08:10] (freetrad3) Tony snow ?
[08:11] (freetrad3) hey!
[08:11] (gopp) Revanch answer my question
[08:11] (gopp) freetrad3 it tony snow from fox
[08:11] (gopp) and the wdc
[08:11] (gopp) :)
[08:11] (freetrad3) Ethanol no better than gasoline, Study in California as a pollutant.
[08:11] (gopp) jk
[08:11] (gopp) Revanch is universal healthcare soclist is it ???
[08:11] (freetrad3) Stanford says ethanol is no better and might be worse.
[08:11] (TSnow1) "If one understands that socialism is not a share-the-wealth programme, but is in reality a method to consolidate and control the wealth, then the seeming paradox of super-rich men promoting socialism becomes no paradox at all. Instead, it becomes logical, even the perfect tool of power-seeking megalomaniacs. Communism or more accurately, socialism, is not a movement of the downtrodden masses, but of the economic elite." - Gary Allen
[08:11] (gopp) Revanch answer my question
[08:12] (gopp) Revanch is universal healthcare soclist is it ???
[08:12] (gopp) Revanch universal healthcare is very soclist, and that hillary big plan
[08:12] (freetrad3) Tony Snow was from fox and was Bushs press secretary still is.
[08:12] (Revanch) Pickle - If that were the case, why did she vote for teh Iraq war? That's not very "european socialist" of her is it? Care to cite anything in her Senate record which supports your fears?
[08:12] (bud`) ANWAR would produce 13 months oil tops
[08:12] (gopp) freetrad3 did he recover from cancer
[08:12] (freetrad3) ethanol, could increase the death rate 120 deaths a year.
[08:12] (TSnow1) nah
[08:12] (freetrad3) in california
[08:12] (TSnow1) theres a lot more in ANWAR
[08:12] (gopp) [11:13] (bud`) ANWAR would produce 13 months oil tops
[08:12] (TSnow1) then reported
[08:12] (bud`) theres a reason we backed off from doing it in the 90s
[08:12] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: how goes it?
[08:12] (TSnow1) bs reason
[08:13] (bud`) hey by all means, drill it
[08:13] (gopp) TSnow1 why do we allow federal goverment to own this lands
[08:13] (bud`) a years worth of oil for the country
[08:13] (gopp) freetrad3 what your opnion about the " Constitution Party "
[08:13] (freetrad3) A years worth of oil for this country is a HUGE amount.
[08:13] (freetrad3) HUGE
[08:13] (TSnow1) Oil companies make more from there oil being in the mideast + they can use the distance as a further carrot over the americans head
[08:13] (freetrad3) Gopp, Religious nuts.
[08:13] (PickleWk) Revanch: She's repudiated her support for the war. And her Senate record doesn't prove anything, since she spent its entirety in the opposition. However, her attack on the free market for healthcare during Bill Clinton's tenure is an example of what she intends for America.
[08:13] (gopp) freetrad3 oh they are
[08:13] (TSnow1) when the oil is accessed through alaska
[08:13] (TSnow1) heh no problems
[08:13] (freetrad3) Hey Goss!
[08:13] (Gosseyn) Ahhh, the Constitutionalists aren't "religious nuts". They're just secessionists.
[08:13] (gopp) freetrad3 why don't they get elected freetrad3
[08:13] (TSnow1) allthough canada is a nice oil country
[08:13] (freetrad3) Just waking up ;)
[08:14] (Revanch) freetrade3 - no, its not, as far as oil is concerned.
[08:14] (freetrad3) well 7am, but it feels like I just got up.
[08:14] (freetrad3) Yes it is. a years worth of oil is a hell of a lot..
[08:14] (TSnow1) actually
[08:14] (TSnow1) there not succesionist
[08:14] (PickleWk) Revanch: Furthermore, she has promised to essentially seize the assets of oil companies for state-directed use.
[08:14] (TSnow1) many are secularists
[08:14] (Revanch) PickleWk - please cite that one. I haven't heard anything like that.
[08:15] (bud`) 3.4bbl oil avail at proposed anwar site. source USGS.
[08:15] (freetrad3) Considering oil as a primary source of fuel is going to be the next 20 years say for speculation. 1 year out of 20, find 19 more sources like that and we have energy independence.
[08:15] (gopp) Revanch answer my question
[08:15] (gopp) Revanch answer it
[08:15] (freetrad3) what about the newest find in the gulf..
[08:15] (gopp) Revanch is universal healthcare solciist or not
[08:15] (gopp) Revanch answer my question
[08:15] (freetrad3) Whats that amount to in time of oil supply ?
[08:15] (TSnow1) there's tons in the gulf
[08:15] (Revanch) freetrade - hahaa. "find 19 more like that"
[08:15] (gopp) Revanch answer my question
[08:15] (TSnow1) it's the access thats the problem
[08:15] (patch6) gopp, it's socialist
[08:16] (freetrad3) America consumers more oil than all european countries combined. a years supply is a hell of alot.
[08:16] (TSnow1) and the increase in the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation index
[08:16] (JanetB) what was hillarys comment to the profits of the oil companys, we will take it from you from the common good of the people
[08:16] (gopp) socialist
[08:16] (TSnow1) tlantic Basin
[08:16] (freetrad3) Why not
[08:16] (PickleWk) Revanch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1PfE9K8j0g
[08:16] (JanetB) I think that was how she said it
[08:16] (TSnow1) increase the chances of hurricanes/TS's
[08:16] (gopp) JanetB Revanch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1PfE9K8j0g
[08:16] (freetrad3) The geological survey has found a number of sites with potentially high amounts of oil around the US.
[08:16] (JanetB) gopp.. I can see what Pickle posted
[08:16] (TSnow1) envirowhockos
[08:16] (TSnow1) close up shop
[08:16] (TSnow1) for oil drilling
[08:17] (TSnow1) regulation crap
[08:17] (freetrad3) Yep..
[08:17] (bud`) U.S. 20,730,000 bbl/day
[08:17] (Revanch) JanetB - What is better for your interests: Affordable Healthcare, or Oil Executives recieving $400 million compesation packages?
[08:17] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: only problem is that econazis and their lobbyists have Congress by the balls.
[08:17] (Gosseyn) Revanch: *snort* use the class envy card much, socialist tool?
[08:17] (freetrad3) I agree, its the environmentalists who are simply trying to sabotage any opportunity to become more energy independent.
[08:17] (gopp) NCOMPOTENT ASSHOLES.
[08:17] (gopp) XM Management is completly incompotent. How can anyone have job preformance this shitty and still remain employeed? Dear god...
[08:17] (patch6) "Many of you are well enough off that ... the tax cuts may have helped you," Sen. Clinton said. "We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." - June 29 2004 AP article
[08:17] (gopp) freetrad3 that is fact
[08:17] (freetrad3) To not use the oil in Anwr makes o sense.
[08:17] (JanetB) hahahahha... I do not want social health care... and the oil company put the money out, they reap the profits
[08:17] (PickleWk) Well, if you agree with Hillary's brand of socialism, then you agree with it. Vote for her. But I think it's horrible and that's why she must be opposed at all costs.
[08:17] (bud`) dont ask me why thats our consumption and they figure 3.4bbl will last a year. heh
[08:17] (JanetB) you want to make money, put the money into it
[08:18] (gopp) Revanch is just ranting
[08:18] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: but... but... it could disturb the ecosystem of a few hundred caribou and moose! whatever would they DO?
[08:18] (gopp) Revanch she spews the liberal media bias
[08:18] (freetrad3) its not a sanctuary in that small amount of area, My ex foster son lived up there and laughs when they call anwr a wildlife reserve.
[08:18] (gopp) Revanch don't you
[08:18] (JanetB) invest in oil companies
[08:18] (gopp) Revanch do y ou think for your self
[08:18] (bud`) gopp: /quit
[08:18] (bud`) =P
[08:18] (freetrad3) Its also so huge it wouldnt impact the wildlife.
[08:18] (gr0mit) we can become energy independent without oil
[08:18] (gopp) bud` why
[08:18] (Gosseyn) Revanch: you know what? There's no RIGHT to healthcare. If you can't afford it, boo hoo hoo, too fucking bad.
[08:18] (gopp) I can't have fun, and chat
[08:18] (freetrad3) Anwr is so huge, where we would drill is so small
[08:18] (gr0mit) the US holds 1 fourth of the world coal supply
[08:19] (TSnow1) there no right to many welfare state benefits
[08:19] (gr0mit) well already produce half our electricity with coal
[08:19] (freetrad3) US has enough expensive oil to last 200 years.
[08:19] (gr0mit) so if we'd run electric cars we wouldnt need oil
[08:19] (Gosseyn) What's that? Your job doesn't have benefits that *pay for your health insurance*? Get a second job and self-pay. Get a better job where the employer subsidizes a significant portion of your group health plan.
[08:19] (gopp) Gosseyn yepe
[08:19] (freetrad3) We should produce at least 50% of elect. with nuclear
[08:19] (Revanch) PickleWk - The are some things i agree with her on, but i wouldn't necessarily support her. I think much of the opposition toward her is entirely founded on misconceptions and irrational fears, and in no small part, misogyny, though i don't attribute that to you.
[08:19] (TSnow1) 19 bucks a week for Health insurance
[08:19] (Gosseyn) gr0mit: wrong. if we'd run electric cars, we'd simply be pushing the polluting/oil-burning up the food chain to the electricity generating stations.
[08:20] (bud`) hey by all means drill anwar. just look at the USGS/other estimates of how much oil there is. It aint shit. its a start I guess but further down here in the midwest theres so much much more
[08:20] (TSnow1) I think someone can dig up the change
[08:20] (Gosseyn) Revanch: No, the opposition toward Hitlery is based on the simple fact that she's a cryptosocialist.
[08:20] (TSnow1) crypto
[08:20] (TSnow1) not even
[08:20] (freetrad3) Democrats are really playing politics with the troops now, trying to seduce them with a policy which causes them to spend less time. that day will come, but its not the time now.
[08:20] (TSnow1) overt as stated above
[08:20] (Gosseyn) TSnow1: "crypto" = "hidden"
[08:20] (Gosseyn) TSnow1: well, she's trying to hide it. Sometimes.
[08:20] (gopp) Revanch learn to listen and read and form your own opnion
[08:20] (TSnow1) not doing a very good job
[08:20] (freetrad3) Less time in iraq
[08:21] (gr0mit) Gosseyn: its more efficient to get energy from coal in the form of electricity than it is to drill oil and burn it
[08:21] (TSnow1) when she writes an entire book
[08:21] (TSnow1) about it
[08:21] (freetrad3) thats wrong, thats not the job of congess.
[08:21] (Revanch) Gosseyn - hey, you're more than welcome to vote against your own interests, and for horrible failures like George Bush again and again.
[08:21] (freetrad3) its not their constitutional decision.
[08:21] (Gosseyn) gr0mit: doesn't change the fact that we're still burning a lot of oil to make electricity.
[08:21] (PickleWk) Revanch: I think the fact that Dick Morris has basically defected to the right because of how scared he is of Hillary (he continues to idolize Bill) says a lot about how "irrational" those fears of Hillary are.
[08:21] (Gosseyn) Revanch: Wow, knee-jerk Bush-hating much?
[08:21] (gopp) freetrad3 [11:22] (Revanch) Gosseyn - hey, you're more than welcome to vote against your own interests, and for horrible failures like George Bush again and again.
[08:21] (gopp) for horrible failures like George Bush again and again.
[08:21] (Revanch) gromit - not to mention refine, transport and distribute oil.
[08:21] (gopp) wtf
[08:21] (gopp) Revanch why did you say this
[08:21] (gopp) Revanch " for horrible failures like George Bush again and again. "
[08:21] (TSnow1) definite failures
[08:21] (Gosseyn) Revanch: how DARE you tell ANYONE what their "own interests" are?
[08:21] (freetrad3) Failure like the best economy in US history.
[08:22] (gopp) Revanch how is bush a a failure
[08:22] (gr0mit) the rifining procees for crude oil consumes more energy than you get out of gasoline
[08:22] (Gosseyn) Revanch: oh, RIGHT. You KNOW what's best for us. Just like every other socialist throughout history.
[08:22] (freetrad3) failure like the most visionary foreign policy in decades.
[08:22] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: well, I wouldn't go THAT far.
[08:22] (freetrad3) whether or not you disagree with some tactics.
[08:22] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: but I've definitely prospered under Bush43.
[08:22] (bud`) gr0mit ethanol is even better.. you know how much fuel you gotta burn to turn 400+lbs of corn into a barrel of ethanol? =P
[08:22] (Revanch) Pickle - Morris has been right for a long time, and that's because Dick Morris is a shady asshole, regardless of who he supports. Also, Morris is notoriously wrong. He once believed Condoleeza Rice could be the Republican Nominee. Morris is no benchmark for reality.
[08:23] (Gosseyn) BushCo's domestic policy has been quite profitable for me and my wife. :)
[08:23] (Revanch) right as in right-wing
[08:23] (JanetB) Rice could be, she does not want to be
[08:23] (gr0mit) bud`: heh quite a lot
[08:23] (freetrad3) Goss, What is more visionary in foreign policy ? Wilson ? FDRs 4 points, was it four or 13 ? :)
[08:23] (freetrad3) hjehehe
[08:23] (Revanch) JanetB - no, she really couldn't, but you know, you believe a lot of kooky things too.
[08:23] * Gosseyn shakes his head. Sad little Revanch, living in his own dreamworld.
[08:23] (bud`) gr0mit let em think its all for the 'common good' heh
[08:24] (PickleWk) Revanch: He might not be right about a lot of things, but he was close enough to Hillary to understand what she's about--and if he's so shady, that doesn't explain why he continues to be an apologist for Bill Clinton's administration.
[08:24] (freetrad3) republicans may kill their future, what else is knew.
[08:24] (PickleWk) He just hates Hillary. I think for good reason, based on what she's said and tried to do over the years.
[08:24] (JanetB) Revanch... you have done nothing here today, but attempt to belittle anyone that does not agree with you.. do you really have anything to say, or are you just here to bash anyone that is not in agreement with you
[08:24] (freetrad3) alienate the hispanic vote when we know that eventually there will be a deal.
[08:25] (Revanch) PickleWk - You have to separate Morris' interests ( or rather, conflict of) with what he claims. You don't think he realizes there's a huge market (you and others) and a willing outlet (fox news) for him to sell this notion and forge his reputation on it?
[08:25] (freetrad3) Federal judge blocked the law preventing landlords from renting to illegals, I knew it would happen, it will stand up in higher courts too.
[08:25] (freetrad3) turns cities into big brother..
[08:25] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: I have a lot of problems with some of Bush's policies -- not the least of which was his colossal expansion of Medicare via the prescription-drug benefit. Wanna talk about expanding the welfare state? Jesus.
[08:25] (PickleWk) Revanch: If he was such a whore for Fox News, I would think that he'd give up on defending Bill Clinton, rather than considering him one of the best Presidents in recent history.
[08:25] (freetrad3) and its unfair because it allows illegals already renting but not new renters.. or changeing rent.
[08:26] (bud`) renting to illegals is just stupid in the first place. landlords shouldnt even need a law
[08:26] (freetrad3) Goss, had he not had the welfare program the dems would have won, AARP does have that much power. and the bill would cost 4 times as much if the dems had crafted it.
[08:26] (freetrad3) its a bill which relies on the free market for competition.
[08:26] (Kalomine) why don't illegals become legals? is getting a work visa some huge problem?
[08:26] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: it's still a slap in the face of every conservative who ever supported Bush43.
[08:26] (L0c0) bud`: if people did what's right, there'd be no need for laws
[08:26] (freetrad3) The democratic bill would rely on socialism completely
[08:26] (Gosseyn) Kalomine: yeah, they don't want to have to go through legal channels.
[08:26] (freetrad3) and its cost less than Bushs own estimates.
[08:27] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: and the GOP bill DOESN'T? It's Socialism-Lite.
[08:27] (freetrad3) Its been a huge success.
[08:27] (Kalomine) I don't understand the issue with not putting pressure on illegals and those who employ/house them
[08:27] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: it's another expansion of the Nanny State, and should be repealed.
[08:27] (bud`) L0c0 heh. i value my property. last thing i need is someone with 10 social security numbers to disappear on me when i need payed
[08:27] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: there is no RIGHT to taxpayer subsidized prescriptions.
[08:27] (freetrad3) Its a key for any future legislation of a similar type. Keep it privatized, keep the governments role to only paying the bills and let the private sector compete for the buisness.
[08:27] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: or taxpayer-subsidized healthcare for the elderly.
[08:27] (freetrad3) its the lesser of evils.
[08:27] (L0c0) bud`: yesterday kicked off national saftey belt week... Bush started it by driving his pickup w/o his seatbelt on. he broke the law. if he'd buckle up every time, there'd be no need for that sort of thing
[08:27] (L0c0) :-P
[08:27] (Revanch) PickleWk - Morris doesn't "defend" Bill Clinton so much as he laments him, as in he was such a good president and i tried to save him from himself, but you know bill, just couldn't help himself ,and he let me down. Its entirely back-handed and self-serving. That's Morris' M.O. Plus, keep in mind he likes to fancy himself the "true" source of Clinton's success.
[08:27] (Kalomine) put pressure on illegals and tose who house/employ them........I don't care who comes to america or works here........but I want them to be civilians or legal aliens
[08:27] (freetrad3) Gore would be president if not for Bushs plan
[08:28] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: it's still evil.
[08:28] (L0c0) bud`: there are people out there that don't have your scruples?sp?
[08:28] (freetrad3) I prefer Bush with this plan to Gore with ther 2 trillion dollar plan.
[08:28] (L0c0) bud`: they're the reasons there needs to be a law. common sense says "don't do it"
[08:28] (Gosseyn) could someone please give Revanch the boot? I tire of his Franken-esque bloviation.
[08:28] (freetrad3) there was no way this plan would not be passed one way or the other, seniors were demanding it and had the votes to get it.
[08:28] (freetrad3) Its the downside to living in a democrac
[08:28] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: pardon my choice of words, but SCREW the oldsters.
[08:29] (L0c0) bud`: but then agian, renters running out on rent isn't just done by illegals. i've had to go w/ my friend to track down former renters that have done that (alwys fun)
[08:29] (freetrad3) but we are in a democracy so we have no choice, those with the power can force the issues. So when they force them you want capitalists designing it or socialists ?
[08:29] (bud`) L0c0 did you hear, a senior cop got shot, they caught the suspect, bu no idea who the hell he is, has some 5 different forms of id all diff. numbers
[08:29] (PickleWk) Revanch: However you want to characterize it, Morris continues to defend Clinton's presidency while at most criticise him over his personal life. Meanwhile he excoriates Hillary as a dangerous socialist. That's not what a Fox News droid would do, but it is what a moderate Democrat who worked close to Hillary might do.
[08:29] (bud`) damn lemmee find the story
[08:29] (L0c0) bud`: an illegal?
[08:29] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: who was it that said, when the voting public realizes that they can raid the Treasury -- and their neighbors' wallets -- to enrich themselves, the end of the Republic is nigh? Well, here's proof.
[08:30] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: but it's NOT a "capitalist" solution. it's still a horribly statist, horribly intrusive, horribly expensive "solution" to a non-problem.
[08:30] (Revanch) PickleWk - I think he does so dishonestly. I really don't think he is the least bit trustworthy.
[08:30] (L0c0) bud`; i heard about it, the constable out in SC. Bailey i think.
[08:30] (bud`) L0c0 yah
[08:30] (L0c0) bud`: last i'd heard they'd found a shallow grave and believed it was him
[08:30] (L0c0) but i hadn't heard about suspect
[08:30] (freetrad3) Goss, Well then we are at the end. because they have figured it out! ;)
[08:30] (bud`) they caught the suspect within hours.. 5 diff social security numbers
[08:30] (L0c0) psh
[08:30] (L0c0) probably an illegal
[08:31] (PickleWk) Revanch: Well, I think he does so honestly, based on what Hillary says. And I think he's no rabid rightwinger, based on his apologies for Bill. That makes him more trustworthy to me than some ideologue.
[08:31] (Revanch) Gosseyn - What do you think the Baby Boomer generation intends to do, and in large part, is already doing?
[08:31] (L0c0) bud`: but they'll let him go after he says that he was just here to do the work that americans dont' want to do
[08:31] (freetrad3) Going to my office, brb
[08:31] (Gosseyn) Revanch: and you're looking forward to it, ain'tcha?
[08:31] (PickleWk) He's clearly not ideologically-driven. He may well be driven by greed, but I don't think so; I think he's geniunely afraid of Hillary.
[08:32] (Revanch) PickleWk - fair enough. I can see your reasoning, and i'd but stock in that myself if Dick Morris didn't come off as such a slimey son of a bitch.
[08:32] (Revanch) put, rather.
[08:32] (Revanch) Gosseyn - no, i hate baby boomers.
[08:32] (L0c0) brb, gonna take a shower and hope the cable guy shows up before noon
[08:32] (bud`) L0c0 doubt they'll let him go
[08:33] (Gosseyn) and you hate baby boomers why? Because they're materialistic, because they've taken everything before you have a chance to get your piece of the action? LOL
[08:33] (bud`) L0c0 cable guy will show up soon as you squat to take a shit. its just how it goes
[08:33] (Revanch) While we're on the issue of healthcare and any potential for making it universal or what not....You may not have noticed but a lot of major American corporations are now getting behind the idea of socialization of healthcare.
[08:34] (bud`) a lot = 2? 5?
[08:35] (freetrad3) bach
[08:35] (bud`) in my county the corps love donating to the charitable clinics. good advertising, and the community wins
[08:35] (Gosseyn) Revanch: of course they are -- they don't have to pay the huge legacy costs if healthcare is nationalized.
[08:35] (bud`) anheaiser busch donated enough anyone in the community can get healthcare if they qualify, typical sliding scale
[08:35] (Gosseyn) Where's the downside for corporations not having to pay for health insurance.
[08:36] (Gosseyn) for them, I mean?
[08:36] (Gosseyn) this isn't exactly rocket science, though it might be beyond your ability to grasp, Revanch.
[08:36] (Gosseyn) :)
[08:36] (bud`) whole arguments dumb because you will never acknowledge locally funded or charitable programs that treat millions a day
[08:36] (Revanch) Pickle - I watched the YouTube. she's not promising to sieze the "assets" of Oil Companies for "state use" but rather is saying she will take the extraordinary profits of oil companies for very specfic use for alternative energy.
[08:37] (freetrad3) I dont like socialism, but medicare is paid for by pay checks. Its part of your 15% deduction. Seniors demanded it, they have the votes, they got it. The question was a 2 trillion democratic socialist plan or a .5 trillion Republicans socialist plan which utilizes capitalist forces and free market competitition for its implementation and use and its a program which last I saw had 80% approval by seniors and 90% coverage now.
[08:37] (PickleWk) Revanch: In other words, she'll take their assets for state use.
[08:37] (freetrad3) Which is phenomenal coverage in a free country.
[08:37] (Revanch) PickleWk - profits are not "assets"
[08:37] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: Pffft. No matter how you paint it, it's still a socialist program, and a step down an increasingly slippery slope.
[08:37] (freetrad3) The lesson is if politics is going to demand a solution we dont like, then lets control the solution.
[08:37] (Gosseyn) Revanch: Umm, wrong.
[08:37] (Revanch) She's not nationalizing oil production.
[08:37] (PickleWk) Revanch: Yes, actually, they are.
[08:38] (freetrad3) We cant stop it so lets craft it with the best buisness minds and capitalist thinkers.
[08:38] (Gosseyn) Revanch: Profits ARE assets, as anyone with even a basic knowledge of accounting knows.
[08:38] (PickleWk) Or at least, they become that after costs are settled.
[08:38] (freetrad3) Which excludes the Democratic party
[08:38] (Revanch) PickleWk - furthermore, this quote doesn't elaborate on the how, which i'm quite certain would be a special taxation, not a "siezure"
[08:38] (Streaker) im looking for a word, you look in the mirror and realize its you, humans can do it, some animals can, some cant
[08:38] (patch6) http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10292643 - Pentagon considers staying in Iraq "for decades"
[08:38] (freetrad3) l0c0, that bill to make it illegal to rent to illegals was denied by a federal judge ;) I knew it would be.
[08:38] (PickleWk) Revanch: "Special taxation" is seizure.
[08:38] (freetrad3) It was obvious
[08:39] (Gosseyn) of course, profits are usually plowed back into the business as retained earnings, though some is paid out as dividends, and some might be used to repurchase treasury stock, for example.
[08:39] (bud`) HAHA Actual words of some LA speaker colorado school district paid to come educate kids "I'm going to encourage you to have sex, and I'm going to encourage you to use drugs appropriately. And why I am going to take that position is because you're going to do it anyway."
[08:39] (Gosseyn) PickleWk: Looks like someone considers a reduction in taxation to be an "increase in government costs". :)
[08:40] (PickleWk) Revanch: Repackaging what she wants to do in more comfortable jargon doesn't change what it is.
[08:40] (bud`) he may have a point but some parents are upset they paid for this guy
[08:40] (patch6) bud` how old were the kids
[08:40] (Revanch) PickleWk - Well you can play loose with semantics, but if its legal, its legal, and the government has the ability to regulate and tax public corporations, so any profits-taxation would be in order.
[08:40] (PickleWk) Though that might work with the typical idiot voter.
[08:40] (gr0mit) patch6: why else would they build bases with 30 year life spans
[08:40] (bud`) patch6 hs
[08:40] (patch6) gr0mit, it's worth bringing up again
[08:40] (PickleWk) Revanch: I'm not the one playing loose with semantics. She says what she wants to do. I'm saying what she said.
[08:40] (gr0mit) true
[08:41] (patch6) the dod's in it for the long run
[08:41] (Gosseyn) Excuse me? Profits are already taxed -- it's called INCOME.
[08:41] (Rebec) Gosseyn lol
[08:41] (Revanch) Pickle - she's not elaborating on the specifics of what and how. You're demagogueing here.
[08:41] (Gosseyn) Or do you suggest that if a firm is earning "unreasonable profits", they need to be taxed AGAIN on those "unreasonable profits"? Are you fucking HIGH?
[08:41] (PickleWk) Revanch: The fact that it's "legal" for her to seize the property of oil companies for state use doesn't make it right. It makes her a miserable socialist and a clear and present danger to America as we know it.
[08:42] (freetrad3) If the bush tax cuts arent extended its going to put high pressure on the economy to go into recession.
[08:42] (Gosseyn) Who determines what constitutes "unreasonable profits", anyway?
[08:42] (Rebec) gosseyn people who don't get them
[08:42] (Gosseyn) some socialist demagogue on the floor of the House?
[08:42] (Revanch) PickleWk - And if a majority of americans support her plans and vote her into office, what do you think ?
[08:42] (US-Male) it's not even legal unless a law is passed and signed into law, or a veto is over-ridden
[08:42] (Gosseyn) Rebec: screw THAT.
[08:42] (Rebec) Gosseyn for real
[08:42] (Rebec) hi Rev
[08:42] (Revanch) hi
[08:43] (Eeyore) hey Rebec
[08:43] (Gosseyn) A majority of Americans DON'T support "her plans". Hitlery has about as much likelihood of becoming President as Fritz Mondale did.
[08:43] (allan5oh) FT.... so then how do you cut the record deficit?
[08:43] (allan5oh) pull out of iraq?
[08:43] (Rebec) hey eeyore
[08:44] (Gosseyn) "the record deficit". LOL. We have another seminar caller here.
[08:44] (allan5oh) ??
[08:44] (PickleWk) Revanch: That America is fucked.
[08:44] (freetrad3) 2 most likely things to harm the economy A) No extension of the Bush tax cuts B) no status quo, or immigration plan which provides plenty of workers.. Someone asked me last night how many is too many. Well like the Cato institute said, the Free Market will determine that, if there are no jobs thats too many and they wont hang around, none hangs around when there is no work.
[08:44] (freetrad3) allan the deficit has been going down in spades.
[08:44] (Gosseyn) it's not even a "record deficit" in terms of dollar amount. As a percentage of GDP, it's hardly a "record deficit".
[08:44] (Revanch) Gosseyn - We shall see. I think a lot of people like you completely underestimate this country's desire for real change after 8 years of George Bush's miserable failures. That's what smarts so much: George Bush has made Hillary Clinton that much more electable.
[08:44] (Kalomine) so our choices in nov of 08 will more than likely be RINO Giuliani or Hillary?
[08:45] (US-Male) we've been fucked before. The nation would survive a Hillary presidency
[08:45] (Gosseyn) BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
[08:45] (Gosseyn) Hitlery. Electable.
[08:45] (Gosseyn) Oh. My.
[08:45] (Gosseyn) *giggle*
[08:45] (freetrad3) Its been going down after the second largest stock market deflation in history. (Clinton deflation). The Republican candidates had a smart answer, DOnt rehire government employees.
[08:45] (freetrad3) Cut depts 5% across the board.
[08:45] (freetrad3) or 10%
[08:45] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: I suggest... 25%.
[08:45] (freetrad3) or wiser yet selectively cut depts which are inefficient or uneeded.
[08:46] (freetrad3) Goss, that would be too much shock to the economy.
[08:46] (allan5oh) is everyone else getting PCBD?
[08:46] (OldSchool) and triple military funding =x
[08:46] (freetrad3) The economy is like a huge oil freightor, you have to turn it gently and slowly.. But steadily.
[08:46] (PickleWk) US-Male: America would survive a Hillary Presidency, but it would not come out unscathed, especially with a Democrat congress. Medical care would be socialised. Guns would be banned. Taxes would be raised, and freedom in general would be severely eroded. She must be opposed at all costs, even if that means supporting the likes of Giuliani.
[08:46] (freetrad3) If you do anything to the market overnight it sends it into chaos and dysfunction.
[08:46] (freetrad3) So 25% is fine, over time ;)
[08:46] (OldSchool) guns woud be banned lol
[08:46] (OldSchool) such alarmism
[08:47] (OldSchool) you know, the 2nd amendment still exists and always will
[08:47] (OldSchool) Just you may have a problem if you want to buy drum clips for your machine gun
[08:47] (PickleWk) The Second Amendment has rarely stopped the Democrats from abrogating gun rights in America.
[08:47] (US-Male) Pickle: I don't know if she could pull all that off -- chances are, if she is elected, then she would probably lose COngress in 2 years just like her husband did
[08:47] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: so reduce budgets and staffing 5% per year. Shit, it works for corporate America.
[08:47] (Revanch) PickleWk - on a philosophical level, do you believe, as Gosseyn does, that a person only deserves the healthcare that they can afford?
[08:47] (freetrad3) Thats why the fair tax wont work, its too radical a change and it would send the markets into turmoil, continued reform of the existing system and more tax cuts are the answer.. Slow and steady as she goes.
[08:47] (freetrad3) ;)
[08:48] (allan5oh) better yet, outsource all government jobs!
[08:48] (PickleWk) Revanch: Yep.
[08:48] (US-Male) Bill C. had eight years -- I don't know that Hillary is any more of a gun-grabber than BIll
[08:48] (freetrad3) Outsourceing isnt a bad idea.
[08:48] (Gosseyn) Revanch: Do you believe, on a practical level, that it's right to seize from those who produce to give to those who do not and will not?
[08:48] (freetrad3) the USA can not fuck itself enough workers to support the economy
[08:48] (Revanch) PickleWk - Ok. Including minors ?
[08:48] (freetrad3) thats why we have illegals and its why we outsource to India
[08:48] (freetrad3) SO outsourcing is a fine idea.
[08:48] (PickleWk) Revanch: No, they deserve what their legal guardians can afford them.
[08:48] (freetrad3) Or americans need to start having 4 or 5 children each
[08:49] (Gosseyn) Revanch: *pffft* Invoke "the children", as usual, to support your socialism. Nice.
[08:49] (freetrad3) utilize existing world labor resources or make our own.
[08:49] (freetrad3) But making babies into adults takes time.
[08:49] (Rebec) gosseyn you have to like shriek it
[08:49] (US-Male) PickleWk: But I don't see Giuliani as all that bad. The only issue he's really "questionable" on is gun rights
[08:49] (Gosseyn) Revanch: Do you believe, on a practical level, that it's right to seize from those who produce to give to those who do not and will not?
[08:49] (Revanch) FreeTrad3 - You're heavily distorting here. We don't outsource because of a shortage of domestic skill. we outsource because its half the cost.
[08:49] (PickleWk) US-Male: That's bad enough.
[08:49] (allan5oh) its been proven time and time again, government cannot handle the plight of poor children
[08:49] (freetrad3) Revanch : Both and both help the US consumer and Economy
[08:50] (US-Male) Pickle: reality dictates certain choices. There are pro-gun candidates, but they have other issues
[08:50] (Revanch) PickleWk - so your answer is effectively 'yes' because if said guardian cannot afford it, said minor doesn't deserve it. so your stance is the same.
[08:50] (freetrad3) outsourcing level 1 tech support for dell probably knocks $50 = $100 off the price of your computer.
[08:50] (Gosseyn) Revanch: bullshit. American universities are producing fewer engineers and computer scientists than are needed to fill the positions that firms need to fill.
[08:50] (OldSchool) yeah, 4-5 children each, remember the last question about health care? =x
[08:50] (Eeyore) Gosseyn what the hell i feel like playing devils advocate today. Ill make that case if you like. public parks are a good idea. they make quality of life better for all residents of a city. but they are in fact stealing from those who produce and giving to those who do not,.
[08:50] (US-Male) I think Giuliani is smart enough not to do more gun-grabbing on a antional level
[08:50] (freetrad3) Well My point is simple. The free market determines labor needs, not bureacrats or socialists.
[08:50] (Gosseyn) Revanch: as well as other highly-skilled fields. Students today, on the whole, don't want to work hard to get ahead in life.
[08:51] (US-Male) *national
[08:51] (Gosseyn) Eeyore: big difference between building public accommodations used by all, and redistributing wealth directly.
[08:51] (freetrad3) If the us demands 20k workers and cant get them they will outsource or use illegals.
[08:52] (Revanch) FreeTrad3 - yes, and free markets want CHEAP labor, which is why they'll hire an indian programmer to do a job for half of what it would cost to hire an american. That has NOTHING to do with the supply of labor.
[08:52] (godfist) who can blame them in an insane society such as ours that requires you risking your health on a daily basis and probably spending the last of your days in a hospital in total misery because the company you worked for overworked you and was understaffed?
[08:52] (OldSchool) No, if a company wants cheap labor against laws to be anti competitive
[08:52] (Gosseyn) godfist: blah, blah, blah. Get over it.
[08:52] (Gosseyn) Revanch: No, it has EVERYTHING to do with the labor supply.
[08:52] (Tailor) Revanch, maybe if the American programmer would work for a realistic wage there wouldn't be a problem.
[08:52] (freetrad3) Old School, the labor is NEEDED
[08:52] (US-Male) likeRudy said in the debate "Rudy McRomney would be a pretty good candidate" , although I don't think he realized it means we take out his bad parts and replace them with good parts from other candidates
[08:52] (Eeyore) Gosseyn in some ways its the same thing. but I agree yeah it is difrent. my point is, quality of life has to do with more than mere available cash. spend time in latin america for proof. its better to be middle class in the US or Canada than rich in venezuela in many ways as you have a better quality of life when things are SAFE..
[08:52] (PickleWk) Revanch: As you wish. At any rate, what people deserve isn't the be-all and end-all to me. There are certain things that must be done by municipalities to maintain a minimum level of public safety, so I do believe that they should haul the severely ill or injured off to hospital on the public dime.
[08:52] (freetrad3) its nothing about price.. well price is a matterbut I can discuss that seperately
[08:53] (Gosseyn) Indian programmers work for a realistic (on a global scale) wage. American programmers do NOT.
[08:53] (Eeyore) and Gosseyn they are safe because we redistribute wealth to buy services like police
[08:53] (freetrad3) First of all the Labor is NEEDED or it wouldnt exist
[08:53] (US-Male) if you could take the good parts from several Repub candidates and make a Frankenstein, sure it should be better
[08:53] (OldSchool) no, price is the main issue
[08:53] (Revanch) Tailor - "realistic" wage? As in working for half the domestic going rate?
[08:53] (Gosseyn) Eeyore: again you miss the point.
[08:53] (freetrad3) I remember times of recession when I recall illegals going back to mexcio
[08:53] (freetrad3) you want illegals to go back to mexico ?
[08:53] (Tailor) Revanch, if that's what it takes.
[08:53] (freetrad3) Create a huge recession in the USA
[08:53] (Eeyore) Gosseyn no Im not missing it, Im expanidng it to an area of ... 'questionable relvence' :*)
[08:53] (freetrad3) where there is no economic activity and no jobs.
[08:53] (freetrad3) they will leave
[08:53] (DeDannan) maybe if there was a 'realistic' cost of living in the US...but that's coming, apparently
[08:53] (Gosseyn) Revanch: get over it. Or do you favor erecting trade barriers, engaging in economic isolationism in the name of "fair trade" and "living wages"?
[08:54] (freetrad3) There is a fucking Labor DEMAND IN america which keeps our productivity high.
[08:54] (freetrad3) and if you dont feel those jobs the whole economy loses MONEY
[08:54] (freetrad3) and we become a poorer country
[08:54] (PickleWk) Revanch: But that doesn't mean anyone "deserves" that treatment, and it certainly doesn't mean that the federal or even state levels of government should be getting involved in that activity.
[08:54] (freetrad3) The cost of living in the USA is much lower than europe beause of our free market policies.
[08:55] (Revanch) Pickle - Don't you think that that "hauling the severely injured or ill off to the hospital on the public dime" is UNGODLY expensive? And that we're paying for it on the back-end, which makes things worse? You admit that there should be standards, but your preferred choice is less efficient, less predictable, and more costly.
[08:55] (Gosseyn) "fair trade" = leftist codeword for tariffs and "barriers against unfair foreign producers"
[08:55] (freetrad3) avg households benefit from the trade imbalance and other things nativists deem dangerous is $4000.00 a household.
[08:55] (freetrad3) thats an equivalent of a $4000 a household raise according to Adam Smith
[08:55] (Gosseyn) Revanch: I suggest letting those who are severely injured or ill, who haven't purchased health insurance, either seek charity care, or curse God and die.
[08:56] (PickleWk) Revanch: Not really, no. I think it's more expensive, and more to the point, a gross violation of individual liberty, to socialise the healthcare system.
[08:56] (freetrad3) We pay less for goods the same goods that they pay for in say Germany
[08:56] (Gosseyn) But, hey, that's just my opinion. You see, I'm a compassionate conservative. :)
[08:56] (e-Hernick) in other words, with no wal-marts or chinese suppliers.. retail prices shoot way up?
[08:56] (e-Hernick) sounds reasonable.
[08:56] (e-Hernick) down with fair trade!
[08:56] (Revanch) Gosseyn - Yes we're ware of your backward position on this.
[08:56] (godfist) yea you work for years getting a degrere in the mental health field then find out you get paid shit because of overregulatoin by the state and federal governemnts...who wants a public service job anymore unless they're willing to sacrifice everything they have for it which is crazy in itself
[08:56] (Gosseyn) Revanch: not "backward", socialist tool. Realistic.
[08:56] (freetrad3) YOu can either believe in proven economic principles or ideologies like marxism and mini ideologies based on the way the market ought to work, instead of the way it does work.
[08:57] (freetrad3) but if you want to face reality the system is self regulating and it works well.
[08:57] (Revanch) PickleWrk - do you realize what Emergency Room care costs local, state, and by extension, the Federal Government ?
[08:57] (freetrad3) Capitalism.
[08:57] * Gosseyn hands Revanch a copy of "Wealth of Nations".
[08:57] (freetrad3) Capitalism has no ideology
[08:57] (Forbin`) Paula Abdul broke her nose over the weekend after she fell while trying to avoid stepping on her Chihuahua, her publicist said Monday.
[08:57] (godfist) the system is not self regulating freetrade, not now at least
[08:57] * Forbin` http://www.abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=3199455
[08:57] (Revanch) Pickle - how do you propose to control those costs? it IS more expensive.
[08:57] (freetrad3) it simply allows free people to make free choices.
[08:57] (godfist) huge corporations have bought and paid for all our congressmen and senators on both sides of the isle
[08:57] * Gosseyn also hands Revanch a copy of Friedrich Hayek's "The Fatal Conceit: The Errors of Socialism".
[08:57] * Eeyore hands Gosseyn a copy of Moral Calculations, the book that actually extends wealth of nations
[08:57] (Gosseyn) godfist: spare us the anticorporate whingeing.
[08:58] (freetrad3) where they buy goods, without expensive tarriffs, where they higher labor. $$30 an hour to cut your lawn or $10
[08:58] (PickleWk) Revanch: Yes, and I also realize that there's no "extension" involved to the federal government if they would just stay within their constitutional bounds of spending.
[08:58] (Gosseyn) Forbin`: betcha she was drunk... again. :)
[08:58] (godfist) you see you tell someone the truth and they accuse you of being anti-corporate
[08:58] (Forbin`) werd
[08:58] (freetrad3) Thats btw $20 saved which can be spent on american rip off companies like star bucks.
[08:58] (Gosseyn) godfist: No, you ARE anti-corporate.
[08:58] (freetrad3) Or if your hungry Safeway.. (Not a rip off)
[08:58] * e-Hernick puts forth Keynes "The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money" and watches as people cower in fear
[08:58] (godfist) we independents in this country that dont subscribe to the bs spewn out by both political parties know better
[08:58] (freetrad3) e-H, fully discredited.
[08:58] (Gosseyn) Here's a crazy idea -- why not simply refuse service to those who have no insurance?
[08:59] (Revanch) Gosseyn - so if your neighbor has an infectious virus, and cannot afford treatment, you're simply okay with him possibly dying of influenza?
[08:59] (e-Hernick) let the anti-keynesfeast begin!
[08:59] (Eeyore) e-Hernick Keynes, isnt he the guy that fucked all of north america with his debt financing?
[08:59] (patch6) punishing the whole for the crimes or misgivings of a few is what leads to a collectivist regime
[08:59] (e-Hernick) Eeyore: yes, but even today politicians like him and what he said
[08:59] (rondd) revanch that neighbor can go to any country hospital
[08:59] (PickleWk) Gosseyn: Because people dying on city streets poses a public safety risk. They have to be hauled off somewhere to die.
[08:59] (rondd) and they do
[08:59] (Gosseyn) Revanch: why not? I get influenza vaccine yearly. He can, too, for $10 or $15 at the local CVS mini-clinic.
[08:59] (rondd) every day
[08:59] (freetrad3) Keynes was a crazy bi-sexual who didnt even get out of bed till age 12 because he was a sickly child, then he became a megalomaniac claiming to be saving capitalism from itself.
[08:59] (freetrad3) instead he tied countries economies down so they couldnt grow.
[08:59] (rondd) I meant to say county not country
[08:59] (Gosseyn) PickleWk: so let the garbage haulers wear biohazard suits. :)
[08:59] (Revanch) Pickle - so local municipalities alone should bear the cost of Emergency Room care ?
[09:00] (freetrad3) Rondd, Same is true in california, Anyone who has a medical need but no money can go to a county hospital.
[09:00] (Eeyore) e-Hernick funny how exonomists dont like him as much as the guys who want to work on other peoples money do
[09:00] (rondd) Freetrade3 "ITS THE SYSTEM"
[09:00] (Gosseyn) PickleWk: and claiming that "the ill will die on city streets" is pure fantasy. Most of them will die quietly in the comfort of their squalid little government-subsidized Section 8 housing.
[09:00] (PickleWk) Revanch: Ideally, yes. If states want to get involved that's their business, I suppose. The federal government should in no way, shape, or form be involved.
[09:00] (freetrad3) rondd hehe
[09:00] (gopp) Pickle correct
[09:00] (gopp) it a state issue
[09:01] (US-Male) I do think HIllary would try to "fix" healthcare again, and probably fuck it up royally
[09:01] (gopp) Gosseyn correct
[09:01] (Revanch) Gosseyn - Again, he can't afford it. Are you simply okay with a person carrying and transmitting a contagion because you think that they only deserve health services they can pay for?
[09:01] (gopp) it the rent control
[09:01] (gopp) Revanch yes he can
[09:01] (US-Male) except that it would take her some time to do it
[09:01] (gopp) if he worked fo rit
[09:01] (Gosseyn) Revanch: Absolutely.
[09:01] (rondd) revanch did you see what I posted ?
[09:01] (gopp) Revanch if you work two jobs
[09:01] (gopp) you can pay for it
[09:01] (US-Male) if Hillary won, you can bet the healthcare bill is already drafted this time
[09:01] (gopp) Revanch also take resposbliity on your health
[09:01] (Revanch) Pickle - you do realize that there is absolutely no way the local governments can bear that cost, and would absolutely have to restrict access, right?
[09:01] (gopp) Revanch you need your healthcare
[09:01] (rondd) revanch did you see what I posted ?
[09:02] (freetrad3) Its like I said.. Medicare D.. .5 trillion and heavy capitalist involvement or 2 trillion and completley socialized with government bureacracies which look the welfare dept.
[09:02] (gopp) not taken care of by goverment
[09:02] (freetrad3) Evils
[09:02] (gopp) Revanch don't be unrealstic
[09:02] (freetrad3) But the better of evils
[09:02] (Gosseyn) Revanch: there is NO right to healthcare. If you can't afford it on one paycheck, either get a second job, or get a better job with health benefits. Don't expect the taxpayers to pick up your tab.
[09:02] (gopp) Revanch take care your darn health
[09:02] (US-Male) A new Dem president in 2008 knows that she/he only has 2 years before losing COngress
[09:02] (gopp) Revanch you have no rights under natural law to healthcare
[09:02] (e-Hernick) I hear Hillary is in league with Keynes. She keeps "An Open Letter to President Roosevelt" at her bedside, acting as though it had been addressed to her.
[09:02] (Revanch) Gosseyn - well not only is your view backward, its also goddamn stupid and works against your own interests, but that doesn't surprise me that you think that way.
[09:02] (gopp) Revanch it fact
[09:02] (PickleWk) Revanch: Right. What makes you think I want unrestricted access, being as I am obviously opposed to socialism?
[09:03] (freetrad3) Lets be realistic, if he has health problems someone is going to pick up the tab... So its not like he will be denied health care whether he deserved to be denied or not.
[09:03] (gopp) Revanch why are you name calling
[09:03] (rondd) ok revanch remain ignorant
[09:03] (e-Hernick) Gosseyn: in the civilized world, it is expected that everybody has access to emergency medical care.
[09:03] (gopp) Revanch why are you name calling???
[09:03] (freetrad3) University medical schools often will take patients..
[09:03] (Eeyore) i might add, the issue is one of medial posebilities. once upon a time with illness, we just died. now we have options. you can sell your car house or other stuff and buy medical tech or you can stay sick or die. I dont see why the posebility of medical solutions means you are owed them free.
[09:03] (gopp) Revanch Gosseyn - well not only is your view backward, its also goddamn stupid
[09:03] (gopp) freetrad3 yes and for low cost
[09:03] (PickleWk) Only those who are so poor and ill that they have to be hauled off as a matter of public safety should have that access. Everyone else can pay for their own healthcare, or not.
[09:03] (gopp) Revanch " Gosseyn - well not only is your view backward, its also goddamn stupid"
[09:03] (gopp) Revanch why did you name call him
[09:03] (gopp) with out backing it up
[09:04] (freetrad3) hehehe
[09:04] (gopp) it fine if you think he is stupid, but why is he
[09:04] (e-Hernick) If only for a sanitary perspective. Society would rather have the dying orderly walk into public hospitals to be given free substandard care which may prolong their life, and if it doesn't, at least they'll be put in the morgue on short order.
[09:04] (gopp) Revanch you been here allday
[09:04] (Revanch) PickleWk - i mean restricted Emergency Room access. Basically you want the Emergency Room to furnish as an end-of-life hospice, because treating people for serious injury or disease is far too expensive for city governments. So thats just where people will go to die, if they can't afford health insurance.
[09:04] (gopp) so far you stated nothing
[09:04] (e-Hernick) It's far better to provide free emergency medical services to the poor than to let them die on the streets. They should have the dignity of dying in a hospital.
[09:04] (OldSchool) Because in a modern civilized society, we all benefit as a whole when we have a healthy population. Just as we benefit from having an educated population. It is an investement in the nation
[09:04] (freetrad3) e, Free Sub standared care is what they get in single payer systems or socialized systems.
[09:04] (US-Male) OldSchool: cash pays 5%, can this investment do better ?
[09:05] (gopp) OldSchool so take care of your health
[09:05] (gopp) OldSchool so take care of your health
[09:05] (freetrad3) our health care is socialized make no mistake about it but the components of health care are free market and private.
[09:05] (gopp) OldSchool don't fuck it up
[09:05] (e-Hernick) US-Male: my US dollars used to be worth much more than they are today
[09:05] (rondd) Here in DFW if you cannot afford healtcare you goto Parkland, same hospital Kennedy was taken too
[09:05] (gopp) OldSchool it not our job to police other healthcare
[09:05] (rondd) Imagine that
[09:05] (Revanch) OldSchool - Gosseyn takes the opposite view: The poor deserve to die
[09:05] (US-Male) e-Hernick: you should have sold when you bought.... and then buy now
[09:05] (godfist) yea there's a democracy for you..."Well its too expensive to care for the extremely sick and dying people so lets just let them die and not pay for it" and then they turn right around and try to say they're still compassionate
[09:05] (freetrad3) The doctors, nurses, equipment, drugs etc, Most hospitals are government paid or subsidized
[09:05] (gopp) Revanch who said die
[09:05] (gopp) Revanch who said die
[09:05] (gopp) when did we say die
[09:05] (gopp) Revanch thier catholic charities
[09:05] (gopp) and thier is private univeristy hospitals
[09:05] (gopp) that do it for cheap or free
[09:06] (Revanch) godfist - yeah, its ridiculous
[09:06] (gopp) so your bs argument is bs
[09:06] (gopp) Revanch do you know surival of the fittest
[09:06] (freetrad3) Let me rephrase that lest it be read wrong
[09:06] (gopp) I tought you supported drawin
[09:06] (US-Male) can't The Poor can be made into Soylent Green?
[09:06] (gopp) Revanch take care of your damn health
[09:06] (gopp) Revanch stop eating junk food
[09:06] (OldSchool) conservatives so to have absolutely no empathy or concern for anyone but themselves
[09:06] (gopp) do exrice
[09:06] (gopp) Revanch stop feeding bad things to your health
[09:06] (freetrad3) The doctors, nurses, equipment, drugs etc are private. Most hospitals are government paid or subsidized
[09:06] (gopp) OldSchool that why we support charities
[09:06] (US-Male) rich Democrats make good Soylent Green too
[09:07] (gopp) OldSchool that why we donate to charities
[09:07] (gopp) more then democarts
[09:07] (freetrad3) OldSchool, I have sympathy
[09:07] (freetrad3) I support a safety net
[09:07] (gopp) I have sympathy
[09:07] (godfist) survival of the fittest in a capitalistic society really means survival of the most corrupt and greedy since they are stronger and have the power to stomp out competitiona and thus survive! wow can't believe i didn't realize this sooner!
[09:07] (freetrad3) I do
[09:07] (PickleWk) Revanch: Well, yes. Those who don't purchase healthcare for themselves don't "deserve" any treatment beyond what the municipality deems necessary for maintaining a minimum standard of public safety.
[09:07] (Revanch) FreeTrade - do you believe that a person only deserves the healthcare that they can afford?
[09:07] (e-Hernick) gopp: should hospitals wait before they have insurance confirmation before they perform emergency medical care on somebody?
[09:07] (freetrad3) I dont want it abused, I dont want the "system" fucked up. But noone should die in america for lack of money
[09:07] (gopp) e-Hernick when do they wait
[09:07] (gopp) no hospitals waits
[09:07] (gopp) e-Hernick on 911 no hospital wiated
[09:07] (US-Male) I sympathize with Democrats for their confusion.
[09:08] (gopp) waited
[09:08] (PickleWk) If that's all they deem necessary, then that's all you get. Tough luck. When you're reincarnated, make better choices in life, like budgeting for health insurance.
[09:08] (e-Hernick) gopp: so you agree that hospitals should perform emergency medical care on anybody, without checking if they are covered, or able to pay?
[09:08] (gopp) e-Hernick stop with this cuba liek healthcare
[09:08] (freetrad3) Conservatives will spend 100s of millions to stop abortions. Noone should die for lack of money.
[09:08] (gopp) e-Hernick they do
[09:08] (gopp) I don't have to agree it fact
[09:08] (gopp) they do
[09:08] (e-Hernick) gopp: good, and they should.
[09:08] (freetrad3) And they fact is they dont.. they can get treatment already
[09:08] (gopp) e-Hernick so what yoru beef
[09:08] (gopp) e-Hernick so what your point
[09:08] (e-Hernick) Does anybody here disagree that hospitals should provide free emergency medical care to anybody?
[09:08] (Revanch) picklewk - so a person who could survive or a child that could live a long life through expensive treatment or surgery are doomed to die, because the local municipality cannot afford these procedures. This is essentially what you're saying. They just get a place to die.
[09:08] (gopp) e-Hernick no one does
[09:08] (gopp) that not the argument
[09:08] (e-Hernick) great.
[09:08] (gopp) the argument is no universal healthcare
[09:08] (PickleWk) Revanch: Yes, that's what I'm saying.
[09:08] (freetrad3) e, Free ? Yes I disagree, should they serve everyone ? Yes
[09:09] (icmp) Revanch: Anything else is theft.
[09:09] (gopp) stop changing the subject
[09:09] (e-Hernick) well, we've got universal emergency health care
[09:09] (gopp) Revanch it is theft
[09:09] (e-Hernick) universal health care is the next step
[09:09] (freetrad3) NO a lot of the people who go to ER pay
[09:09] (freetrad3) and they pay a fortune.
[09:09] (gopp) Revanch you have no right to demand me pay for some lack of health concern thus get sick
[09:09] (freetrad3) cost shifting
[09:09] (gopp) Revanch if he has cancer or such
[09:09] (gopp) that fine
[09:09] (freetrad3) they pay for the guy who isnt paying.
[09:09] (gopp) Revanch but some who want a sex change
[09:09] (gopp) operation
[09:09] (gopp) and does it via universal healthcare
[09:09] (gopp) is wrong
[09:09] (e-Hernick) see the unfairness inherent in the system, the poor get off for free while the rich pay for the rest
[09:09] (freetrad3) my last and only ER bill was $1500.00
[09:09] (e-Hernick) it's just like progressive taxation
[09:09] (freetrad3) for a minor thing
[09:10] (freetrad3) I guess that was my 3rd ER
[09:10] (gopp) Revanch it has not worked in canada
[09:10] (US-Male) e-Hernick: why would emergency medical care be free ? It's not currently unless you are destitute
[09:10] (gopp) in europa or in cuba
[09:10] (Revanch) PickleWk - Well at least you're honest about your callousness. It isn't the least bit ironic that you take these views from the benefit of a country with universal medicine.
[09:10] (icmp) e-Hernick: I wouldnt necessarily call it unfair, but it is theft..
[09:10] (freetrad3) Twice in 10 years Istuck my hand in a table saw
[09:10] (e-Hernick) US-Male: well, it's free until they figure out that you *can* pay
[09:10] (freetrad3) and had to have it rebuilt, like the terminator.
[09:10] (freetrad3) hehe
[09:10] (e-Hernick) US-Male: no matter, they don't wait for a confirmation that you can pay before trying to save you
[09:10] (Tailor) our hand or the saw?
[09:10] (Tailor) Your
[09:10] (US-Male) e-Hernick: How about we sell tehir body parts ?
[09:10] (e-Hernick) US-Male: as payment?
[09:10] (freetrad3) My hand ;)
[09:11] (gopp) Revanch thier no arugment for social medince
[09:11] (e-Hernick) US-Male: I'd rather have work camps, honestly
[09:11] (US-Male) e-Hernick: to pay for others
[09:11] (gopp) that has a good outcome
[09:11] (PickleWk) Revanch: If you say so. Personally I find it callous to not give a shit about whose rights you're trampling on in a neverending quest to provide an ever-increasing nannystate to the lazy and stupid.
[09:11] (freetrad3) I was cutting like `50 3/4 x 3/4 cleats
[09:11] (freetrad3) once
[09:11] (gopp) Revanch I find it is theft
[09:11] (rondd) gopp revanch is arguing on baseless accusations
[09:11] (Tailor) I think you should have them mount a saw blade on the end of your arm
[09:11] (gopp) rondd oh
[09:11] (Tailor) Like a modern day hook
[09:11] (US-Male) e-Hernick: they can't really work if they are in emergency medical care
[09:11] (freetrad3) and the other time i was cutting shingles free hand at an angle for corners.
[09:11] (e-Hernick) US-Male: I'm sure we could have a number of health-slaves, who live and work to pay for their health care
[09:11] (rondd) the system does already take care of those that cannot afford healthcare
[09:11] (Tailor) Get a little fuel cell to power it
[09:11] (OldSchool) The problem is access to preventative care. Prevevntative care is FAR cheaper than letting the problem grow to the point that it requires emergency care. If people had access to the more inexpensive care to begin with, then total medical costs would drop
[09:11] (rondd) I have explained how several times, he ignores my post
[09:11] (gopp) rondd I told her that
[09:11] (gopp) twice
[09:11] (e-Hernick) US-Male: once they've been released as "able to work" then they're shipped off to debtor's camps to work off their debts.
[09:11] (gopp) rondd same here
[09:11] (freetrad3) I ended up turning my hands into hamburger, the second time was much worse. dull blade.
[09:11] (gopp) rondd I said catholic charity and
[09:11] (freetrad3) hehehhe
[09:12] (gopp) univeristy do that
[09:12] (US-Male) e-Hernick: Just sell their body parts to people who can afford it. Two birds with one stone
[09:12] (freetrad3) That was 10 or more years ago
[09:12] (freetrad3) I am overdue!
[09:12] (e-Hernick) US-Male: organ trade is against the law!
[09:12] (freetrad3) well about 10 years ago
[09:12] (DeDannan) ah well..enough time wasted today...cheers kids
[09:12] (US-Male) e-Hernick: thusly, we reduce the need for care, and make money all at once
[09:12] (US-Male) e-Hernick: laws can be changed
[09:12] (PickleWk) Revanch: And by the way: In Canada, the federal government isn't involved in public healthcare. The provinces handle the issue.
[09:12] (Tailor) rondd, they can't handle the truth!
[09:12] (gopp) Revanch There isn't a single government agency or division that runs efficiently; if they can't run an office such as the DMV efficiently, how can we expect them to handle something as complex as health care?
[09:12] (e-Hernick) US-Male: we could reduce the need for emergency medical care by providing preventative care to anybody in the USA
[09:13] (Revanch) PickleWk - I think PREVENTATIVE and maintenance medicine is better than back-end treatment, that ends up costing a lot more. I'm for efficiency. you're for an inefficient system whose purpose is to see to it that people die without receiving care that could give them an increase in quality of life.
[09:13] (US-Male) e-Hernick: the preventive care costs too much
[09:13] (e-Hernick) I mean, why treat the emergency when you can see it coming and treat it before it strikes
[09:13] (freetrad3) There are tons of things we could do to better our health care system.. One is to do what Walmart is going to do, and open up clinics in their stores.
[09:13] (US-Male) e-Hernick: why would you be "providing" things to people ?
[09:13] (e-Hernick) so, cost-analysis shows that its better to wait until the actual emergency?
[09:13] (US-Male) e-Hernick: think profits, son !
[09:13] (e-Hernick) it's the government
[09:13] (e-Hernick) there is no such thing as profits
[09:13] (freetrad3) So you go shopping, pay $40 or whatever to fix your cold and get a prescription for $4 at the pharmacy and then go home
[09:13] (freetrad3) all in one place
[09:13] (PickleWk) Revanch: My mistake. You're for callously trampling on people's rights to life, liberty, and property in an unending quest to provide an "efficient" nannystate to the lazy and stupid.
[09:14] (US-Male) e-Hernick: what makes you think govt. is supposed to "provide" stuff ?
[09:14] (OldSchool) e-Hernick: yeah, what financial benfit is there to "helping someone" who needs "medical treatment" I don't get it
[09:14] (Revanch) e-hernick - exactly my question. Pickle's answer is basically: they don't deserve to be healthy if they can't afford it.
[09:14] (freetrad3) Actually I dont know what the final office visit cost will be.
[09:14] (OldSchool) *confused conservative look*
[09:14] (freetrad3) but its a good way to keep ERs from overfilling with minor cases
[09:14] (PickleWk) No, my answer is basically that you have no right to steal from someone to provide for your healthcare just because you can't afford it.
[09:14] (US-Male) e-Hernick: I suggest we grind up the Loony Leftists and make them into Soylent Green
[09:14] (e-Hernick) OldSchool: well, they will pay
[09:14] (e-Hernick) JMK clearly says that building huge statues and pyramids is going to boost the economy, I'm sure that the same will apply to medical care.
[09:14] (Revanch) PickleWk - is there anybody in your family who cannot afford health insurance?
[09:14] (rondd) revanch I did not have insurance till 8 years ago, I am 49. I never had a problem getting healthcare
[09:14] (PickleWk) You don't deserve the right to steal, ever. In fact, you never have that "right".
[09:14] (rondd) I understood the system
[09:15] (freetrad3) THere are free market solutions to health care problems which are real. including cost control.
[09:15] (freetrad3) Competition
[09:15] (Revanch) OH WAIT. you live in Canada, and are the benificiary of a great healthcare system. My mistake.
[09:15] (icmp) Revanch: I DONT have health insurance.. Not entirely because I cant afford it.. and I probably should get some im just lazy. And I oppose Univerisal Health Care.
[09:15] (PickleWk) Revanch: Yes. And they are all in that position because of choices they made in life.
[09:15] (freetrad3) Walmart lowered generics to $4, then Target and several other pharmacies followed.
[09:15] (US-Male) e-Hernick: we'll get destitute Loony Lefties who come for drug overdose treatment. and make them into a fine food source
[09:15] (PickleWk) Revanch: They don't "deserve" free shit because of those choices.
[09:15] (rondd) revanch most canadians do not like canada's healthcare system
[09:15] (Revanch) icmp - Do you know what an MRI costs?
[09:15] (e-Hernick) PickleWk: what about you calling theft? When somebody walks in a hospital, gets treatment, and leaves without paying.. They aren't stealing. The hospital has accepted to treat them. Remember that the hospital is made out of doctors, who have made an oath. Sure, they want to be paid, but they will not refuse to treat people because of their economic status/.
[09:15] (US-Male) after we wash them up of course
[09:16] (freetrad3) Is there ANY copay in canada ?
[09:16] (Jack123) I have low cost healthcare, union benefit
[09:16] (OldSchool) Yeah, loony lefties like Rush Limbaugh
[09:16] (rondd) revanch in canada its pretty difficult to get an MRI
[09:16] (puella) medicaid is available for many.
[09:16] (PickleWk) e-Hernick: I'm talking about taking a dollar away from one person to pay for someone else's healthcare theft.
[09:16] (freetrad3) Yeah I was reading stats on MRIs in Canada compared to the USA its HUGE
[09:16] (icmp) Revanch: Whatever it costs, it's my problem, nobody elses.. And further, the excessive regulation of the health care industry is at least in part (if not entirely) responsible for the obscene costs involved for certain things
[09:16] (PickleWk) being theft, that is.
[09:16] (e-Hernick) PickleWk: well, wouldn't you call that "tax" ?
[09:16] (freetrad3) Manyu many more in the USA
[09:16] (Revanch) rondd - you've long since ceased to be even remotely right about anything.
[09:16] (Rebec) pickle that's what social security is. taking dollars from people to pay income to someone else
[09:16] (Rebec) it's all theft
[09:16] (e-Hernick) PickleWk: is there a tax you wouldn't call "theft"
[09:16] (PickleWk) e-Hernick: Yes, that's another word for it.
[09:16] (freetrad3) Pickle is there any copay at all in Canada ?
[09:16] (rondd) revanch no I am exactly right
[09:17] (US-Male) btw how did Democrats decide that government is supposed to "provide" things for them? Do they have a deep-seated need for a Mommy and Daddy ?
[09:17] (rondd) I will google for you
[09:17] (rondd) sec
[09:17] (US-Male) always seeking that "Provider"
[09:17] (Jack123) the lack
[09:17] (Jack123) of political choices, whether it's republican or democrat, is a result
[09:17] (Jack123) of the current global establishment
[09:17] (freetrad3) Rond is right I researched that very issue within the last 2 weeks
[09:17] (icmp) Jack123: Get used to it. The system is setup that way.
[09:18] (Jack123) I'm used to it
[09:18] (e-Hernick) PickleWk: well, I think that redefining "tax" as "theft" is childish. Both words have meaning, and both words describe concepts that will always happen. Tax is sanctioned by the law, Theft is illegal. That's why we have two words to describe the same concept of somebody taking something back by the threat of force.
[09:18] (PickleWk) e-Hernick: Not really. I do consider taxes used to pay for non-excludable club goods such as infrastructure and military defense somewhat less immoral than taxes used to pay for someone's personal free shit, however.
[09:18] (icmp) So am I.. I just join the majority of the country in abstaining now
[09:18] (freetrad3) Have it bookmarked
[09:18] (rondd) The country’s failure as a technology leader is not due to a lack of spending. Canada spends a lot of money on health care. In fact, when we consider the percentage of GDP spent on health care, Canada is the sixth highest spender in the Organization for Economic and Cooperative Development (OECD), and the fifth highest in actual dollars spent per person. (See table.)
[09:18] (rondd) Despite our record for high spending, relatively few health technologies are available to Canadians. Canada currently ranks a depressing nineteenth in a comparison of 25 OECD countries for MRI availability. A number of countries that spend less than Canada rank higher in the availability of MRI scanners.
[09:18] (rondd) At present, Canada would have to add 161 MRI machines to place sixth on the chart, which would equal its rank in total spending as a percent of GDP. That number leaps to an astonishing 327 MRIs if we wished to place second (leaving out Japan, which has a disproportionately high number of MRI machines).
[09:18] (rondd) These sim
[09:18] (e-Hernick) ah, ok, then you support some takes
[09:18] (PickleWk) e-Hernick: It's not a redefinition. Taking someone's property without their consent is theft.
[09:18] (e-Hernick) PickleWk: well, unless it's a tax
[09:19] (e-Hernick) PickleWk: if it's a tax, it's legal and therefore can't be theft, even if you don't agree with the tax
[09:19] (rondd) Saskatchewan's 22-month wait for an MRI is "almost criminal" says radiologists' association
[09:19] (rondd) Amy Jo Ehman
[09:19] (rondd) Saskatoon
[09:19] (rondd) Saskatchewan is under fire for having the longest waiting time in the country for a diagnostic MRI — a whopping 22 months.
[09:19] (PickleWk) e-Hernick: Well, no. Calling it a tax doesn't change that. However, since government is inevitable, so is some level of the theft known as "taxation".
[09:19] (rondd) should I continue
[09:19] (rondd) ?
[09:19] (PickleWk) That doesn't mean we should see it as something else, or see government as some sort of moral entity.
[09:19] (freetrad3) [edit] Technology
[09:19] (Jack123) We could do away with the personal federal income tax
[09:19] (freetrad3) A major difference between the Canadian and American health spending is on investment in technology. For example, in terms of medical equipment such as MRI scanners per million people, America ranks first in the world with 19.5 per million people; Canada ranked 13th, with 4.6 MRI scanners per million people. In terms of CT scanners per million, America ranked third in the world with 29.5 per million while Canada was ranked 16th, with 10.3 per million [7].
[09:19] (rondd) I have had 6 mri's in the last 3 years...longest wait....1 week
[09:20] (rondd) most same day
[09:20] (freetrad3) Rondd, I had a long wait for a non urgent MRI, 2 weeks
[09:20] (freetrad3) hehe
[09:20] (e-Hernick) PickleWk: I'd argue that the scum of corruption could be called theft, but that vast majority of the government income is achieved through tax rather than theft, and I see both as different concepts.
[09:20] (gopp) Revanch For example, in terms of medical equipment such as MRI scanners per million people, America ranks first in the world with 19.5 per million people; Canada ranked 13th, with 4.6 MRI scanners per million people.
[09:20] (rondd) revanch the truth is you do not know what your talking about son
[09:20] (rondd) I work in managed care
[09:20] (gopp) Revanch are you even from canada
[09:20] (rondd) I do
[09:20] (gopp) rondd my sister is a pharmacist
[09:20] (gopp) and she looked at both
[09:20] (gopp) in detail
[09:20] (freetrad3) Like I said I researched that in the last 2 weeks
[09:20] (gopp) and she say our system is still better
[09:21] (icmp) e-Hernick: Tax IS theft.
[09:21] (e-Hernick) War IS Peace.
[09:21] (freetrad3) 5/22/actually
[09:21] (gopp) rondd "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes; expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc.
[09:21] (freetrad3) oh wait no thats last access
[09:21] (icmp) e-Hernick: Uh?
[09:21] (icmp) Taxation by definition is legalized theft
[09:21] (e-Hernick) icmp: tax and theft are two different things.
[09:21] (gopp) invention I agree
[09:21] (icmp) War isn't by definition peace
[09:21] (gopp) e-Hernick it the same
[09:21] (e-Hernick) no, theft is theft *because* it's illegal
[09:21] (gopp) e-Hernick tax are legalized theft
[09:21] (icmp) It is legalized theft. Period.
[09:22] (gopp) e-Hernick just like casions are legalized theft
[09:22] (e-Hernick) casions?
[09:22] (e-Hernick) what's a casions?
[09:22] (gopp) yes
[09:22] (gopp) casion
[09:22] (PickleWk) e-Hernick: I don't, because they aren't different concepts. Theft is the taking of property without consent. Calling it a tax doesn't change anything except making people feel better about the fact that someone's putting a gun to their head and demanding their money.
[09:22] (rondd) revanch had a kidney stone problem same time an online friend had one. Mine was MRI'd in one week, 6 months later he did not have one
[09:22] (gopp) where you gamble
[09:22] (freetrad3) 4/24
[09:22] (e-Hernick) ohhoo
[09:22] (gopp) e-Hernick my spelling sucks
[09:22] (gopp) can't you read
[09:22] (icmp) The government uses force to take an arbitrary amount of money from our wallets -- regardless of its legality, it is theft.
[09:22] (rondd) revanch he was from canada
[09:22] (freetrad3) MOre than 2 weeks
[09:22] (e-Hernick) gopp: how are those theft?
[09:22] (icmp) The definition for theft doesnt differentiate because of legality
[09:22] (L0c0-) hm
[09:22] (gopp) e-Hernick they take away your money
[09:22] (michaelc) i hereby grand everyone infinite zero-dollar bills for use free of charge.
[09:23] (gopp) by leglal means
[09:23] (michaelc) i hereby grant everyone infinite zero-dollar bills for use free of charge.
[09:23] (e-Hernick) gopp: no, you give them away your money
[09:23] (freetrad3) I want to go back to bed.
[09:23] (e-Hernick) casinos and lotteries prey on those who want the thrill of gambling..
[09:23] (gopp) e-Hernick well oh k , but tax also theft
[09:23] (e-Hernick) but they are not "taking" money, people are giving it willingly
[09:23] (gopp) they pray on people who legally pay them
[09:23] (icmp) e-Hernick: That's their CHOICE. Citizens of a given area paying a tax have no such choice.
[09:23] (e-Hernick) no, they force people to pay
[09:23] (gopp) e-Hernick well taxes are theft
[09:23] (icmp) Being thrown in fucking jail is not a choice.
[09:23] (OldSchool) lol any tax is theft, you do realize that this funds your precious military right?
[09:24] (icmp) You're not thrown in jail for refusing to gamble.
[09:24] (gopp) e-Hernick that my point you go and gabmle it a choose
[09:24] (patch6) governments cherish the idea of controlling the means of production with majority consent, through whichever "common good" scenarios they can conjure up
[09:24] (gopp) e-Hernick it a choose
[09:24] (gopp) it my point
[09:24] (icmp) The comparison does not hold
[09:24] (gopp) e-Hernick but taxes are theft
[09:24] (gopp) thier no choose
[09:24] (e-Hernick) using the word "theft" to describe taxes is disingenuous.
[09:24] (gopp) e-Hernick no it not
[09:24] (OldSchool) The government HAS to exist in some form
[09:24] (Revanch) totally
[09:24] (gopp) when you don't wish to have money taken from your check
[09:24] (godfist) replace theft with the word obligation
[09:24] (gopp) Revanch Patients aren't likely to curb their drug costs and doctor visits if health care is free; thus, total costs will be several times what they are now.
[09:24] (icmp) OldSchool: That's not an argument for taxation.
[09:24] (Gosseyn) rondd: I heard about a particularly galling incident in Saskatchewan. The only surgeon in that province who was government-approved to perform gastric bypass (roux-en-Y, LAP-band, or Duodenal Switch, not sure which) surgeries retired due to his own failing health, and those who had been on the waiting list for the surgery, some upward of 2 years, were told, quite simply, to piss off, or "go pay for it yourself in the US".
[09:24] (michaelc) e-Hernick: tax upon labor is unconstitutional.
[09:24] (PickleWk) The fact that the military is funded by taxation doesn't change the basic fact that taxation is theft, and the state, which relies on taxation, is therefore an inherenty immoral entity that must be controlled to the greatest extent possible.
[09:24] (icmp) OldSchool: There are other ways to fund governmental institutions
[09:25] (OldSchool) like these charities your always talking about? =x
[09:25] (SonOfSpam) michaelc... the Supreme Court disagrees with you... unanimously, for nearly a century.
[09:25] (gopp) OldSchool yes
[09:25] (gopp) OldSchool charities
[09:25] (OldSchool) the government will be a charity funded by gracious conservatives
[09:25] (gopp) OldSchool Patients aren't likely to curb their drug costs and doctor visits if health care is free; thus, total costs will be several times what they are now.
[09:25] (OldSchool) lol
[09:25] (Jack123) Our federal income tax is in effect a corporate tax,, paying the interest on federal debt
[09:25] (godfist) yea icmp, we let god throw us down some money from heaven...right
[09:25] (rondd) gosseyn googgling "canada doctor problem" is very eye opening
[09:25] (SonOfSpam) michaelc... that whole amendment that says the feds can tax income from whatever source derived, *gasp*, includes labor.
[09:25] (icmp) pickle: Nor that the military was funded at the federal level without an income tax levied by the feds too
[09:25] (icmp) in the us
[09:25] (gopp) OldSchool we do that know
[09:25] (gopp) we have spend X dolalrs on private charites
[09:25] (Gosseyn) rondd: I believe one of their options was to get on the list for the surgery in Ontario. That results in a 3-5 year wait for surgery that is often approved within 1-4 weeks in the US.
[09:25] (e-Hernick) michaelc: the supreme court disagrees with you, and they know how to interpret the constitution better than you do
[09:25] (gopp) consertive do OldSchool
[09:25] (rondd) gosseyn sounds to me like revanch only reads hillary.com
[09:25] (gopp) e-Hernick Patients aren't likely to curb their drug costs and doctor visits if health care is free; thus, total costs will be several times what they are now.
[09:26] (michaelc) i do not disagree with the supreme court.
[09:26] (e-Hernick) gopp: several times?
[09:26] (patch6) socialized medicine is worse than privatized, there is a greatly diminished competitive aspect in the former, which results in tepid to mediocre service
[09:26] (gopp) yes
[09:26] (gopp) e-Hernick yes
[09:26] (PickleWk) Niether "liberals" nor "conservatives" like to hear the painful truth: that all the bullshit they want the government to do is being paid for with stolen goods.
[09:26] (gopp) e-Hernick people will call of work to get treated for a common cold
[09:26] (e-Hernick) gopp: well, that's an interesting approach. you think that universal health care should include universal drug coverage?
[09:26] (gopp) e-Hernick nope
[09:26] (gopp) it should not
[09:26] (gopp) nor should thier be
[09:26] (Gosseyn) rondd: Revanch is... a tool. That's the only apt description I can use.
[09:27] (gopp) univerisal healthcare
[09:27] (gopp) paid by tax payers
[09:27] (OldSchool) It'll be just like our educational system. Free healthcare for all, and better more expensive health care for those who can afford to pay it themselves
[09:27] (godfist) yea but that surgery probably costs $10,000+ in the u.s. depending on what it is and who has the money for that kind of expensive? you DO know that 50%+ of all individual (read not businesses) bankruptcies in the u.s. are from inability to pay medical bills
[09:27] (e-Hernick) gopp: well, you're attacking a form of universal health care that includes universal drug coverage, aren't you?
[09:27] (godfist) ah where's a link for proof...
[09:27] (Revanch) Pickle - if you believe that the government acts with the force of law, how can it be "theft" ?
[09:27] (gopp) OldSchool our public school are falling
[09:27] (gopp) OldSchool look at nyc
[09:27] (Gosseyn) Universal healthcare, wherever it's been implemented, invariably results in poor service, even poorer results, and overuse of services by those for whom it is "free".
[09:27] (gopp) and that is we fund so much in nyc
[09:27] (Revanch) are you an anarchist?
[09:27] (gopp) and still they fail
[09:27] (gopp) nyc get so much funding
[09:27] (Gosseyn) godfist: that surgery costs upward of $30,000.
[09:27] (gopp) and still this school fail
[09:27] (gopp) public school fail
[09:28] (icmp) Revanch: I am, Pickle is not.
[09:28] (gopp) OldSchool Loss of private practice options and possible reduced pay may dissuade many would-be doctors from pursuing the profession.
[09:28] (Gosseyn) godfist: and it's life-saving, in many cases.
[09:28] (PickleWk) Yeah, it'll be just like the educational system: in a state of breakdown and controlled by bureaucrats for whom the purpose of the system--education, and now, healthcare--is at the bottom of their list of considerations.
[09:28] (godfist) ah here we go
[09:28] (godfist) In addition, the study found that 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses (14). Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem.
[09:28] (gopp) yes many doctors will say heck with being a doctor it don't pay much
[09:28] (godfist) http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
[09:28] (patch6) would-be MDs are completely turned off to socialized medicine, they're leaving Canada en masse
[09:28] (gopp) patch6 they are
[09:28] (gopp) wow
[09:28] (gopp) I didn't know that
[09:28] (gopp) that make sense
[09:28] (godfist) every 30 seconds
[09:29] (godfist) wow that is just mind blowing
[09:29] (godfist) so why are medical costs so high
[09:29] (gopp) it fact
[09:29] (godfist) goverment overregulation?
[09:29] (godfist) or coporate greed?
[09:29] (godfist) or both?
[09:29] (godfist) i say both
[09:29] (gopp) coporate greed in canda
[09:29] (Gosseyn) godfist: *yawn* And therefore, we should pass universal healthcare that'll provide crappy coverage for all at the cost of considerably higher taxes for those who earn a decent living? Fuck THAT.
[09:29] (gopp) it goverment funded
[09:29] (JupaSaur) hmmm. cnn is reporting a plane-truck crash. did the truck driver have a pilot's license? was the truck at the wrong altitude? ;-)
[09:29] (Gosseyn) government funded means TAXPAYER FUNDED.
[09:29] (PickleWk) Revanch: Because acting with the force of law doesn't change anything. When the Nazis murdered Jews with the force of law, it was still murder. When slaveowners owned slaves with the force of law, it was still kidnapping and forced labour. When the government takes a buck from me that I don't want to give it, it's still theft.
[09:29] (Gosseyn) let's be clear on that.
[09:29] (patch6) natively-born MDs leave Canada, foreign ones replace them
[09:29] (patch6) ones that think even a socialist doctor wage is good
[09:29] (gopp) patch6 :)
[09:29] (godfist) people are forced to pay whatever hospitals charge (yes they can switch hospitals but if ALL hospitals raise their prices then what?)...sounds like an involuntary tax
[09:30] (gopp) godfist A long, painful transition will have to take place involving lost insurance industry jobs, business closures, and new patient record creation.
[09:30] (patch6) http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2006/08/28/doctor-shortage.html
[09:30] (godfist) i bet there's plenty of monopolies in the health care industry
[09:30] (Jack123) PickleWk - well said
[09:30] (Gosseyn) patch6: do you really want Dr. Jawaharlal Napeeshapetalam, MD (India Institute of Medicine) cutting your sorry ass open and giving you a triple-bypass?
[09:30] (gopp) hahaha
[09:30] (gopp) Gosseyn heck no
[09:30] (gopp) Gosseyn failure of communication
[09:30] (patch6) I'll probably just risk not going
[09:30] (gopp) first
[09:31] (gopp) The number of doctors per capita in Canada will decline by 2015 without more foreign-trained doctors, but increasing the number of spots for qualified Canadian students is a better solution, the Fraser Institute concludes in a report Monday.
[09:31] (Gosseyn) godfist: blah, blah, blah. You know what? Health care is NOT a right.
[09:31] (patch6) or paying whatever amount to have it done privately
[09:31] (gopp) godfist so you been proven wrong
[09:31] (gopp) godfist http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2006/08/28/doctor-shortage.html
[09:31] (fone`) if you make it that way gosseyn be prepared for revolution.. haha
[09:31] (fone`) you think someone who has a broken arm but cant afford to go to the hospital is just gonna say "oh well"
[09:31] (michaelc) the suprme court is fallible as it is infallible.
[09:31] (gopp) Restrictions on the volumes of services doctors deliver should be removed, said the report's author, Nadeem Esmail, a senior health policy analyst with the institute, a right-leaning think-tank.
[09:32] (Gosseyn) fone`: well, guess what? it ISN'T a right. Neither is an old-age pension, or money sufficient to live on from the government.
[09:32] (fone`) so even though american CAN afford to take care of its own
[09:32] (fone`) it shouldnt
[09:32] (Revanch) picklewk - if you truly believe taht taxation is "theft" then why don't you refuse to pay taxes?
[09:32] (fone`) :)
[09:32] (Gosseyn) fone`: No, it shouldn't. There should be consequences for poor decisions.
[09:32] (gopp) Revanch I do
[09:32] (Gosseyn) Revanch: Because the IRS will imprison you if you don't, that's why.
[09:32] (gopp) Revanch I refuse to pay taxes
[09:32] (gopp) Revanch I refuse to pay taxes
[09:33] (Gosseyn) gopp: of course, you don't earn enough to owe any. :)
[09:33] (fone`) ahhh... so a child that has parents that work 3 jobs on minimum wage that cant afford insurance should have to suffer if he has an illness
[09:33] (gopp) I am a college student
[09:33] (fone`) because his parents made bad decisions
[09:33] (michaelc) i don't pay taxes on labor.
[09:33] (Gosseyn) gopp: do you pay sales tax when you make a purchase? If so, then you're still paying taxes.
[09:33] (michaelc) the suprme court is fallible as it is infallible.
[09:33] (Revanch) fone - according to Gosseyn and pickle, yes.
[09:33] (fone`) or a worker who is laid off who can afford insurance should have to suffer for the bad decision of learning a skill that is being shipped over seas
[09:33] (gopp) Gosseyn yes and it theft
[09:33] (Gosseyn) fone`: know what? Too bad. I only went to the doctor for emergencies, and my parents self-paid. And they were poor.
[09:33] (gopp) Gosseyn acutally NO
[09:33] (gopp) Gosseyn most stores I shop at
[09:34] (gopp) have no sales tax
[09:34] (PickleWk) Revanch: Because they'll just take more from me and possibly send me to jail.
[09:34] (gopp) it is included in price I think
[09:34] (Gosseyn) gopp: thrift stores, huh?
[09:34] (gopp) I mostly shop at mom and pop shops
[09:34] (Gosseyn) gopp: well, if it's included, then you still pay it.
[09:34] (fone`) but according to what you are saying they shouldnt go for emergencies if they cant afford it
[09:34] (gopp) for some reason they never do
[09:34] (gopp) they never charge me tax
[09:34] (gopp) like a can of soda is 50 cent
[09:34] (gopp) not 55
[09:34] (eifer) what state are you in
[09:34] (Gosseyn) fone`: pretty much. Too bad, so sad, suck it up.
[09:34] (gopp) nj
[09:34] (rondd) So Revanch has nowmoved over to taxation
[09:34] (fone`) well.. then why did you go for emergencies?
[09:34] (fone`) if your parents were so poor
[09:34] (eifer) nj has sales tax
[09:34] (rondd) I bet he is as wrong about that as he is about healthcare
[09:35] (gopp) eifer not on none prepared food
[09:35] (gopp) or colth
[09:35] (rondd) but that is not my expertise so will just lurk on this one
[09:35] (eifer) yeah
[09:35] (gopp) only preparped colth
[09:35] (eifer) but you need to buy things other than food and clothing
[09:35] (patch6) the influx of illegal immigrants will guarantee that some form of universal healthcare is ushered in
[09:35] (gopp) err prepaired food ha tax
[09:35] (Gosseyn) fone`: They were poor -- not destitute. And a $25 or $30 doctor's visit once or twice a year wasn't going to break the bank.
[09:35] (gopp) eifer only things that have tax is tech good
[09:35] (gopp) and cars
[09:35] (fone`) emergencies cost a lot more then 25^
[09:35] (fone`) 26$
[09:35] (fone`) err
[09:35] (fone`) hehe
[09:35] (PickleWk) Revanch: More fundamentally, because the harm the government does to me by taking my taxes is less than the harm I'll suffer by either refusing to pay or refusing to work.
[09:35] (fone`) i suck at shift on the number keys
[09:35] (patch6) they are a solid base of socialist voters
[09:36] (Gosseyn) fone`: we're talking about going to the family doctor, not an emergency room.
[09:36] (godfist) Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem. (---I never said this meant we go to universal health care it just shows how messed up the system is
[09:36] (michaelc) the zero-dollar is universal health care.
[09:36] (Gosseyn) fone`: which is what people USED TO DO, back when healthcare wasn't screwed up now.
[09:36] (Gosseyn) er, screwed up like it is now.
[09:36] (Gosseyn) godfist: *yawn*
[09:36] (fone`) you dont go to the doctors office when you get in a car wreck
[09:36] (rondd) A dr's visit for a checkup cost almost nothing
[09:36] (fone`) you shouldnt have been driving?
[09:36] (fone`) haha
[09:36] (fone`) poor decision!
[09:36] (PickleWk) Which doesn't change the fact that the government IS doing harm--specifically, violating my rights--by taking my taxes. But as is often the case with coercion, it works.
[09:36] (rondd) if a person cannot afford that even withou insurance there is something wrong with that person
[09:36] (michaelc) what is universal healthcare?
[09:36] (Gosseyn) fone`: a childhood emergency isn't equivalent to a "car wreck".
[09:37] (rondd) insurance is to cover major medical
[09:37] (rondd) not a checkup
[09:37] (Gosseyn) michaelc: that's when the government takes from the rich to provide healthcare to the poor (and everybody else), managed by the government.
[09:37] (rondd) but its still does that too
[09:37] (patch6) they have no aversion to feeding from the public trough, as evidenced by http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html , where illegal households resulted in a net federal debt of $10 billion in 2002
[09:37] (michaelc) Gosseyn: it is never a zero-sum game.
[09:37] (Gosseyn) rondd: that's how it was for my parents. Their fee-for-service indemnity plan covered major medical. Doctor's visits and prescriptions were purely out of pocket.
[09:37] (Gosseyn) as it SHOULD be.
[09:38] (godfist) most patented prescription drugs are significantly more costly in the United States than in most other countries. Factors involved are the absence of U. S. government price controls, enforcement of intellectual property rights limiting the availability of generic drugs until after patent expiration, and the monopoly purchasing power seen in national single-payer systems. Many U.S. citizens obtain their medications, directly or indirectly, from foreign so
[09:38] (godfist) oh god
[09:38] (godfist) oh no
[09:38] (godfist) there is no big pharmeceutical
[09:38] (rondd) as it is people take advantage of the county er for a check up
[09:38] (rondd) for free to them
[09:38] (rondd) its not about affordablity
[09:38] (godfist) they dont file patents on generic forumals and say they're really not generic all the time
[09:38] (Gosseyn) rondd: which is why a trip to the ER is ridiculously expensive for those of us who HAVE insurance.
[09:38] (rondd) its about taking advantage of the system
[09:39] (patch6) a more current study is needed
[09:39] (rondd) but I am getting old now
[09:39] (rondd) my medical cost *are* going up
[09:39] (patch6) that is just the monetary aspect, the criminal aspects aren't even touched upon
[09:39] (Gosseyn) rondd: go to the nearest public hospital's ER on the taxpayers' dollar. Worse yet, call an AMBULANCE to haul you and your kid-with-the-sniffles to the ER.
[09:40] (rondd) if young kids like revanch want to pay for my increasing cost with Universal Healtcare I am almost for it
[09:40] (patch6) a lot of feel good sensibilities are being taken advantage of in the welcoming of illegal labor
[09:40] (rondd) theolder I get the more I am for it
[09:40] (rondd) why should i pay for all of that
[09:40] (rondd) I need my money for more golf anyways's
[09:40] (rondd) not medical cost
[09:40] (SweetLeaf) freaking immagration bill is like the alert system for home land security orange red etc. only points heh
[09:40] (Gosseyn) rondd: my wife had to go to the ER a couple of months ago with a small-bowel volvulus (a partial obstruction) that resolved itself in a few hours. The cost of her ER trip? ) $9,000.
[09:41] (freetrad3) We will see changed in the next 10 years. I am sure of it.. How we define those changes will be very important.
[09:41] (TheCougar) lol high school year book has pictures of kids using drugs and drinking alcohol
[09:41] (freetrad3) For the first time in US history, Large corporations want some kind of Health Care program..
[09:41] (freetrad3) So its coming
[09:41] (SweetLeaf) make all the illeagles citzens the will be americans and they wont do the work americans dont want to do endless circle
[09:41] (godfist) oh so everyone out there is expected to have PERFECT medical knowledge of all known conditions before they call the emergency room gosseyn? please
[09:41] (freetrad3) So its important that it use as many capitalist components as possible.
[09:42] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: they want it so that they don't have to shoulder the cost of retired workers' health insurance benefits.
[09:42] (godfist) people make mistakes, give them a break!
[09:42] (freetrad3) I dont speak of my will, I speak to trends and realities of which way the movements are heading. IN other words dont shoot the messenger, I dont agree with it but its going to happen.
[09:42] (Gosseyn) godfist: No, but there's a huge difference between bringing your little yardape into the ER for a fucking COLD, and coming in with a life-threatening condition.
[09:42] (PickleWk) Gosseyn: They also want it because it will make union contract negotiations cheaper.
[09:42] (freetrad3) Goss or exorbinant Union costs
[09:42] (SweetLeaf) you call your dr after hours it always says to go to the emergency no matter what
[09:43] (freetrad3) They cant compete as well with foreign companies who have no health care costs
[09:43] (TheCougar) universal health is a great idea. it will reduce stress for the average person, will help with money management, will give them better health (in some cases depending on what there current health plan is) which will allow them to work more hours
[09:43] (PickleWk) No more having to pay for healthcare, or so they think. The fact is that the unions will just ask for commensurately more in cash money, which corporations would know if they'd look at things go in Canada.
[09:43] (Gosseyn) PickleWk: well, of COURSE. Lower cost per employee in terms of benefits. You know, if they could offload life insurance and short-term/long-term disability onto the government, they would as well.
[09:43] (TheCougar) I just don't want to see smokers get the same benifits for the same price:)
[09:43] (thx1138^) here we go
[09:44] (freetrad3) UNiversal health care = less quality care, More expensive care overall, just shifting who pays for it, it will create problems like never before.
[09:44] (Gosseyn) shit, if they could shift the pension costs onto the government, they'd do that too... oh, wait... Resolution Trust Corporation, Pension Guarantee Corporation, etc.? They already DID.
[09:44] (thx1138^) the second the public starts paying for healthcare is the second aaaaaaaaaaaall the nannies step in
[09:44] (godfist) a bowel obstruction != cold
[09:44] (thx1138^) don't eat this don't smoke that
[09:44] (thx1138^) wear a helmet
[09:44] (freetrad3) Thats why if we are going to have some form of health care legislation it needs to be crafted with as much choice and capitalism as possible in the formula.
[09:44] (thx1138^) don't eat transfats
[09:44] (thx1138^) brush your teeth
[09:44] (Rebec) thx don't eat anything
[09:44] (freetrad3) We already have a system which I keep saying is probably 60% socialist at least.
[09:44] (Rebec) it will all kill you even the veggies
[09:45] (fone`) it is.. but in a bad way i think free
[09:45] (freetrad3) lets try to make it more capitalist, and maybe more efficient by removing regulations which impede innovation in cost controls
[09:45] (michaelc) freetrad3: it's not possible to have less quality. either something has a quality or it does not.
[09:45] (TheCougar) thx1138^: if it is a preventable thing and causes 400k+ deaths a year it should be considered for higher costs in a health care system
[09:45] (freetrad3) There are degrees my friend of quality.
[09:45] (PickleWk) I hate to say it, but what Romney implemented in Massacheusetts is probably the best American can accomplish to stave off socialised medicine.
[09:45] (michaelc) freetrad3: how many?
[09:45] (freetrad3) As Rondd pointed out, The ability to get an MRI in a week vs 3 months
[09:46] (moonglaiv) hehe, anyone seen the story about the TSA official who took the congressman's PB&J story?
[09:46] (freetrad3) That is less quality
[09:46] (michaelc) freetrad3: 360?
[09:46] (puella) the VA ambulatory surgery dept. is a good example of socialized medicine. 6 mo. to get a skin cancer removed from nose and get nose reconstructed.
[09:46] (freetrad3) Pickle I agree.
[09:46] (thx1138^) TheCougar the difference is normally its considered by private companies--instead of legislators who only know how to write more laws.
[09:46] (freetrad3) Somethign like that
[09:46] (freetrad3) But I really want to see some private market innovation.
[09:46] (freetrad3) I want to see a lot more of it.
[09:47] (freetrad3) I really am hot about this walmart idea, its no joke.
[09:47] (puella) walmart
[09:47] (freetrad3) They seriously plan to have clinics in their stores. Medical clinics.
[09:47] (TheCougar) thx1138^: and private companies only know how to make a profit (if your going to say legislators only know how to write more laws)
[09:47] (Jack123) Political power comes from coercion
[09:47] (freetrad3) Low cost.
[09:47] (michaelc) freetrad3: what is the quality of the MRI?
[09:47] (TheCougar) make one organization one dimential you have to make them all;)
[09:47] (puella) walmart's nurse practitioners are not covered by my insurance plan. we have a clinic in our local walmart.
[09:47] (thx1138^) TheCougar I can trust a man whose motives I know. I'm not afraid of greed.
[09:47] (freetrad3) Depends on who reads it. A well paid radiologist probably more.
[09:47] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: you remember, my wife and I both had gastric bypass surgery done in 2001, covered by insurance (for the most part)?
[09:47] (freetrad3) And timing is quality
[09:48] (freetrad3) it can be a matter of life and death
[09:48] (freetrad3) Goss, I do rememeber
[09:48] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: well, the surgery has been less than stellar in its long-term results.
[09:48] (freetrad3) - one e
[09:48] (freetrad3) Goss, really ? Has it helped moderately ?
[09:48] (freetrad3) Goss here is an interesting stoy.
[09:48] (freetrad3) story.
[09:49] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: yeah. I have normal cholesterol, normal blood sugar, pretty much normal bloodwork, but I'm still considered obese.
[09:49] (thx1138^) TheCougar are you arguing that government beauracracy is anywhere near efficient as private enterprise?
[09:49] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: and my wife's kept off a significant percentage of her excess weight, but is still a big girl.
[09:49] (TheCougar) thx1138^: what is your plan for the self employeed people? the guy who makes $25000 a year and has a kid who does construction?
[09:49] (freetrad3) I had my stomach stapled not to lose weight but to fix my esophagael valve, they removed 1/3 my stomach, First while after surgery I would eat a moderate size meal and then puke it up..
[09:49] (FTisFUKED) FREETRAD3 I HOPE THOSE LITTLE NIGLETS OF YOURS DIE OF AIDS
[09:49] (thx1138^) TheCougar oh you mean me? There are health plans out there, I've priced them.
[09:50] (thx1138^) And the point isn't to stay small.
[09:50] (godfist) ...ack
[09:50] (godfist) we have a spammer or flamer or something
[09:50] (michaelc) thx1138^: efficient at what?
[09:50] (FTisFUKED) I HOPE YOUR KIDS DIE OF AIDS YOU SHOULD HAVE NEVER HAD BLACK BABIES
[09:50] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: so we've decided to self-pay for both of us to get revisions done to the original surgery to provide lasting, effective, permanent weight loss.
[09:50] (Gosseyn) FTisFUKED: oh, shut UP.
[09:50] (FTisFUKED) BLACK BABIES SHOULD BE ABORTED
[09:50] (freetrad3) My head would say I am not full by body was.. But over time my stomach has stretched back to the old size pretty much and in fact i hit my highest weight ever after that surgery and then latel I have taken it off (The weight) by diet changes and exercise.
[09:50] (godfist) man who has your number today freetrade? sheesh
[09:50] (TheCougar) thx1138^: around here I've seen nothing less then $250 a month (that was about two years ago). a man making $25k a year can't afford that
[09:51] (freetrad3) Fucking bigot, I would like to put his head in a vise and slowly squeese it till what little brain was left came out.
[09:51] (freetrad3) Anyway.. No time to suffer fools.
[09:52] (freetrad3) Goss, You read about my surgery experience while we were bring flooded ?
[09:52] (PickleWk) freetrad3: Just a troll. Probably a black baby himself.
[09:52] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: my point is, we can't get coverage under our insurance policy for the revision surgery we both want (and, honestly, need), so we're going to do the only smart thing -- tell the insurer to go fuck itself and pay our own way. :)
[09:52] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: Yup.
[09:52] (michaelc) freetrad3: punishment is crime.
[09:52] (freetrad3) Pickle, could be..
[09:52] (fone`) hehe
[09:52] (freetrad3) Michale, IM not literal..
[09:52] (freetrad3) IN fact I woudlnt even like it, I couldnt be as cruel as he is..
[09:53] (michaelc) he's cruel?
[09:53] (michaelc) who told you that?
[09:53] (TheCougar) http://www.ksdk.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=119954
[09:53] (Jack123) Most of government opperates on misrepresentation or fraud to get you to do what you normally wouldn't do. Politicians operate on the level of the con man. new term terrocrat impose their will by coersion
[09:53] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: the two of us, flying from here (CMH) to Alicante, Spain, with a companion to help us out postsurgically during the two weeks we'll have to stay there, plus the surgery, plus apartment rental (weekly, E145), plus other costs, will end up costing us about $45,000USD.
[09:53] (freetrad3) Goss hehe yeah.. Hey why the revision though ? New technology ? Or what ?
[09:53] (freetrad3) WOW
[09:54] (freetrad3) Your going to spain to have it donw ?
[09:54] (freetrad3) done ?
[09:54] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: not a "new" surgical procedure. One that this surgeon has done about 17,000 times in the last 12 years.
[09:54] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: he's done over 1000 revisions.
[09:54] (freetrad3) Hmm And you checked him out good ?
[09:54] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: oh, yeah.
[09:54] (freetrad3) YOu checked out medical journals on him ?
[09:54] (TheCougar) how in the world are you paying for that
[09:55] (freetrad3) Why is he so successful ? Method ? Just very good ? What ?
[09:55] (thx1138^) TheCougar first of all, please explain the entitlement someone who makes $25k a year has to $250/month health coverage
[09:55] (TheCougar) what?
[09:55] (thx1138^) secondly, thats retail value, there's better pricing out there if you know how to shop
[09:55] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: he's co-authored the definitive studies on the particular surgery, along with the surgeon we WOULD have used -- Dr Douglas Hess of Ohio -- had Hess not retired last year.
[09:55] (freetrad3) Ahh
[09:56] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: his name is Aniceto Baltasar, and he's probably the best surgeon in the world for RNY-to-BPD/DS revision surgery.
[09:56] (thx1138^) TheCougar well, you're asking why a person who makes X a year isn't covered, and I'm asking what claim to entitlement of coverage does this or any individual have from others?
[09:56] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: how are we paying for it? Well, to put it bluntly, we have the wherewithal to do so.
[09:57] (freetrad3) Buy castrastrophic, I have high copays but I get 100 day drug coverage and it lowers the cost.
[09:57] (freetrad3) $30 copay
[09:57] (Gosseyn) I mean, we paid $46,000 in income taxes in 2006. One would assume that someone who earns enough to pay THAT much in taxes would have the wherewithal to pony up $45k pretty much at will. :)
[09:57] (freetrad3) 10 for 100 day drugs
[09:57] (freetrad3) $25 100 day brand name drugs
[09:57] (TheCougar) why use wherewithal when you can just say your rich?
[09:57] (ejb) what is the url for that health plan?
[09:57] (TheCougar) man make me use google define...
[09:57] (freetrad3) If I walk out with a prescription its in a bag ;)
[09:57] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: not rich, dude. Just well-off.
[09:57] (ejb) im uninsured
[09:57] (freetrad3) hahaha
[09:58] (TheCougar) thx1138^: i went over the whole society thing yesterday with people
[09:58] (Gosseyn) oh, wait, according to the Clintonistas, those who earn over $50,000 a year are "the rich".
[09:58] (Cathy344) I'd rather be well off than rich.
[09:58] (TheCougar) Gosseyn: i must miss understand something then. I thought you where going to get your stumech cut in half so you didn't eat as much
[09:59] (thx1138^) TheCougar well this is apparently the divergence in our philosophies that are the root of this difference.
[09:59] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: oh, that's already been done. Neither of us CAN eat much, but the weight's slowly creeping back on despite that, and working out in the fitness center at work 3 days a week @ 7am.
[09:59] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: this is a revision to a six-year-old surgery we both underwent in 2001 that has ultimately been unsuccessful.
[09:59] (PickleWk) Anyone who can afford what they need is "rich". Only those who require government assistance are middle-class or worse.
[09:59] (TheCougar) you make over $300k a year... thats rich imo
[10:00] (PickleWk) And, by the way, only the needy are worthy human beings.
[10:00] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: No, we make about $200,000 a year. Not rich. Just comfortable.
[10:00] (TheCougar) Gosseyn: so your going to get it cut again right?
[10:00] (TheCougar) Gosseyn: have any kids?
[10:00] (thx1138^) TheCougar you oughta meet people that make $1mil a year, they'd disagree.
[10:00] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: No, Dr. Baltasar's going to take down the original surgery and redo the whole thing.
[10:00] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: thank God, no.
[10:01] (TheCougar) Gosseyn: and the original surgury was what?
[10:01] (TheCougar) i'm really confused about what he is going to do:)
[10:01] (TheCougar) i just don't understand how what he is going to do is going to help you lose weight. are you eating to much or ?
[10:01] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: "an extremely proximal (405cm common channel) roux-en-Y gastric bypass".
[10:01] (michaelc) TheCougar: your -) you're
[10:02] (fone`) i dont make anywhere near 200k but i dont have to work so i feel rich
[10:02] (fone`) hahaha
[10:02] (TheCougar) michaelc: yeah i screw that up and a lot of other spellings as well
[10:02] (fone`) if i had a mil a year id just feel more rich
[10:02] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: I'm eating more than I should be able to, yes. I should be limited to about 2-3 ounces, I can eat about 8-10 ounces of food at a sitting.
[10:02] (TheCougar) Gosseyn: $45k in taxes at 15% for social security is $300k+.
[10:02] (Gosseyn) that's NOT the way the original surgery was supposed to work.
[10:02] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: 45k between city, state, and fed.
[10:02] (TheCougar) ah ok
[10:03] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: I'm speaking of income taxes, not payroll.
[10:03] (TheCougar) i thought you where just talking fed for some reason
[10:03] (michaelc) TheCougar: you didn't screw anything up. you never will.
[10:03] (TheCougar) Gosseyn: so you just can't stop yourself from eating?
[10:03] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: oh, I can stop myself when I feel sated, which is after about 8, maybe 10, ounces of food.
[10:04] (TheCougar) 10 ounces that slike half a slice of pizza:)
[10:04] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: which is about 2-3x what I should've been able to consume post-surgically.
[10:04] (TheCougar) Gosseyn: and you and your wife both have this problem?
[10:04] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: I started at 345. I lost down to 220. I'm back up at 260 six years after the surgery.
[10:04] (Gosseyn) that's NOT good.
[10:05] (TheCougar) ah to weigh 260:-/
[10:05] (JimRoss) how fat is your wife?
[10:05] (Gosseyn) JimRoss: who are you, and why don't you go fuck yourself?
[10:05] (TheCougar) um
[10:05] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: yes, we're both large.
[10:06] (TheCougar) Gosseyn: i think he was just asking based on the conversation. unless he is a regular troll
[10:06] (Gosseyn) He's a regular troll.
[10:06] (TheCougar) ah ok
[10:06] (TheCougar) lol
[10:06] (Gosseyn) that's FTisFUKED.
[10:06] (JimRoss) ?
[10:06] (JimRoss) I just got here
[10:06] (Gosseyn) the one who's been insulting freetrad3.
[10:07] (Gosseyn) different username, same host.
[10:07] (TheCougar) got you
[10:07] (JimRoss) I havent insulted anyone
[10:07] (JimRoss) this is WebChat I get on this at work
[10:07] (TheCougar) wasn't sure. it seamed like a question that was related to the conversation but now that i look back and see how little he actaully got to read
[10:07] (Gosseyn) ah. well, sorry, thought you were a certain troll who's been busy here this afternoon.
[10:08] (TheCougar) Gosseyn: I'm obese but it is mostly because i haven't found the control yet to lower my intake of food completely
[10:08] (TheCougar) plus i have a desk job and the winter time it makes it extremely convinent to eat all day
[10:09] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: the surgery we were able to get was through Barix Clinics, formerly Bariatric Treatment Centers. What they don't tell you is that they perform a one-size-fits-all surgery that DOESN'T fit all.
[10:09] (TheCougar) but don't think i have any biological conditions limiting me
[10:09] (MissLaVey) blahhhh.
[10:09] (TWThomas) Explosion in the Turkish Capital
[10:09] (JimRoss) MissLavey I REMEMBER YOU
[10:09] (MissLaVey) OMG REALLY?
[10:09] (MissLaVey) that's okay, lots of people do.
[10:10] (MissLaVey) bud!
[10:10] (TheCougar) cia world fact book is down!!!:(
[10:10] * TheCougar should have backed it up localy
[10:10] (JimRoss) you are the ugly fat bitch from this website http://p0r.org/misslaveysexscandal06.php
[10:10] (shadoo) terrible
[10:10] (MissLaVey) yes i am.
[10:10] (shadoo) insulting
[10:10] (MissLaVey) keep obsessing.
[10:11] (JimRoss) you need a gastric bypass Lavey
[10:11] (JimRoss) and full body plastic surgery
[10:12] (TheCougar) Gosseyn: well good luck and next year when you have another spare $45k i'll be glad to take it off your hands;)
[10:12] (MissLaVey) i wish. i'm not nealy heavy enough for it.
[10:12] (TheCougar) that would be 5 years i wouldn't have to work if i didn't want to
[10:12] (PickleWk) I hate to say it, but that cgi chat's gonna have to go to novoice, I think.
[10:13] (PickleWk) Too many people are abusing it with web proxies.
[10:13] (MissLaVey) wouldn't be a bad idea.
[10:13] (freetrad3) Pickle yeah its a real annoyance unfortunately
[10:13] (patch6) maybe it's just one person abusing it with multiple proxies
[10:13] (TWThomas) mIRC is the way to go and cgi chats got to go
[10:13] (MissLaVey) its more than 1 person
[10:13] (MissLaVey) it's over 50 people who abuse it
[10:14] (patch6) yikes
[10:14] (freetrad3) You know I think most the attacks on me are because I am a traitor to the white race and like them brown skinned spics (Sic)
[10:15] (freetrad3) hehehhe
[10:15] (freetrad3) I have a recording from Dennis Miller which is so funny
[10:15] (shadoo) freetrad3:so what
[10:15] (freetrad3) I need to transfer it from tv to mp
[10:15] (freetrad3) So what what ?
[10:15] (shadoo) that you like spaniards
[10:16] (freetrad3) So what is being assaulted daily by racists in private message and on channel.
[10:16] (Cathy344) No good. I've known too many Spaniards.
[10:16] (freetrad3) But I can deal with it, I have dealt with it for over a decade
[10:16] (shadoo) freetrad3:: why a traitor ?
[10:17] (freetrad3) Its a figure of speech, are you not american ? I say that seriously with no ill intent, because you dont understand the sarcasm and the figures of speech I am using which are colloquial to americans
[10:17] (TWThomas) Ron Paul has to go
[10:17] (shadoo) lol
[10:17] (freetrad3) Why do you laugh ?
[10:17] (gwb43sux) Anyone here listening to the Oxycontin Kid?
[10:18] (shadoo) freetrad3:I'm Canadian.
[10:18] (godfist) i didn't know you were being sarcastic either freetrad#
[10:18] (godfist) freetrad3
[10:18] (gwb43sux) That thrice-divorced viagra-gobblin' father of no one?
[10:18] (godfist) even
[10:18] (SweetLeaf) Martyr Mouse is on the way
[10:18] (freetrad3) Yo think I would say Spi* without sarcasm ?
[10:18] (freetrad3) You think I use that language regularly ?
[10:19] (shadoo) yes
[10:19] (freetrad3) And race traitor is a figure of speech
[10:19] (godfist) i didn't know what a spic was either...guess i'm dumb :/
[10:19] (michaelc) freetrad3: i'm a racist and i'm ashamed of no one.
[10:19] (TWThomas) someone ban *!*@*.csuohio.edu
[10:19] (gwbsuxx) suck on it, freetrad3
[10:19] (freetrad3) It means nothing in reality.. there is no such thing as a race traitor literally
[10:19] (gwbsuxx) suck on it hard
[10:19] (freetrad3) twt I did last night
[10:19] (starly) gwbsuxx, you are devoiced (Requested by SonOfSpam )
[10:19] (godfist) ahhh haha
[10:19] (SonOfSpam) Oh do shut up, Porsche.
[10:19] (shadoo) racists should be banned from here.
[10:20] (godfist) dont need to +b you to get you to shut up
[10:20] (godfist) just -v ya lol
[10:20] (SweetLeaf) I thought it was spelled spick
[10:20] (MissLaVey) no, racists shouldnt be banned.
[10:20] * gwbsuxx is now known as gwbsuxxx
[10:20] (McJee) why not?
[10:20] (freetrad3) Yes they should and they will be
[10:20] (freetrad3) Actually let me revise
[10:20] (TWThomas) laying the rack down on hate town
[10:20] (freetrad3) you have a right to be a racist pig
[10:20] (MissLaVey) even if they aren't spewing racist speech?
[10:20] (freetrad3) but keep it to yourself
[10:20] (freetrad3) it has no place in any debate on this channel.
[10:20] (freetrad3) We can debate race
[10:21] (SweetLeaf) keep it to yourself
[10:21] (shadoo) free speech is limited to the hate law parameters in Canada
[10:21] (freetrad3) we cant be racist in our talk on this channel
[10:21] (MissLaVey) you said racists should be banned. you'd ban someone for their beliefs, regardless of whether they speak of them or not.
[10:21] (freetrad3) IN other words no N this or N that, or Your a N or your a K or etc
[10:21] (fone`) yeah.. hate laws are pretty bogus
[10:21] (freetrad3) N= Niger k = Kike etc
[10:21] (cyr) shadoo: soon "global warming denial" will be a crime then
[10:21] (freetrad3) Might as well make it clear what i mean
[10:21] (fone`) treating one crime differently than another based on races involved is retarded
[10:22] (SweetLeaf) my son is really PC he is really into the not using certain words but when he gets mad everything in the world comes out of his mouth I laugh at him he gets madder heh
[10:22] (shadoo) we should respect each other:you never know who you're insulting
[10:22] (freetrad3) This channel is for mature adults to debate and discuss like whats been going on for the last 3 hours, its not for racists and children to spew thier garbage free speech
[10:22] (cyr) shadoo: thats bull
[10:22] (godfist) what's up with hate crimes in the u.s. anyway..shouldn't a crime against anyone regardless of race just be a crime? bring race into our laws just leads to racsim!
[10:22] (freetrad3) Yes race can be debated in a proper way
[10:22] (godfist) bring=invovling
[10:22] (freetrad3) Like why is it the murder rate in the black community is higher ? That is a sociological question.
[10:22] (Gosseyn) Gee, I guess that WAS the asshole I predicted he was. JimRoss, I mean.
[10:22] (Gosseyn) :)
[10:23] (MissLaVey) freetrad3: but you said you would ban someone because they're racist, reglardless of whether they spew out "hate speech" or not.
[10:23] * Gosseyn just scrolled back.
[10:23] (SweetLeaf) Lebanon is the flash point
[10:23] (freetrad3) But thats not racism. thats legitimate intellectual debate.
[10:23] (SweetLeaf) watch it
[10:23] (patch6) hate crimes are the legal manifestation of political correctness
[10:23] (shadoo) How can there ever be peace otherwise ?
[10:23] (cyr) shadoo: by not being offended
[10:23] (freetrad3) America has free speech, #politics doesnt.
[10:23] (MissLaVey) shadoo: there will never be peace.
[10:23] (SweetLeaf) Hate is a human nature thing it will never go away
[10:23] (l1bertine) ological question.
[10:24] (l1bertine) cut/paste error
[10:24] (CarZ) SweetLeaf: 'PC'?
[10:24] (shadoo) peace is achievable
[10:24] (SweetLeaf) I was brought up in a very racist environment my dad is spinning in his grave I married a gook
[10:24] (MissLaVey) no, it's not.
[10:24] (l1bertine) http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,274174,00.html (- Article in defense of Ron Paul.
[10:24] (Gosseyn) TheCougar: actually, the $45k should pretty much cover both myself and my wife. The actual revision surgery is about $20k including four days postoperative hospital stay. Less for a non-revision. Actually, $50k is probably a more realistic number for the total cost including airfare, short-term apartment rental, both surgeries, etc.
[10:24] (freetrad3) Hate all you want, keep it off this channel. Again this is a channel for Mature adults or super mature teens.
[10:24] (freetrad3) Ideally
[10:24] (Astrodog) Revision?
[10:24] (freetrad3) Sweet hehehehehe
[10:25] (shadoo) freetrad3:here here
[10:25] (MissLaVey) freetrad3: that's not what you said though. you said RACISTS should be banned, not racist speech.
[10:25] (Gosseyn) Astrodog: revision. As in, revising a previous surgery to a different one.
[10:25] (cyr) MissLaVey: he has since then given 30 lines of clarification
[10:25] (freetrad3) My dad had no issues at all with me marrying a black woman the only thing he was pissed about what I went to Reno and did it with no public ceremony, he wanted to be there and was willing to jump on a plane that moment.
[10:25] (rondd) typical misslavey
[10:25] (Astrodog) MLV: Actually... I'm with what he said first.
[10:25] (Astrodog) Fuck racists.
[10:25] (shadoo) at least we're not talking abut surgery
[10:25] (SweetLeaf) my bro had mexican friends that had to stay in the street not allowed on my dads property
[10:25] (Gosseyn) shadoo: Heh.
[10:25] (freetrad3) But i wanted to do it fast and without fanfare..
[10:25] (freetrad3) I hate weddings
[10:26] (freetrad3) I prefer funerals to be honest
[10:26] (MissLaVey) Astrodog: i'm not. i'm a free speech advocate.
[10:26] (Astrodog) FT: If you decide to ban all racists from here.... I won't complain! :P
[10:26] (Gosseyn) anyway, if y'all don't see me after January 2008, it's because I'm dead. :)
[10:26] (SweetLeaf) it was ok to play baseball with them
[10:26] (shadoo) astrodog: cool
[10:26] (l1bertine) "Perhaps, Paul suggested, the 15-year presence of the U.S. military forces in Muslim countries may have motivated them. For that, Giuliani excoriated him, calling it an "extraordinary statement," adding, "I don't think I've heard that before."
[10:26] (freetrad3) Goss hehe, How risky is it actually ?
[10:26] (TWThomas) Gosseyn : or voted for a dud candidate
[10:26] (cyr) Gosseyn: what type of surgery?
[10:26] (freetrad3) Its not funny if your dead but.. the way you said it.
[10:26] (Astrodog) MLV: And if this wasn't on a private IRC network, created using private systems, and private bandwidth, I'd agree with you.
[10:26] (patch6) which entity determines the verbiage to be considered hateful
[10:26] (l1bertine) Balko responds with "Let's be blunt. Giuliani was either lying, or he hasn't cracked a book in six years."
[10:26] (freetrad3) patch6, the ops
[10:26] (patch6) outside of the channel
[10:27] (l1bertine) Balko pulls no punches..
[10:27] (MissLaVey) the network itself doesn't have a bill of rights.
[10:27] (MissLaVey) http://www.peopleagainstcensorship.com/
[10:27] (Astrodog) patch: I do.
[10:27] (shadoo) patch6: good question
[10:27] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: Baltasar has had about a dozen on-table deaths in the last 17 years, and some postoperative mortalities, but his batting average (so to speak) is under 0.5% perioperative/postoperative mortality.
[10:27] (freetrad3) libertine where was this?
[10:27] (freetrad3) He never said that at the debate as I recall
[10:27] (Astrodog) MLV: If a private organization wants to censor something.. I believe it has the right to do so.
[10:27] (freetrad3) I dont recall any reference to 15 years
[10:27] (l1bertine) freetrad3: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,274174,00.html
[10:27] (Astrodog) Goss: What's the operation?
[10:28] (l1bertine) freetrad3: article writer is on my fav libertarians; Radley Balko
[10:28] (freetrad3) checking
[10:28] (freetrad3) 15 in numbers or fifteen ?
[10:28] (l1bertine) his blog is theagitator.com
[10:28] (MissLaVey) Astrodog: and how would you go about defining 'private'?
[10:28] (freetrad3) He didnt say it in the debate
[10:28] (Astrodog) MLV: Things not owned by the state.
[10:28] (freetrad3) no quotation marks
[10:28] (MissLaVey) last i checked, irc was public.
[10:29] (freetrad3) THats an analysis of the debate or a commentary on the debate by either guiliani or the paper
[10:29] (SweetLeaf) I wish someone that had balls was running for president even a woman with balls would do like Maggie
[10:29] (godfist) the governemnt owns irc servers?
[10:29] (godfist) huh?
[10:29] (godfist) government*
[10:29] (shadoo) Asrodog:the public/private split is hazy on IRC
[10:29] (freetrad3) Perhaps, Paul suggested, the 15-year presence of the U.S. military forces in Muslim countries may have motivated them. For that, Giuliani excoriated him, calling it an "extraordinary statement," adding, "I don't think I've heard that before."
[10:29] (rondd) irc is not public in the sense like a paid for by tax payors public park
[10:29] (l1bertine) freetrad3: huh? Guiliani did say 'I don't think I've heards that before'
[10:29] (godfist) oh yea
[10:29] (rondd) and misslavey knows that
[10:29] * godfist forgot he was on irc.efnet.gov
[10:29] (Astrodog) MLV: No, as a matter of fact, IRC is private.
[10:29] (godfist) :P
[10:29] (freetrad3) Perhaps..............Paul suggested............,the 15 year presence
[10:30] (freetrad3) Its not a quote
[10:30] (Astrodog) If an oper decides you can't say the word "Cotten". You can't. And he's entirely within his rights for banning you, if you do.
[10:30] (SweetLeaf) the fuxing english and frogs cut up the middle east
[10:30] (l1bertine) right, the first part is not.
[10:30] (CarZ) Blah.
[10:30] (MissLaVey) i hardly think tht the internet is private.
[10:30] (l1bertine) but that was paul's point, we've been going over it for days here.
[10:30] (Astrodog) MLV "The Internet" is not.
[10:30] (shadoo) sweetleaf: screw off
[10:30] (l1bertine) it's nice to see it hit the mainstream press
[10:30] (Astrodog) A specific network, or system, is.
[10:30] (freetrad3) Where do we come up with the number 15, Oh since the last gulf war ?
[10:30] (CarZ) SweetLeaf: Did you mean: "Publicly Conserved" ?
[10:30] (freetrad3) That had no motivation at all for bin laden
[10:30] (MissLaVey) irc being part of the internet. memberships aren't required for irc, and it is open to anyone.
[10:31] (TheCougar) the internet is not private. the content on it can be
[10:31] (shadoo) exactly
[10:31] (freetrad3) Bin laden decided we must die not even related to the middle east unless you consider afghanistan the middle east, last I checked it wasnt
[10:31] (l1bertine) technically; the internet is private.
[10:31] (shadoo) bs
[10:31] (Astrodog) MLV: I don't mean "Private" like "Private Party".
[10:31] (freetrad3) He made a decision in Afghanistan that since the soviets could be beat, he could and would beat the Americans
[10:31] (l1bertine) it just has variable privacy in your content ;)
[10:31] (Astrodog) I mean "Private" like "Private Sector"
[10:31] (TheCougar) MissLaVey: you may work for a business that is a private business, even bars and such can be private businesses. this does not mean they do not do business with the public
[10:31] (freetrad3) You got that..
[10:31] (freetrad3) He made a decision in Afghanistan that since the soviets could be beat, he could and would beat the Americans
[10:31] (l1bertine) the internet is private; as in private sector.
[10:31] (shadoo) freetrad3: the cia trained him
[10:31] (freetrad3) Thats when he decided
[10:32] (freetrad3) So the argument maybe is we should not have tried to counter the soviet union at all like Carter didnt
[10:32] (freetrad3) I dont think many libertarians would even agree with that.
[10:32] (freetrad3) Communism was a growing threat to american freedom and liberty
[10:32] (TWThomas) freetrad3 : No Ron Paul is wrong and always be wrong. The only terrorists that don't like our Presence in Saudia Arabia is Al-Qaida!
[10:32] (shadoo) bs
[10:32] (SweetLeaf) Carter was a disgrace the media loves a spineless sum a bitch like Jimmi
[10:32] (freetrad3) COmmunism was reducing out ability to do business with other countries on a free trade basis.
[10:33] (freetrad3) to buy and sell stock in companies internationally.
[10:33] (godfist) so we deliberately fund a terrorist organization like the taliban to "counter the soviet union"?
[10:33] (shadoo) Manifest destiny continues to be growing threat to global peace
[10:33] (Astrodog) MLV: With the exception of malicious behavior, that actually damages your computer... IRC network operators can do whatever they damn well please, as it relates to users connected.
[10:33] (Jack123) We have enough terrorists in this country.
[10:33] (freetrad3) It was violating americans freedoms to interact freely with other free individuals in the world.
[10:33] (TheCougar) has any one noticed something... if we support it it turns out to be the bad guys in the end
[10:33] (TheCougar) THINK ABOUT IT....:)
[10:33] (freetrad3) Communism is antithetical to Libertarianism
[10:33] (michaelc) he's also always right.
[10:33] (Astrodog) If they want to ban black people from their IRC network... they can do that.
[10:33] (MissLaVey) Astrodog: good fo them. that doesn't mean i should accept censorship of any intelligent speech.
[10:34] (Gosseyn) TWThomas: Umm, no.
[10:34] (Astrodog) It would be in poor taste... but its certainly their right.
[10:34] (Astrodog) MLV: That's the thing.
[10:34] (Astrodog) You don't get to decide if you accept it.
[10:34] (TheCougar) Astrodog: if it is a irc server in america that may not be true
[10:34] (shadoo) Capitalism is entithetical to world harmony.
[10:34] (Astrodog) They can just do it. And if you bitch... they can kick you off, too.
[10:34] (l1bertine) first we'd need an RFC for authenicating your race.
[10:34] (TheCougar) Astrodog: about banning 'black people'
[10:34] (Gosseyn) TWThomas: Saudi Arabia's official "branch" of Islam is Wahhabism, which is extremely conservative and anti-West.
[10:34] (MissLaVey) iDO get to decide if i accept it.
[10:34] (MissLaVey) i'm not controlled by anyone.
[10:34] (l1bertine) once the RFC is defined, we can work on the software and hardware..
[10:34] (freetrad3) Libertarians believe I think mostly for example, That Pinochet had every right to stop allende from violating the constitution of chile and stealing wealth and redistributing it through a state ownership and control method of communism.
[10:34] (v0dka) A CALIFORNIAN man who tried to kill his girlfriend by leaving her in a car parked across railway lines was himself killed when an oncoming train hurled the car into him as he fled. His girlfriend survived, the Associated Press reported.
[10:34] (freetrad3) Thats all debatable
[10:34] (Astrodog) TheCougar: IRC networks aren't protected, like Housing or Loans are.
[10:35] (shadoo) MissLavey: social control rules
[10:35] (Gosseyn) v0dka: karma certainly IS a bitch, isn't it?
[10:35] (freetrad3) A libertarian in america might also say well I dont agree with communism and they should be shot here, but in other countries its their problem.
[10:35] (TheCougar) Astrodog: an irc network in america most likely would lose that lawsuite in a heart beat if they baned people based on race.
[10:35] (TheCougar) Astrodog: there are laws against that...
[10:35] (IamKing) v0dka: now THAT is irony...hahahahah
[10:35] (v0dka) Gosseyn: YES
[10:35] (Astrodog) TheCougar: Not ones that relate to IRC networks.
[10:35] (Gosseyn) How the HELL can you determine the race of an IRC user?
[10:35] (Astrodog) There are ones about apaartments, schools, etc...
[10:35] (Astrodog) Not IRC.
[10:35] (Astrodog) :P
[10:35] (freetrad3) Or they might say it effects our interests in freedom by eating up the world and denying us trading partners and stealing US assets
[10:35] (godfist) /race Gosseyn
[10:35] (godfist) :P
[10:35] (thx1138^) freetrad3 you hear Chavez is gunning down on the last of the landowners in Venezuela and converting their farms to agri-communes
[10:35] (shadoo) freetrad3: I'm a communist
[10:35] (TheCougar) Astrodog: i'm pretty sure there are general laws saying you can't deny your services to a person based on race
[10:35] (Gosseyn) require the use of biometric devices to determine the race via DNA sampling?
[10:36] (Gosseyn) :)
[10:36] (freetrad3) IN any event, what he said was wrong.
[10:36] (MissLaVey) TheCougar: not online, really.
[10:36] (freetrad3) and he has no clue of foreign policy in this modern global economic age.
[10:36] (Astrodog) TheC: I thought that too.... as it turns out, provided you have less than 10 employees, you're all clear as a business.
[10:36] (Gosseyn) thx-1138: Neat, he's bringing back the kollektiviye khozyaistva!
[10:36] (Gosseyn) ("kolkhoz's" or "collective farms")
[10:36] (l1bertine) determing the race of an irc user would require a new rfc first ;)
[10:36] (Astrodog) l1b: Nah.
[10:37] (Astrodog) We'd use DCC.
[10:37] (freetrad3) The "blowback" theory isn't some fringe idea common only to crazy Sept. 11 conspiracy theorists. It doesn't suggest that we "deserved" the Sept. 11 attacks, nor does it suggest we shouldn't have retaliated against the people who waged them.
[10:37] (freetrad3) What it does say is that actions have consequences. When the Arab and Muslim world continually sees U.S. troops marching through Arab and Muslim backyards, U.S. trade sanctions causing Arab and Muslim suffering and U.S. bombs landing on Arab and Muslim homes, it isn't difficult to see how Arabs could begin to develop a deep contempt for the U.S.
[10:37] (Astrodog) Since you can jam whatever protocol you want down that.
[10:37] (l1bertine) RFC 6942 - Packet Race Authentication
[10:37] (Astrodog) :P
[10:37] (TheCougar) so all the laws on the books in america are releated to indivisial types of businesses when it comes to race?
[10:37] (freetrad3) Bin laden at the time he declared war on the USA wasnt even in the middle east.
[10:37] (shadoo) freetrad3: the USA needs to stop dominating global agendas
[10:37] (freetrad3) It was right after the Afghan war
[10:37] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: this is what I've been saying all along, especially over on the OTHER network's #politics, and all I get is catcalls and insults.
[10:37] (freetrad3) before the gulf war
[10:37] (TheCougar) so if i create a new market of business that hasn't existed before I can ban people from using that market based on race?
[10:38] (Astrodog) Thecougar: If you have less than 10 employees, and are not loaning money, offering jobs, or renting and selling houses... yes.
[10:38] (freetrad3) This is an editorial peice btw
[10:38] (freetrad3) But we also shouldn't just attack any Arab or Muslim country, which is what we did with Iraq. Saddam Hussein's government was brutal, ruthless and tyrannical. No doubt. But so are a number of countries with which we're allies (read: Saudi Arabia).
[10:38] (TheCougar) Astrodog: so a bar with less then 10 employees can ban people based on race?
[10:38] (TSnow1) Where is John fund when you need him?
[10:38] (freetrad3) But comparing Saddam to the king or prince of Saudi Arabia is dishonest.
[10:38] (Astrodog) The: Yes.
[10:39] (freetrad3) we may not like SA justice but its relatively even justice instead of arbitrary
[10:39] (rondd) TheCougar I don't think you have to state why your declining service so yes
[10:39] (shadoo) freetrad3: what about Iran and Noth Korea: are they next ?
[10:39] (Astrodog) TheC: It would probably get frog marched outta town.. but it could, if so inclined.
[10:39] (freetrad3) you know the punishment for the crime if you commit it when you commit it.
[10:39] (Gosseyn) Our foreign policies have, for better or worse, engendered hatred and fanaticism among the people of the Middle East, and that has been the engine that's powered the terrorist acts against US targets. NOT "they hate our democracy", "they hate freedom", "they hate how we treat women". It's a whole lot closer to home. They hate the way they've been treated by representatives of US military and economic power.
[10:39] (freetrad3) in Iraq it was clearly at the whim of Saddam
[10:39] (Gosseyn) (the sanctions, the bombing runs, etc.)
[10:39] (TheCougar) please use nick complete:(
[10:39] (freetrad3) With no rule of law, you had no courts for recourse
[10:39] (Astrodog) TheCougar: If you insist.
[10:39] (Astrodog) Mr. TheC(Tab).
[10:39] (freetrad3) even Saudi Arabia with its horrible human rights record has courts at least.
[10:39] (rondd) heh
[10:40] (Gosseyn) freetrad3: if you can call Sharia courts "courts".
[10:40] * rondd high 5's astro
[10:40] (TheCougar) i'm not creating a billion highlights for people that can't use tab and want to talk to me:)
[10:40] (godfist) yea we instigated the capture of those american hostages in iran didn't we? (/sarcasm off)
[10:40] (freetrad3) Several activists have called for him to be purged from the Republican Party (given what the GOP stands for these days, perhaps that's not such a bad idea). One former staffer declared Paul an "embarrassment" and announced he'd challenge Paul for his seat in Congress.
[10:40] (freetrad3) That I disagree with 100%
[10:40] (shadoo) freetrad3: Bush doesn't follow the "rule of law" ever.
[10:40] (freetrad3) NOONE should be purged from the GOP except people calling for the PURGE of other people.
[10:40] (Gosseyn) godfist: actually, we did. We put Shah Reza Pahlavi into power in Iran decades earlier.
[10:40] (freetrad3) THE GOP Is a big tent and an open tent
[10:40] (Astrodog) TheCougar: You could do what I do... don't use highlights.
[10:40] (freetrad3) as much as I may not like a socialist in the GOP he has a right to be there.
[10:40] (Astrodog) FT: And its full of elephants!
[10:40] (godfist) gosseyn-oh well ...hrm
[10:41] (TheCougar) Astrodog: meaning not see what people are saying?:)
[10:41] (Astrodog) So, its like a Circus!
[10:41] (PickleWk) Ron Paul is going to get his ass handed to him at his own Congressional primary, I predict.
[10:41] (Gosseyn) Ron Paul, a socialist? Hardly.
[10:41] (godfist) gosseyn-let me guess...we put him in power to counter the soviet union?
[10:41] (l1bertine) Pickle: read this; http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,274174,00.html
[10:41] (l1bertine) redfish: ron paul
[10:41] (freetrad3) This quote from the article I think is more fair:
[10:41] (PickleWk) You don't do what he did and get re-elected in Texas, libertarian or not, Dr. No or not.
[10:41] (Gosseyn) godfist: don't we always use that excuse? :)
[10:41] (freetrad3) This is all patently absurd. Actually, it's offensive. No one knows precisely what morbid formula inspired the Sept. 11 attacks. Most likely, it was some mix of U.S. foreign policy exacerbating radical Islamists' already deep-seeded contempt for Western values.
[10:41] (l1bertine) Pickle: he told the truth; what is wrong with that?
[10:41] (freetrad3) I think that chapter is the most meaninful chapter in that oped peice
[10:42] (freetrad3) let me repeat:
[10:42] (freetrad3) This is all patently absurd. Actually, it's offensive. No one knows precisely what morbid formula inspired the Sept. 11 attacks. Most likely, it was some mix of U.S. foreign policy exacerbating radical Islamists' already deep-seeded contempt for Western values.
[10:42] (godfist) gosseyn-well i'm too lazy and uninformed to know exactly how we were supposed to fight the soviet unions so I won't criticize people for doing things i know little about
[10:42] (Gosseyn) l1bertine: "TRUTH? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH, Mr. Ghouliani!"
[10:42] * Gosseyn ducks.
[10:42] (godfist) unions=union
[10:42] (PickleWk) l1bertine: He fucked up his answer badly and worded it in such a way as to open himself up to being accused of blaming America for 9/11.
[10:42] (Gosseyn) (misspelling intentional)
[10:42] (freetrad3) I think thats a fact, NOONE knows PRECISELY what morbid formula inspired the attacks
[10:42] (l1bertine) Pickle: he did not blame american; but his words are right; actions have consequences.
[10:42] (l1bertine) america/typo
[10:42] (freetrad3) But it wasnt simply being in the middle east
[10:43] (Gosseyn) Ron Paul blamed a succession of US *administrations*, not the American *people*.
[10:43] (l1bertine) i imagine the bombing helps.
[10:43] (PickleWk) l1bertine: And he's compounded his error by not publicly disavowing Prisonplanet and all the other retard factions who've glommed onto him.
[10:43] (freetrad3) You might say it may not have happened had we closed our borders and not talked at all about muslim countries..
[10:43] (rondd) Gosseyn for you: Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by itsl
[10:43] (freetrad3) But if we even allowed comics of muhammad in major papers they woul have wanted to kill us
[10:43] (l1bertine) Pickle: it's not his job to attack people who agree with him.
[10:43] (freetrad3) This is who we are dealing with
[10:43] (Gosseyn) rondd: OW, MY HEAD.
[10:43] (rondd) but I bet you could read it....
[10:43] (PickleWk) l1bertine: You're damned right it is, depending on who those people are and what they stand for.
[10:43] (godfist) the muslims extremists were going to eventually attack america even if we had completely left them alone given their inherent anti-freedom ideology weren't they? sure maybe we aggravated the situation a whole lot but in the end they were still going to attack us
[10:43] (Gosseyn) rondd: but would I ever want to read it AGAIN?
[10:44] (freetrad3) And what right has Usama to take over weak small countries and subject them to his tyranny and use them as training bases for terrorism ?
[10:44] (godfist) and to prove my point
[10:44] (freetrad3) Terrorism is a world problem is it not ?
[10:44] (l1bertine) Pickle: so if the KKK came out and proclaimed support for an anti-immgration bill; it's up to the bill's sponsors to attack the KKK?
[10:44] (Gosseyn) godfist: there you go, giving the comic-book, attention-deficit explanation for why the Muslims "hate us". Please.
[10:44] (PickleWk) l1bertine: Absolutely.
[10:44] (Gosseyn) "they hate our FREEEEEDOM!"
[10:44] (Astrodog) l1b: Eh. Yes.
[10:44] (TSnow1) It's a world problem with an already created "worldly" solution
[10:44] (freetrad3) Or do we just ignore terrorism against Britains, Israelis, Lebanese, Japanese.. etc etc etc
[10:44] (l1bertine) Pickle: that seems time consuming.
[10:44] (Gosseyn) "they hate our MATERIALISM!"
[10:44] (PickleWk) l1bertine: Especially if they become the bill's *most prominent* supporters.
[10:44] (TSnow1) wait
[10:44] (TSnow1) here's a good one
[10:44] (godfist) look at what the muslims did back in what the 6th century when they tried to conquer the world the 1st time...they had done it BEFORE using the SAME ideology! its all history gosseyn, its right there!
[10:44] (TSnow1) "Thjey Hate our Freedoms"
[10:44] (freetrad3) America did not INVENT original sin.
[10:44] (TSnow1) ROFL
[10:44] (freetrad3) Im sorry
[10:45] (Gosseyn) "they hate the fact that American women aren't chattel!"
[10:45] (Gosseyn) puhleeze.
[10:45] (l1bertine) Pickle: i thought libertarians where the most prominent supporters in paul's case.
[10:45] (freetrad3) America did not INVENT human frailty nor evil.
[10:45] (godfist) but no wait i'm sure someone aggravted the situation back then too gosseyn, please tell us your excuse for that one
[10:45] (rondd) We did invent the internet though
[10:45] (freetrad3) If you listented to some libertarians and I am a bit of a libertarian myself, you would think american created man and created man evil..
[10:46] (godfist) yea if the muslims are doing these terrorists attacks SOLELY because of what we did to them, then explain the bombings in bali and london?
[10:46] (PickleWk) l1bertine: It may be, but it's necessary to avoid being lumped in with them and having the same thing happen to your legislation. Whether you like it or not, most people consider who you keep company with to be a valid indicator of who you are and what you represent.
[10:46] (godfist) and many other places which i can't think of right now
[10:46] (l1bertine) in london's case; they are in iraq; hell - they helped create iraq.
[10:46] (godfist) and indonesia?
[10:46] (Gosseyn) godfist: Islam has always been a warrior's religion. Plain and simple. Because it's a "warrior's religion", it needs to engender discipline in its followers, not love for their fellow man.
[10:46] (godfist) africa?
[10:46] (l1bertine) britan's history of intenventionist activity in the middle east i hard to deny.
[10:46] (l1bertine) i/is
[10:47] (godfist) sudan?
[10:47] (godfist) any answer for those?
[10:47] (Astrodog) TheCougar: I see what people say.
[10:47] (Astrodog) Well
[10:47] (godfist) russia?
[10:47] (Astrodog) Not when I scroll up, and forget.
[10:47] (Astrodog) :P
[10:47] (l1bertine) you're lumping them all together with those who hate us, bad logic.
[10:47] (PickleWk) l1bertine: No way. Libertarians have now taken a back seat to Truthers, Prisonplanet freaks, and Democraticunderground nuts who have been spamming polls, attacking blogs, and even calling into talk radio shows to associate their rubbish with him.
[10:47] (l1bertine) do all muslims revolutionaries hate the U.S.?
[10:47] (godfist) you haven't answered the question
[10:47] (TSnow1) Old europe Still runs the world, but through proxy of certain positioning of power in the U.S. federal government, they want to integrate us into a world community
[10:48] (l1bertine) why would Truthers back Ron Paul? Ron Paul's message is NOT compatible with Truther B/S
[10:48] (Astrodog) Every time I hear "Truthers", I snicker.
[10:48] (freetrad3) America didnt carve up the middle east
[10:48] (l1bertine) Ron Paul said muslims did it, Truthers say, US Gov did it.
[10:48] (freetrad3) Britain and France did
[10:48] (l1bertine) you can't have both
[10:48] (PickleWk) And they've been doing these things in Paul's name. For Paul's part, he's failed to even notice most of it, let alone repudiate them.
[10:48] (godfist) ok sure england got what was coming i can see that
[10:48] (Astrodog) Pickle: He doesn't appear to notice much.
[10:48] (godfist) but not these other places
[10:48] (godfist) they hate freedom
[10:48] (TSnow1) Wait a minute
[10:48] (godfist) that is why they attacked indonseia
[10:48] (godfist) indonesia
[10:48] (TSnow1) guiliani can't be president anyway
[10:48] (godfist) but africa
[10:48] (godfist) sudan
[10:48] (TSnow1) he was knighted by the queen of england
[10:48] (godfist) that country has no freedom
[10:49] (godfist) and they STILL attacked!
[10:49] (TWThomas) Guiliani can be President
[10:49] (godfist) what the hell did sudan ever do to the terrorists?
[10:49] (godfist) riddle me that
[10:49] (Astrodog) god: Thus the problem with large groups of angry young guys.
[10:49] (TSnow1) he was knighted by the queen of england
[10:49] (TSnow1) HE Can't
[10:49] (Astrodog) They just like to blow shit up, in the end.
[10:49] (TSnow1) just like GW shouldn't be
[10:49] (godfist) astro-yep
[10:49] (godfist) dont forget the rape squads
[10:49] (TSnow1) bill Clinton was too
[10:49] (TSnow1) one worlders
[10:49] (TWThomas) TSnow1 : Congress can reject his Knighthood
[10:49] (PickleWk) Mark my word: Ron Paul is going to stand as an example of the fact that the support of the "netroots" can be a double-edged sword.
[10:49] (godfist) so sudan shows my point perfectly
[10:50] (TSnow1) all knighted by thy queen
[10:50] (godfist) you dont have to do a THING to the terrorists..and eventually they will attack you ANYWAY.
[10:50] (TWThomas) TSnow1 : Clinton wasn't a Knight before he went into Office Clinton got Knighted after he left the Presidency
[10:50] (godfist) so all your rubbish about we did it to ourselves with their attacks is TOTALLY BOGUS
[10:50] (v0dka) terrorists just have sand in their vaginas
[10:50] (godfist) lol
[10:51] (TWThomas) TSnow1 : Guiliani got Knighted after he left the Mayorship of New York City
[10:51] (godfist) ak47's wont jam if you get sand in them i hear
[10:51] (godfist) amazing stuff
[10:51] (godfist) ak47's...did middle easterners invent that gun?
[10:51] (godfist) or was that russia?
[10:51] (v0dka) russia
[10:51] (TWThomas) TSnow1 : I want you to concede that you don't know shit about what your talking about
[10:51] (v0dka) automat kalashnikov
[10:51] (v0dka) model 47
[10:52] (godfist) ah it was russia
[10:52] (fone`) the most deadly weapon in human history.. the ak47
[10:52] (godfist) see wikipeida isn't 100% lies
[10:52] (godfist) wikipedia
[10:52] (fone`) has killed more people than the atom bomb
[10:52] (TWThomas) TSnow1 : I want you to concede that you don't know shit about what your talking about
[10:52] (PickleWk) Paul is getting some bad advice from his handlers, who appear to be telling people who complain about all the Truther nuts doing blogswarms in his name to basically piss off and die.
[10:52] (godfist) fone-wow didn't know that
[10:53] (v0dka) fone`: I disagree
[10:53] (v0dka) most deadly weapon: the projectile
[10:53] (godfist) so how did all those russian made ak47's end up in so many other countries hands...oh yea...international arm dealers out of russia
[10:53] (TWThomas) TSnow1 : please talk
[10:53] (Astrodog) fone: Most weapons have killed more people than the atom bomb.
[10:53] (v0dka) or even
[10:53] (v0dka) the weapon
[10:53] (Astrodog) v0dka: "Pointy things"
[10:53] (v0dka) godfist: because they were cheap to make and cheap to buy
[10:53] (godfist) seriously
[10:53] (fone`) haha...
[10:53] (Astrodog) And "Explody things"
[10:53] (v0dka) easy to make too
[10:53] (fone`) as a single specific weapon its the most deadly
[10:53] (v0dka) afghanistan et all picked up a lot of them during the soviet afghan war
[10:54] (Astrodog) fone: I wonder how many people swords have killed.
[10:54] (TWThomas) TSnow1 : Hello
[10:54] (godfist) for all the talk about how nuclear brinkmanship is so wrong and killed so many people...i mean 1 original atom bomb was dropped and a few variants and the hydrogen bomb were tested and that's about it...
[10:54] (godfist) ok 2 original atom bombs
[10:54] (fone`) i highly doubt nearly as many as the ak astro
[10:54] (godfist) 2 japanese cities forgot
[10:54] (v0dka) nobody ever remembers nagasaki
[10:54] (fone`) due to how much larger the population is today if nothin else astro
[10:55] (godfist) More AK rifles have been produced than any other assault rifle; production continues to this day
[10:55] (godfist) 0_0
[10:55] (godfist) vodka-yea hiroshim is the 1st word out of their mouths heh
[10:55] (fone`) when you start adding in all the africans killed in civil war and the majority of them buy ak47 in the last 40 years its pretty staggering
[10:55] (fone`) heh
[10:55] (Astrodog) god: Total, there have been a few thousand nuclear tests.
[10:55] (Astrodog) 1,054 by the US 715 by Russia, 210 by France, 45 by the UK, and 45 by China.
[10:55] (fone`) im not sayin the ak is evil or anything.. just highly used.. heh
[10:56] (v0dka) 45 by china?
[10:56] (godfist) yes but how many of those tests ended up killing people? i hear if made correctly nuclear bombs dont have alot of fallout..only 5% of the nevada test range is still radioactive
[10:56] (v0dka) they don't even have that many active, combat ready nukes
[10:56] (TWThomas) TSnow1 wouldn't know the Truth if it was a atomic bomb preparing to be dropped on his location
[10:56] (PickleWk) Paul could have said that, as the vanguard of liberty across the world, America has attracted enemies who hate freedom, who are determined to launch attacks such as 9/11, and that he has a different way. Then Giuliani couldn't have gone on his faux-outrage tear at Paul's expense, and thousands of anti-American morons wouldn't be ruining Paul's reputation through their association with him.
[10:56] (v0dka) china sucks
[10:56] (Astrodog) vodka: They have way more nukes than that. But they don't have that many ICMBs.
[10:56] (v0dka) im glad we can all agree on that
[10:56] (arcade-) godfist: Depends on the kind of nuke, and whether the tests were in the air or beneath the ground.
[10:56] (Astrodog) ICBMs.
[10:56] (Astrodog) From the first nuclear test in 1945 until tests by Pakistan in 1998, there was never a period of more than 22 months with no nuclear testing. June 1998 to October 2006, when North Korea reported a successful underground nuclear test, was the longest period since 1945 with no acknowledged nuclear tests.
[10:56] (fone`) though i think people that arm countries that know the guns are going to children are evil
[10:56] (Astrodog) Graph of nuclear testing (North Korea not yet shown).
[10:56] (TSnow1) How is the United era world Order Crap Website going?
[10:56] (v0dka) Astrodog: they have about 5 ICBMS
[10:56] (Astrodog) II thought that was kinda nifty.
[10:56] (v0dka) no nuclear subs or SSBNs or SLBMs
[10:57] (v0dka) no early warning system
[10:57] (v0dka) I don't think they have any SCUDs
[10:57] (Astrodog) v0dka: 20 or so, with a few hundred expected in the next 10 years.
[10:57] (Astrodog) Uh.
[10:57] (Astrodog) China has 1 SSBN.
[10:57] (v0dka) no way
[10:57] (Astrodog) Yeah.
[10:57] (godfist) scuds aren't nuclear!
[10:57] (Astrodog) Han class.
[10:57] (godfist) ssbn=)?
[10:57] (PickleWk) But, Paul fucked up. He fucked up and it's not only going to cost him, it's going to cost a lot of libertarian-minded folks a good champion.
[10:57] (v0dka) godfist: they can be
[10:57] (v0dka) ssbn = nuclear sub
[10:57] (arcade-) godfist: Uhm, they can be?
[10:57] (v0dka) slbm = missile from a nuclear sub
[10:57] (godfist) ah
[10:57] (TSnow1) Nah
[10:57] (PickleWk) That last bit is what pisses me off.
[10:57] (fone`) reading a book about that right now.. story of a kid that got caught up in the civil war in sierra leone
[10:57] (godfist) oh sorry
[10:57] (TWThomas) TSnow1 : http://users.vnet.net/timmywt/ (----- Please Refer to this
[10:57] (TSnow1) the best thing Paul did was speak some truth
[10:57] (fone`) the most depressing book ive ever read
[10:57] (godfist) i only know scubs from gulf war I :/
[10:58] (TSnow1) reality hits
[10:58] (godfist) SCUDs even
[10:58] (fone`) the gun runners for that sorta thing = evil imo
[10:58] (arcade-) godfist: SCUD is only a type of missile. They can carry a variety of payloads, as can many other missiles.
[10:58] (Astrodog) v0dka: China has a few thousand missiles that easily outclass SCUDs, that are nuclear capibile.
[10:58] (v0dka) nuclear capable
[10:59] (Astrodog) v0dka: They have 1 SSBN, with, I think its 16 SLBMs.
[10:59] (v0dka) too bad they don't have enough nukes to tip them all
[10:59] (Astrodog) And they're estimated to have ~500-1,000 nuclear warheads.
[10:59] (shadoo) any missile is nuclear capable
[10:59] (Astrodog) shadoo: Sidewinders aren't.
[10:59] (v0dka) Astrodog: 12 SLBMs
[10:59] (Astrodog) :P
[10:59] (v0dka) if this page is correct
[10:59] (shadoo) bs
[10:59] (godfist) arcade-yea come to think of it i remember a guy talking about either the trident or ohio class nuclear submarines...they can even launch like cement blocks high into the atomsphere and when they come down they hit so hard its just like an explosive bomb going off..or so I intuited from what he said
[10:59] (v0dka) Astrodog: actually there are nuclear AA missiles
[10:59] (Astrodog) v0dka: Could very well be. I knew it was more than 10, and less than 20.
[10:59] (Astrodog) v0dka: Yes.
[10:59] (v0dka) meant to destroy large fleets
[10:59] (v0dka) back in the day
[10:59] (Astrodog) But Sidewinder is not one of them.
[11:00] (pilgrim`) A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Drink deeply or not at all."
[11:00] (Astrodog) And couldn't carry a nuke.
[11:00] (Astrodog) :P
[11:00] (PickleWk) The "truth" that Paul spoke is going to cost him not only the Presidential nomination, but probably his seat in Congress. Which means we lose a solid libertarian. How the fuck was that the best thing he did?
[11:00] (arcade-) godfist: Think of it like this .. what happens if a 1m^2 meteorite strikes ground? :P
[11:00] (shadoo) astrodog:ok
[11:00] (v0dka) what did paul do
[11:00] (l1bertine) I doubt paul will lose his district.
[11:00] (TWThomas) TSnow1 : mich allein bitte lassen. Deine Unterhaltung in den Kreisen ist eine Störung. Sie ist wie das Gehen um den Block und das Hören eines anderen Vogels und sein eine Störung.
[11:01] (shadoo) this is an english bord
[11:01] (patch6) "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell
[11:01] (shadoo) 1984
[11:01] * godfist has taken a sip from many areas of knowledge because he needs to know..but sometimes that knowledge is scary and he runs from it
[11:01] (godfist) er WANTS to know
[11:02] (godfist) not needs heh
[11:02] (TWThomas) Drinking Tea from my Tim Cup :-)
[11:02] (shadoo) pach6:brilliant
[11:02] (TSnow1) Pickle Wk, your looking at it from the wrong point of view
[11:02] (TSnow1) Federal Policies have consequences
[11:03] (TSnow1) federal gov't is fallible
[11:03] (TSnow1) including the executive
[11:03] (patch6) shadoo: it seemed appropriate
[11:03] (l1bertine) someone needs to re-make "The Prisoner"
[11:03] (v0dka) what did paul do?
[11:03] (PickleWk) l1bertine: I think he will. The Republicans have been trying to get a new nominee in for years, and now it looks like there's going to be at least one new contender for the job.
[11:04] (TSnow1) The Federal government and iit's ideas's is NOT the total representation of American and It's ideals.
[11:04] (TSnow1) Problem is
[11:04] (PickleWk) Stupid statements have consequences, too.
[11:04] (TSnow1) people lump support for government with support of country
[11:04] (TSnow1) which is invalid
[11:04] (shadoo) true
[11:05] (TSnow1) Especially
[11:05] (TSnow1) when congress and the executive is selling out American infrastructure
[11:05] (TSnow1) for the more global view
[11:06] (godfist) you people in here who are implying that we brought 9/11 on ourselves...if the muslims were going to respond to our military affront on their soil...they would'nt have attacked innocent civlians who were not to blame for 30+ years of governmental action...they would have attacked military targets
[11:06] (TWThomas) TSnow1 : thats enough of the Riff Raff ! get down to how you really feel !
[11:06] (TSnow1) WE
[11:06] (TSnow1) your using WE
[11:06] (shadoo) godfist:they hit the pentagon, didn't they ?
[11:07] (godfist) that's only 1/2 of the attack
[11:07] (TSnow1) (TSnow1) people lump support for government with support of country
[11:07] (godfist) and they were going for the white house
[11:07] (godfist) AND the world trade center
[11:07] (TWThomas) *sings* Mike & The Mechanics "When you Walk in the Room"
[11:07] (TSnow1) (TSnow1) The Federal government and iit's ideas's is NOT the total representation of American and It's ideals.
[11:07] (TWThomas) TSnow1 : not good enough!
[11:07] (TSnow1) WE is fallible
[11:07] (godfist) yes you're helping my arguemnt tsnow
[11:07] (shadoo) Like Jean Chretien said, it's not our war.
[11:07] (godfist) the people in the wtc weren't responsible for what our govt did to the terrorists
[11:07] (e-Hernick) TWT: Indeed! We need to Karcherize the Dregs and the Riff-Raff away!
[11:08] (TSnow1) wilsonian interventionism
[11:08] (TWThomas) Jean Chretien is where He is the Former Prime Minister of Canada isn't he ?
[11:08] (TSnow1) such a liberal ideal
[11:08] (e-Hernick) TWT: Correct.
[11:09] (e-Hernick) TWT: He's retired quietly before a storm of political scandal.
[11:09] (e-Hernick) TWT: And now his party has lost their grip over the canadian federal government.
[11:09] (TWThomas) We got a great Prime Minister named Stephen Harper
[11:09] (e-Hernick) We?
[11:09] (TSnow1) WE
[11:09] (e-Hernick) You're canadian now?
[11:09] (TSnow1) Rofl
[11:09] (TSnow1) Stephen Harper
[11:09] (TSnow1) another one pushing the north american union
[11:09] (TSnow1) b00
[11:10] (PickleWk) If by "political scandal" you mean "lots of people would like to beat him with a stick", well... Okay.
[11:10] (TWThomas) e-Hernick : I feel like it. I can watch The National and BBC :-)
[11:10] (godfist) and lets be clear, the terrorists have NEVER intetionally targeted military targets...they just happened to hit the pentagon because they knew that would create the most fear and destruction against ALL of america, not just the military
[11:10] (e-Hernick) TWT: You get the CBC over-the-air since you're close to the canadian border?
[11:10] (shadoo) Harper sucks
[11:10] (e-Hernick) so do you like Peter Mansbridge?
[11:10] (TWThomas) e-Hernick : I watch it through a webstream
[11:11] (godfist) and if they had hit the white house and killed our president, they day after that would you be so eager to get on stage at his funeral ceremony and point the finger of blame on america? yea i bet you would
[11:11] (godfist) they=the
[11:11] (shadoo) Harper cowtows to Bush on the one hand, and sticks it to Canadians financially on the other
[11:11] (Tailor) But Harper is better than what the Canadians had.
[11:11] (TWThomas) e-Hernick : I like his style. I got use to it. He seems like a persistant reporter.
[11:11] (shadoo) Harper's an American puppet, unlike Chretien
[11:12] (Tailor) Or so I'm told.
[11:12] (shadoo) His main toolis legitimation.
[11:12] (Tailor) An American puppet? That's simply stupid.
[11:12] (shadoo) legitimation, get it ?
[11:12] (TWThomas) e-Hernick : I like Eddie Izzard also you know who he is right ?
[11:12] (shadoo) look it up
[11:12] (e-Hernick) some kind of comedian, right?
[11:13] (TWThomas) e-Hernick : yes
[11:13] (TSnow1) he's a Lizard
[11:13] (Tailor) TWThomas, you spelled lizzard wrong again
[11:13] (shadoo) Tailor: you must be American
[11:13] (e-Hernick) Well, I don't see the link between that Izzard person and Peter Mansbridge.
[11:13] (TSnow1) A friut loop lizard from the planet snickle snack
[11:13] (TWThomas) e-Hernick : He is a Pro-European Union Person
[11:13] (Tailor) shadoo, why must I be?
[11:13] (e-Hernick) because otherwise you'd spell your nick "Tailour"
[11:13] (TSnow1) EU sucks
[11:13] (Tailor) haha
[11:13] (shadoo) Tailor: because you don't undersrtand Marxian terminology.
[11:14] (Tailor) ok, I'm an America, I've been found out by a spelling issue!
[11:14] (TSnow1) wow
[11:14] (TSnow1) who's the fellow traveler now
[11:14] (shadoo) so should I, lol
[11:14] (TSnow1) rofl
[11:14] (Tailor) shadoo, I understand Mark had an unworkable theory.
[11:14] (pilgrim`) Tailor does that colur your perspective, not being at the centre of the English speaking world/
[11:14] (TWThomas) I am very Pro-European Union now since the Labour Party likes my ideas
[11:14] (TSnow1) "If one understands that socialism is not a share-the-wealth programme, but is in reality a method to consolidate and control the wealth, then the seeming paradox of super-rich men promoting socialism becomes no paradox at all. Instead, it becomes logical, even the perfect tool of power-seeking megalomaniacs. Communism or more accurately, socialism, is not a movement of the downtrodden masses, but of the economic elite." - Gary Allen
[11:15] (Tailor) pilgrim`, help! A canadian is after me!
[11:15] (TSnow1) TWT, Did you get your acceptance plaque from the World Federalist Association Yet?
[11:15] (Tailor) pilgrim`, he may shoot a rubber band at me!
[11:15] (pilgrim`) Marxism...a religon invented by a fool to entertain a lunatic
[11:16] (shadoo) Tailor: legitimaion refers to the way politicians try to appear morally correct in order to win public support
[11:16] (TWThomas) TSnow1 : funny poor poor me ! I am damn by the devil in the pale moon light !
[11:17] (shadoo) Marxism 's main hypothesis is that materiality determines ideology
[11:17] (godfist) If one understands that capitalism is not a survival-of-the-fittest programme, but is in reality a method to consolidate and control the wealth by those fittest enough to survive in a capitalistic society, namely the most greed and corrupt, then the idea of fairness in such a system being a farce is no problem at all" - Me
[11:17] (TSnow1) Nah, just an InterNut
[11:17] (shadoo) godfist: correct
[11:18] (shadoo) now we're getting somewhere
[11:18] (Tailor) shadoo, I don't do well with mumbo jumbo, get to the root of what you are trying to say, why is Harper worse than the previous guy, the wannabe Frenchman (who of course the French think was a bumpkin).
[11:18] (godfist) why do so many people involved in politics on the right side of the aisle ignore the vast number of corporate monopolies in this country?
[11:19] (PickleWk) When did you stop beating your wife?
[11:19] (godfist) oil, pharmaceuticals, food, you nam eit
[11:19] (e-Hernick) Who are you calling a Wannabe frenchman anyway?
[11:19] (PickleWk) Have you?
[11:19] (Tailor) Corporate monopolies?
[11:19] (e-Hernick) Martin? Chretien?
[11:19] (Tailor) godfist, can you expand on that?
[11:19] (TWThomas) TSnow1 : I got a woman now ! I have many things. I don't have the time to do the old beating around the bush bit.
[11:19] (shadoo) Tailor: he's running a minority government, promotes anachronistic concervative ideas, and loves Bush. That's enough
[11:19] (SonOfSpam) bbiab... chinese food time
[11:19] (pilgrim`) godfist ignore? I buy stock in them
[11:20] (godfist) [10:17] (PickleWk) When did you stop beating your wife? (----that's a fair question if you are indeed beating your wife
[11:20] (Tailor) PickleWk, is that true what shadoo is saying?
[11:20] (shadoo) I'm going out for a smoke.
[11:20] (PickleWk) Of course, under a capitalist regime, "the wealth" is not controlled, or consolidated, or even limited to a finite amount, thus eliminating the "the".
[11:20] (Tailor) Oh sure, run off
[11:20] (pilgrim`) did you know...many surnames come from professions and, that most professiosn had symbols to make up for illiteracy; 3 balls- pawn shop, striped poll: barber, etc?
[11:20] (godfist) you're wrong
[11:20] (godfist) there is a finite amount
[11:20] (godfist) oh
[11:20] (TSnow1) distribution of wealth sucks
[11:21] (TSnow1) reality
[11:21] (pilgrim`) now do you know that a shrub planted in front of the front door was the sign of a wine merchant?
[11:21] (TWThomas) This man name Phil Spector has problems
[11:21] (godfist) unless you're talking about the federal reserve which prints its own money and has corrupted our economy
[11:21] (pilgrim`) and is the origin of the surname: Bush
[11:21] (godfist) capitalists and their imaginary "infinite wealth" concept...what a cop out
[11:21] (godfist) only way they have to try and prove that capitalism is somehow better than socialism
[11:21] (PickleWk) On the other hand, while godfist's modification is absolute nonsense, the Gary Allen quote is 100% correct, speaking as a profess