[00:01] (rightoooo) Eeyore a classic leftie would not be fond of Merkel , i reall like her :)

[00:00] (rightoooo) Eeyore the farm equipment, big machines etc were taken away by the farmers when tehy left
[00:00] (Eeyore) rightoooo you are a classic leftie. your reaoning smells like patchouli oil and your a cultureal and moral relativist., this defines left
[00:00] (Eeyore) rightoooo yes the white farmers took thier giant combines with them to thier new condominiums in downtown amsterdamn
[00:00] (occ) people misunderstand moral relativism
[00:01] (rightoooo) Eeyore a classic leftie would not be fond of Merkel , i reall like her :)
[00:01] (rightoooo) really
[00:01] (rightoooo) i didnt like Schröder that much
[00:02] (occ) him and his damn mini-piano
[00:02] (Eeyore) occ please allow me to send you an astonishningly good essay on culturel relativsim if I may
[00:02] (rightoooo) one of the few things i give Schröder credit for is that he didnt participate in the Iraq War
[00:02] (occ) i guess, Eeyore
[00:02] (Eeyore) rightoooo and give lots of credit to France as well as bioth nations took huge bribes from Sadamn when he was violating his oil for food programs.
[00:03] (bud-) rightoooo because your country was weak and gallable enough to be bought off, and the journalists also paid to teach you all how evil america is towards the peaceful iraq regime
[00:03] (bud-) arent you fucking ashamed that happened to/in your country?
[00:03] (occ) which countries are we talking about, again?
[00:03] (rightoooo) bud what are you talking about
[00:03] (rightoooo) bud have you ever been to Germany?
[00:03] * overoger is now known as occpmme
[00:04] (bud-) why yes i have. my sister was stationed there
[00:04] (rightoooo) bud how did she /did you like it
[00:04] (occ) ive, er, been to germany
[00:04] (bud-) rightoooo you know im a dual usa/eu citizen right?
[00:04] * occpmme is now known as overoger
[00:04] (occ) like, not at a military base -- actually been there.
[00:04] (rightoooo) bud no i didnt
[00:04] (occ) heh
[00:04] (rightoooo) bud what european country
[00:04] (bud-) rightoooo now answer me.. arent you ashamed your country is so weak and corrupt that it could be bought off paid by a tyrant?
[00:05] (rightoooo) bud again, what are you talking about?
[00:05] (bud-) and the journalists being paid to write all the propaganda people such as yourself STILL SPEW is all well documented
[00:05] (rightoooo) bud where have you gat that loony idea from?
[00:05] (rightoooo) got
[00:05] * overoger is now known as paul71
[00:06] (bud-) poor ignorant leftie
[00:06] (davtek) we nuking slims yet?
[00:06] (rightoooo) bud show me where you got that strange informations from
[00:07] (Eeyore) rightoooo its well documented that Germany France and the UN where bought off by Sadamn mostly for chits for cheap oil
[00:08] (rightoooo) Eeyore give me evidence
[00:08] (Eeyore) rightoooo your kidding right? why pretend this is the first time you have been told this? its not even the first time today I bet
[00:08] (Eeyore) google oil for food scandal
[00:08] (Eeyore) and book a week off work to read it all
[00:08] (occ) in my country...CAR DRIVE YOU!
[00:09] (bud-) do you selectively choose your news or what, doesnt get reported.. how the hell could you have not heard about the corruption which your country was a part of in the oil for food scandal, the journalists being bought off to write the stories, the corps/govt in your country striking secret deals
[00:09] (Eeyore) http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,353585,00.html
[00:10] (bud-) german business was given HUGE favors in exchange for going against the yanks
[00:10] (Eeyore) http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,173707,00.html
[00:10] (bud-) ashamed?
[00:10] (Eeyore) http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,173707,00.html
[00:10] (occ) what the fuck is this noise from the AC
[00:10] (Eeyore) http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec04/oil-for-food_12-3.html
[00:10] (occ) its like someone rapping...rapping, rapping at my chamber door!
[00:11] (occ) (really!)
[00:11] (Eeyore) http://www.rogerlsimon.com/mt-archives/2004/10/the_subject_abo.php
[00:11] (Eeyore) Even what we know of Oil-for-Food right now... and there's undoubtedly a lot more to come... shows us that these same allies - notably the French, Russians and to a lesser extent the Germans - were, throughout the run-up to the War in Iraq, nothing but profiteers off Saddam. They were and to a great extent still are, as Orwell put it in an only slightly different context,"objectively pro-fascist."
[00:11] (occ) http://www.orisinal.com
[00:11] (Eeyore) from that last link
[00:12] (occ) thats the best flash games, ever
[00:12] (occ) i just read 1984
[00:12] (occ) like...3 times
[00:12] (occ) i was short on books
[00:13] (Eeyore) orwell should be being read by everyone today more so than maybe ever before
[00:13] (occ) i kinda prefer animal farm
[00:13] (bud-) you had iraq rewarding the german govt for going against the americans by doing favors for german exporters, you had journalists bought and paid for by a tyrant filling the newspapers over there with the talking points STILL USED against the war in iraq
[00:13] (occ) just because its simpler and more to the point, i guess
[00:13] (occ) ...and really, its the same story
[00:14] (Eeyore) yes occ
[00:14] (occ) 1984 gets a little bogged down, especially at the end
[00:14] (Eeyore) and animal farm is more fun to read
[00:14] (rightoooo) Eeyore "It has also been alleged that the American government was aware of the scandal and chose to not prevent the smuggling because their allies Turkey and Jordan benefited from the majority of the smuggled oil."
[00:14] (occ) yah
[00:14] (Eeyore) which makes it more usefull
[00:14] (occ) animal farm is like...
[00:14] (occ) definitely his masterpiece
[00:14] (rightoooo) Eeyore "US Senator Carl Levin (D-Michigan) is quoted in an interview for the New York Times as saying, "There is no question that the bulk of the illicit oil revenues came from the open sale of Iraqi oil to Jordan and to Turkey, and that that was a way of going around the Oil-for-Food Programme [and that] we were fully aware of the bypass and looked the other way."[41]"
[00:14] (Eeyore) rightoooo yes lets make it Bush's fauykt somehow that Sadamn was paying off Germany
[00:14] (occ) (and i cant find my fucking copy!)
[00:15] (Eeyore) rightoooo oh yes so its the US's fault now. gotcha :*)
[00:15] (Eeyore) brb
[00:15] (occ) i think 1984 woulda been alot more shocking if i'd read it when it was first written
[00:15] (occ) rather than, er, like well after 1984 ;)
[00:16] (bud-) *FART*
[00:17] (Eeyore) rightoooo I guess since the US also allowed Hitler to come to power and didnt take him out with a cruise missile when he was in grade school makes WW2 Bush's fault
[00:17] (rightoooo) Eeyore to imply that the german government was not fond of a war with Iraq because of some companies making illegal deals unsubstantial
[00:17] (rightoooo) is
[00:17] (bud-) rightoooo got duped
[00:17] (bud-) by a tyrant
[00:18] (Eeyore) no actually Germany just needed to show support for the ending of the Baathist regime. they would not have had to send troops. but thier opinion had been paid off like Canada France etc.
[00:18] (rightoooo) Eeyore no, im not saying the US is resoponsible, i say that many dubious things happened when we look at the OIl-for-Food scandal
[00:18] (Eeyore) bud- no rightoooo wasnt duped by Sadamn he is duped by the bad logic of moral and cultural relativism
[00:18] (bud-) rightoooo you getting duped being one of them
[00:18] (Eeyore) rightoooo not dubious WRONG and Germany and France are chief culprits
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wheats all dis Hollerin in heerr im tryen to SLEEP!!!!!
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wun uf yew Teurds is abauyt ta geyt smackd in da mouth.....
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wheats all dis Hollerin in heerr im tryen to SLEEP!!!!!
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wun uf yew Teurds is abauyt ta geyt smackd in da mouth.....
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wheats all dis Hollerin in heerr im tryen to SLEEP!!!!!
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wun uf yew Teurds is abauyt ta geyt smackd in da mouth.....
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wheats all dis Hollerin in heerr im tryen to SLEEP!!!!!
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wun uf yew Teurds is abauyt ta geyt smackd in da mouth.....
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wheats all dis Hollerin in heerr im tryen to SLEEP!!!!!
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wun uf yew Teurds is abauyt ta geyt smackd in da mouth.....
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wheats all dis Hollerin in heerr im tryen to SLEEP!!!!!
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wun uf yew Teurds is abauyt ta geyt smackd in da mouth.....
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wheats all dis Hollerin in heerr im tryen to SLEEP!!!!!
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wun uf yew Teurds is abauyt ta geyt smackd in da mouth.....
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wheats all dis Hollerin in heerr im tryen to SLEEP!!!!!
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wun uf yew Teurds is abauyt ta geyt smackd in da mouth.....
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wheats all dis Hollerin in heerr im tryen to SLEEP!!!!!
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wun uf yew Teurds is abauyt ta geyt smackd in da mouth.....
[00:19] (ColdFlo) Wheats all dis Hollerin in heerr im tryen to SLEEP!!!!!
[00:19] (rightoooo) Eeyore germany never was fond of Hussein, but we opposed the way of getting rid of him
[00:19] (Eeyore) hahahaha
[00:20] (Eeyore) yes we dont like the man but we think he shoudl die of natural causes while comfortably in power.
[00:20] (rightoooo) Eeyore not necessarily
[00:20] (rightoooo) Eeyore but what about helping opposition?
[00:20] (Eeyore) rightoooo the books are in evidence. GERMANY WAS PAID OFF. sorry chum
[00:21] (rightoooo) Eeyore trying to get the people to rise up themselves
[00:21] (Eeyore) rightoooo germany didnt do that either
[00:21] (Eeyore) and that would have been a good strtegy. Bush Sr. did that in fact
[00:21] (Eeyore) which is WHY Sadamn dried up the marsh and killed all the marsh arabs
[00:21] (rightoooo) Eeyore i find teh claim that the german government oppsed teh Iraq war because of some companies acting illegal unsubstantial
[00:21] (Eeyore) rightoooo you need to read more about what actually happened
[00:22] (Eeyore) rightoooo you dont find it at all yet. I did one google search and found TONS of stuff on it. why dont you try actually looking?
[00:22] (Eeyore) could somoene else PLEASE take over this tennis match with rightoooo? its giving me carpel tunnel going around the same points over and over
[00:22] (rightoooo) fox news is not a reliable news source
[00:22] (rightoooo) the spiegel link was dead
[00:23] (Eeyore) of course not. they dont reflect reality as you need it to be
[00:23] (rightoooo) i didnt find soemthing about Germany in teh PBS part
[00:24] (rightoooo) sorry , im not convinced
[00:24] (Eeyore) ok then.
[00:24] (Eeyore) next?
[00:24] (rightoooo) lets clam down
[00:25] (rightoooo) calm
[00:25] (rightoooo) we already woke up ColdFlo
[00:25] (Eeyore) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil-for-Food_Programme
[00:25] (rightoooo) we dont want to drag in more sleepless maniacs
[00:25] * Eeyore reads for the fun of it unsubstantial stuff on Germany's coruption
[00:27] (rightoooo) Eeyore , search for the word "Germany" in that article, you will only find it once , in the external links section ) "Transparency Germany"
[00:27] (rightoooo) heh
[00:27] (bud-) a free thinking person really doesnt need to invest much time seeing what happened rightoooo
[00:27] (rightoooo) i love it
[00:28] (bud-) google.de eh
[00:28] (Eeyore) While Benon Sevan was in charge of the program, he stonewalled efforts to review and investigate the program. [5] He ordered his staff that complaints about illegal payoffs should be formally filed with the whistleblower's country, making them public and allowing Iraq to bar any whistleblowers. In 2000, Dileep Nair, the UN corruption watchdog, wanted to determine the program's level of vulnerability. Sevan, along with UN Deputy Secreta
[00:29] (Eeyore) Until 2001, the money for the Oil-for-Food Programme transited through the BNP Paribas bank, whose main private share-holder is Iraqi-born Nadhmi Auchi, a man estimated to be worth about $1 billion according to Forbes, and ranks 13th in Britain according to The Guardian. Auchi received a 15-month suspended sentence for his involvement in the Elf scandal, which has been qualified by the British newspaper as "the biggest fraud inquiry in
[00:30] (rightoooo) ok what has this to do with Germany opposing teh Iraq War
[00:31] (bud-) germany was complicit
[00:31] (rightoooo) bud you didnt show me an evidence
[00:31] (rightoooo) any
[00:32] (rightoooo) its just a weird thought you got to explain why Germany opposed the war
[00:32] (Eeyore) The president of Oilexco Ltd, Arthur Millholland, whose name also appeared on the al Mada, list denied any wrongdoing, but confirms the charges that illegal surcharges were being paid to the Iraqi government by contractors. [11] However, the al Mada list does not discuss bribes paid to Iraq - it discusses bribes paid to individuals so that they would support Iraq. Few deny that in Iraq, like in many third-world countries, bribes and ki
[00:32] (bud-) Eeyore just FYI all those are getting cut off before the interesting bits lol
[00:33] (Eeyore) The US-funded satellite network Al Hurra broadcast a story on January 6, 2005 detailing allegations that Saddam's regime had bribed news reporters with oil coupons. Reporters named include Ahmed Mansour of Al Jazeera and Hamida Naanaa, a writer based in France and known for her pro-Saddam slant. Two types of oil coupons were used: silver coupons that entitled holders to nine million barrels of oil, and gold coupons that were worth more
[00:33] (Eeyore) bud- dang
[00:33] (Eeyore) well Im pasting from the wiki article
[00:33] (rightoooo) so what
[00:33] (rightoooo) criminal activity
[00:33] (occ) ok, im gonna do some cliches
[00:34] (bud-) rightoooo ive said it more than once.. govt, corps, and journalists were bought off to shape YOUR opinion
[00:34] (rightoooo) but no link however to teh German Government
[00:34] (occ) but this is the funniest goddamn Deep Thought ever:
[00:34] (occ) (pause)
[00:34] (occ) To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered
[00:34] (occ) where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus,
[00:34] (occ) and a clown killed my dad.
[00:34] (Eeyore) now THIS is interesting it turns out Sadamn WAS working with AL queda The scandal engulfing the United Nations Procurement Department and the Oil-for-Food Programme involved Al-Qaeda finance operations. FOX News broke the story that Alexander Yakovlev, a Russian official in the UN Procurement Department, was involved; he later resigned and pled guilty to corruption charges. One link was to Ahmed Idris Nasreddin, a man designated as a t
[00:34] (rightoooo) bud i don wacth Al Jazeera, and i didnt read articles from Journalists who were pro saddam
[00:35] (rightoooo) occ?
[00:35] (occ) y0
[00:36] (rightoooo) ok i gotta go soon
[00:37] (Eeyore) http://www.heritage.org/Research/Iraq/wm217.cfm
[00:38] (Eeyore) Direct trade between Germany and Iraq amounts to about $350 million annually, and another $1 billion is reportedly sold through third parties.
[00:38] (bud-) rightoooo have you not read about ANY of the U.N. stuff on this matter?
[00:38] (bud-) or even heard of it?
[00:38] (rightoooo) Heritage Foundation heh
[00:38] (Eeyore) Direct trade between Germany and Iraq amounts to about $350 million annually, and another $1 billion is reportedly sold through third parties.\
[00:39] (Eeyore) It has recently been reported that Saddam Hussein has ordered Iraqi domestic businesses to show preference to German companies as a reward for Germany's "firm positive stand in rejecting the launching of a military attack against Iraq." It was also reported that over 101 German companies were present at the Baghdad Annual exposition.[11]
[00:39] (seahawk) well they're obviously nazis then
[00:39] (Eeyore) Germany is owed billions by Iraq in foreign debt generated during the 1980's.
[00:40] (Eeyore) German officials are investigating a German corporation accused of illegally channeling weapons to Iraq via Jordan. The equipment in question is used for boring the barrels of large cannons and is allegedly intended for Saddam Hussein's Al Fao Supercannon project.[
[00:40] (rightoooo) Eeyore so what, Germany had trade with Iraq
[00:40] (rightoooo) Eeyore but i dont see evidence that the German government opposed the war because of trades
[00:41] (Eeyore) the implication here is that Sadam held debt over Germanys head. but Imgetting the impression from what I read tonight that Germany's complicity in oil for food was minimal compared to France. even so, I believe the anti Iraq war sentiment...
[00:41] (Eeyore) in Germany is because of oil for food payoffs elsewhere in europe
[00:41] (seahawk) so whats your point?
[00:42] (seahawk) germans love oil and hate freedom)?
[00:42] (rightoooo) no
[00:42] (occ) read those deep thoughts!
[00:42] (Eeyore) http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/oct2005-daily/31-10-2005/world/w17.htm
[00:42] (occ) http://www.faqs.org/faqs/tv/sat-night-live/deep-thoughts/
[00:42] (Eeyore) STUTTGART, Germany: ate prosecutors said on Sunday they were considering opening a formal probe against top German firms in light of corruption allegations in a report on the UN oil-for-food scandal in Iraq.
[00:42] (rightoooo) i say the claim that Germany opposed the iraq War because it traded with iraq is unsubstantial
[00:42] (seahawk) www.haveapoint.com
[00:43] (Eeyore) STUTTGART, Germany: ate prosecutors said on Sunday they were considering opening a formal probe against top German firms in light of corruption allegations in a report on the UN oil-for-food scandal in Iraq.
[00:43] (Eeyore) A committee led by former US central bank chief Paul Volcker found that more than 2,000 firms-including German giants such as Siemens and DaimlerChrysler-paid altogether 1.8 billion dollars (1.5 billion euros) in kickbacks to Saddam Hussein’s regime as Iraq abused a UN humanitarian aid programme.
[00:43] (occ) i proudly own "www.couchlock.com"
[00:43] (Eeyore) now we are getting smewhere
[00:44] (bud-) rightoooo the journalists werent al jazeera types.. they were typical european ap/afp writers whos pieces are read globally. They received massive bribes the same as some politicians did. this is well documented
[00:45] (Eeyore) ok its 3:45 AM and I need sleep/ g nigth all :*) takemus carebus
[00:45] (rightoooo) Eeyore that was from the Fox News article ,also you psoted an rticle by the Heritage Foundation ... cool news sources
[00:45] (bud-) if the sources are so bogus surely you can refute the subject matter rather than the source
[00:45] (rightoooo) Eeyore but there are many many many other news out there
[00:48] (rightoooo) gotta go soon
[00:49] (rightoooo) night all
[00:49] (rightoooo) cya next time around
[00:51] (occ) If you ever fall off the Sears Tower, just go real limp, because maybe you'll look like a dummy and people will try to catch you because, hey, free dummy.
[00:53] (bud-) whats the one about the president and the chocolate gun gift
[00:53] (panini) deep thoughts, occ
[00:55] (occ) jesus christ, i just fell and smashed my knee on the damn stairs -- because all the lights were out
[00:56] (occ) everyone whines about saving utility costs, but what the fuck
[00:56] (occ) ill pay the buck-fifty it costs AT MOST to run a tiny lightbulb all night to save injuring myself severely
[00:56] (bud-) .
[00:57] (occ) (thats a buck-fifty monthly, i mean.)
[00:57] (occ) and if its a place with a fixed utility bill, its even worse
[00:58] (occ) all this whiney, stingy horseshit stems to the depression
[00:59] (occ) "MY GOD, THE REFRIGERATOR DOOR WAS OPEN FOR FIFTEEN SECONDS!"
[00:59] (occ) etc.
[01:00] * bud- wanders off
[01:00] (pntkl) same
[01:00] (occ) make sure you turn off all the lights, you guys.
[01:00] (seahawk) hey that shit is expensive
[01:00] (pntkl) you should turn off the lights
[01:00] (seahawk) i had to give up hookers to pay my electric bill
[01:00] (pntkl) unless you can think of an efficient electric system
[01:00] (occ) i leave some on, for safety purposes!
[01:01] (pntkl) of course, nobody is going to that extreme
[01:01] (occ) youd be surprised, and thats what im talking about
[01:01] (pntkl) i would be surprised about what?
[01:01] * davtek is a kept man...no electric bills...no morgage...no rent...
[01:01] (occ) i mean people who seem to think that leaving an electric light on is utterly taboo -- but leaving on five computers and monitors is fine
[01:01] (davtek) no cable bill
[01:02] (pntkl) and you can generalize that for everyone in here?
[01:02] (pntkl) :)
[01:02] (occ) am i doing that?
[01:02] (occ) no, i IZZ-AIN'T!
[01:02] (occ) im just bitching because i hurt my knee.
[01:02] (pntkl) look, i'm no tree hugger ... but i really have a distaste for gross waste
[01:03] (pntkl) the people in a depression weren't so wrong to not want to waste what had become a basic need
[01:03] (occ) well, i suppose you can call it a very low-level form of conspicuous consumption
[01:03] (pntkl) and its not a bad mentra, even now
[01:03] (occ) but honestly, id rather spend the money
[01:03] (occ) and get the slight benefit
[01:04] (pntkl) because power is so abdundant
[01:04] (pntkl) for you
[01:04] (occ) well, for everyone here, yes
[01:04] (pntkl) no
[01:04] (pntkl) the supply is pretty much constant, but it is not for everyone
[01:04] (occ) i said it was for everyone here on irc
[01:05] (occ) theres no such thing as "not being able to buy electricity", as far as any of us are concerned
[01:05] (occ) im obviously not so naive that i think its that way everywhere
[01:06] (pntkl) sorry, i do believe the argument has still remained the same ... its not good to waste anything, use what you need :D ... it won't always be so easy, i'm sure
[01:06] (occ) what one "needs" can get pretty damn subjective
[01:07] (occ) and we all use more than we "need" to survive
[01:08] (pntkl) of course, you don't need electricity that's for sure
[01:08] (pntkl) :P
[01:08] (occ) obviously not
[01:08] (pntkl) that'd be interesting
[01:08] (pntkl) could you imagine?
[01:08] (occ) but im not arguing that we all should only use what we need to survive -- thats your position ;)
[01:08] (pntkl) yes
[01:09] (pntkl) i'm saying electricity has become a basic need
[01:10] (occ) but you dont follow this position, no?
[01:10] (occ) you clearly use electricity
[01:10] (pntkl) and its not good to have a wasteful mentality
[01:10] (occ) so you keep it as an unatainable "ideal"?
[01:11] (pntkl) so i'm saying when the old polish lady yells at you for leaving the fridge open ... don't be so upset :P
[01:11] (pntkl) long story about the old polish lady
[01:11] (pntkl) :D
[01:11] (occ) hehe
[01:11] (occ) fuck her and her old-school values!
[01:11] (occ) thats what i say
[01:12] (pntkl) values, heh ... well that's for another discussion :D bbl
[01:13] (davtek) Spongebob answer to global warming: "leave all the doors open and crank up the air conditioning."
[01:15] (seahawk) not sure spongebob is the one we really should be going to for science
[01:15] (seahawk) granted, he has the funding for research, i just think he uses it to make t-shirts
[01:15] (occ) hey
[01:15] (seahawk) and breakfast snacks
[01:19] (davtek) oh christ
[01:19] (davtek) rosi is gonna go on trumps new...celeb. apprentice
[01:19] (davtek) shoot them both
[01:20] (davtek) stop the maddness
[01:22] (pntkl) hahah
[01:26] (panini) it turns out that spongebob knows more science than any global warming fanatic
[01:28] (pntkl) bah to global warming, you tell me how the earth really works ... and i'll give you a gold star :)
[01:29] (panini) no one knows that
[01:29] (panini) especially not the global warming wackos
[01:29] (pntkl) :)
[01:40] (bastille) why are right wingers always trying to debunk global warming?
[01:41] (bastille) is the debate over the environment a "liberal cause" ?
[01:42] (panini) of course it is
[01:42] (panini) because it has nothing to with the environment
[01:42] (panini) it's a *political* issue
[01:42] (bastille) i agree it's political
[01:42] (bastille) not scientific
[01:42] (panini) right
[01:42] (bastille) because almost all scientists agree
[01:43] (panini) false
[01:43] (bastille) global warming is happening and that it poses a grave threat
[01:43] (bastille) and it is man-made
[01:43] (bastille) yup
[01:43] (panini) also false
[01:43] (bastille) nope
[01:43] (panini) yup
[01:43] (bastille) try to look at the issue objectively
[01:44] (panini) the only ppl who believe that are those ignorant ppl who worship at the altar of algore
[01:44] (bastille) so ti's because gore is the figurehead?
[01:44] (bastille) it's*
[01:44] (panini) it's a clear indication that it's a bogus issue
[01:44] (seahawk) at least the issue has someone to represent
[01:45] (seahawk) what, someone believes in it so its fake?
[01:45] (panini) sure, every junk science has a figurehead. so what?
[01:45] (seahawk) why again is it junk science?\
[01:45] (bastille) junk science??
[01:45] (bastille) that is appalling
[01:45] (seahawk) no shut up
[01:45] (seahawk) this is funny
[01:46] (seahawk) go ahead, explain it to me
[01:46] (bastille) let's just cut to the chase
[01:46] (panini) because it's not based on any science
[01:47] (panini) it's based on *politics*
[01:47] (bastille) human activity (C02 emissions, etc.) is responsible for accelerating global warming in the present day.
[01:47] (bastille) agree or disagree?
[01:47] (bastille) wow.
[01:47] (panini) science says no
[01:47] (panini) ONE political party says yes
[01:47] (bastille) lol
[01:47] (panini) so take your pick
[01:47] (bastille) the broad consensus of scientists believe it to be true
[01:47] (panini) false
[01:48] (bastille) okay, more than half
[01:48] (panini) that's the propaganda, not the truth
[01:48] (bastille) how about that?
[01:48] (bastille) lol
[01:48] (bastille) too funny
[01:49] (panini) indeed
[01:49] (panini) it's funny to see how blindly and ncritically you've accepted the propaganda
[01:49] (panini) +u
[01:50] (bastille) LOL!
[01:50] (bastille) I'm pullin in with the scientists who study this stuff
[01:51] (panini) the science part of this was settled long ago... they determined that global warming is caused by increased solar output
[01:51] (bastille) christ
[01:51] (panini) everything after that is purely political
[01:52] (panini) here's a startling fact which NO enviro-wacko is aware of: the Earth's climate is *cyclic*
[01:53] (panini) that's right folks... at times the Earth heats up... at other times it cools down
[01:53] (panini) we are currently in an inter-glacial period
[01:54] (panini) that means the avg temps will increase for a while...
[01:54] (panini) until we enter the next ice age
[01:54] (bastille) LOL!
[01:54] (bastille) are you a scientist?
[01:54] (panini) yes
[01:54] (bastille) please try to examine this objectively
[01:54] (bastille) do you study climatology?
[01:55] (panini) that's how I know the science aspect of it
[01:55] (panini) but there is VERY little science involved with this debate.
[01:55] (panini) As I said it's purely a *political* issue
[01:57] (panini) and you will continue to believe the propaganda
[01:57] (bastille) o
[01:57] (panini) and that's ok
[01:57] (bastille) i'm sorry
[01:57] (bastille) am i in bizarro-land
[01:57] (panini) I will shrewdly profit off your ignorance
[01:58] (panini) but selling you morons Global Warming tshirts, etc
[01:58] (panini) but=by
[01:59] (bastille) so you think its some big conspiracy?
[01:59] (bastille) or what?
[01:59] (bastille) honestly
[02:01] (davtek) ok...bleach white global warming t-shirts made in out of code factorys by child labor....get em now while their hot
[02:03] (bastille) The scientific community has reached a strong consensus regarding the science of global climate change
[02:03] (bastille) The world is undoubtedly warming. This warming is largely the result of emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases from human activities including industrial processes, fossil fuel combustion, and changes in land use, such as deforestation. Continuation of historical trends of greenhouse gas emissions will result in additional warming over the 21st century, with current projections of a global increase of 2.5ºF to 1
[02:14] (Mornx) bastille, don't tell the flat earthers that
[02:17] (seahawk) they still have those?
[02:17] (seahawk) thats so cute
[02:24] (Mornx) http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/
[02:25] (Mornx) http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
[02:39] (bastille) kick ass
[02:39] (bastille) #
[02:39] (bastille) # Scientific data and measurements backing up our claims
[02:39] (bastille) lol
[02:40] (seahawk) science and politics go together like oil and .... what doesnt go with oil?
[02:57] (Kokunai) water perhaps
[02:59] (Kokunai) if you look at climate change in the perspective of history and not in the persepctive that "man is horrible" The current rate of change is no more extreme than it has been many times in the past. The Middle Ages for example it was hotter as an average than it is today. Coming out of the last Ice Age it heated at a rate faster than it is now.
[03:00] (Kokunai) climate change is a natural process and to say off the cuff that man is causing it is jumping the gun...more in depth studies need to be made to determine if it can be slowed down which it probably can't due to the fact that climate change is a fact of life.
[03:00] (CometBaby) imo .. it is the Flat Earthers who believe all this bullshit junk science. They remind me of the cults that are waiting for the mothership to come down and pick them up off the mountain top
[03:00] (Kokunai) ?
[03:01] (Kokunai) what I am saying?
[03:01] (CometBaby) that we have not studied weather long enough to jump to their ridiculous conclusions :)
[03:01] (Kokunai) oh ok
[03:01] (CometBaby) envirowackism has become a cult
[03:02] (CometBaby) they will believe ANYTHING their leader tells them.
[03:02] (Kokunai) it has with a political organization to back it
[03:02] (CometBaby) Its an emotional group of people .. who, once they are emotionally involved, don't care about facts anymore. They just BELIEVE.
[03:02] (CometBaby) alfore
[03:02] (CometBaby) alfgore
[03:03] (CometBaby) the goracle
[03:03] (CometBaby) Father Al-Goracle of the Religion of Envirowackism
[03:03] (Kokunai) his video was hilarious
[03:03] (RTistGone) i watched that video
[03:03] (Kokunai) I laughed the whole way through...I love when people put out opinions as facts...
[03:03] (CometBaby) whatever he tells them .. they believe. Gore is the David Koresh of envirowacksim
[03:04] (Kokunai) lol
[03:04] (RTistGone) seems it was more a what can i film that looks acceptable and still complain about losing the election
[03:04] (CometBaby) RTst .. heh
[03:05] (Kokunai) there is a place for conservation but to jump to conclusions cause your in love with a tree will just cost trillions now that there is a huge following for climate change having something done about it
[03:05] (CometBaby) His son was recently arrested again. Gore had to put up a $20,000 bond. The reason it took so long to bail his son out, was because of all the recounts :)
[03:05] (RTistGone) hah
[03:05] (Kokunai) lol
[03:05] (Kokunai) that is hilarious
[03:05] (Kokunai) wow
[03:06] (Kokunai) where are the proponents for this trash science at in here?
[03:06] (Kokunai) brb need a smoke
[03:08] (Kokunai) ok back
[03:18] (RTistGone) ever notice those quiet still times known as dusk and dawn :)
[03:18] (RTistGone) the wind stops blowing and irc pauses
[03:19] (SonOfSpam) Sometimes we turn into vampires and eat the n00bs.
[03:19] * SonOfSpam lurks
[03:20] * _3Josephs is waiting for data, as usual for this time of day
[03:20] (SonOfSpam) Need input!
[03:21] (_3Josephs) if there will be any today, it is likely to be in the next 7 minutes
[03:21] * SonOfSpam kidnaps that really bad android actor from star trek and sends him to 3Joes by economy mail in hopes of a morbid outcome.
[03:23] * yxhvuud is now known as yxhuvud
[03:26] (_3Josephs) he was better on Night Court
[03:28] (JupaSaur) Here is a glaring example of why the MSM sucks and how bad American jounalism is these days. This story does not say what the headline says. "Strippers nab aliens in terrorist manhunt" http://poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070715/NEWS/707150324 the strippers never nailed any aliens nor did they ever participate in a terrorist manhunt. BTW, the Pocono Record is owned by WSJ. So much for the WSJ.
[03:29] (SonOfSpam) o_O
[03:29] (SonOfSpam) erm...
[03:29] (_3Josephs) yeah, I'm sure the WSJ has editorial control over a po-dunk hick paper
[03:29] (JupaSaur) lol
[03:32] (SonOfSpam) Since the headline itself was intended as sarcastic I'm not sure what the complaint is either.
[03:32] (JupaSaur) well, most likely the wsj does not edit that rag. but the wsj owns it. actually, the wsj owns ottoway news and ottoway news owns the pocono record. it is likely that wsj hires the people that run ottoway news and ottoway hires the publisher and editor of the pocono record
[03:33] (JupaSaur) SonOfSpam how do you see a front page headline as sarcastic
[03:33] (SonOfSpam) Somehow I doubt they even have that much control.
[03:33] (SonOfSpam) Well the article itself points this idea out.
[03:33] (JupaSaur) it does?
[03:33] (SonOfSpam) Yep.
[03:34] (JupaSaur) i did not notice that, what paragraph?
[03:34] (SonOfSpam) It's a bit tongue in cheek.
[03:34] (JupaSaur) let me reread it
[03:34] (SonOfSpam) Be like the topic here reading something like: "Bush causes another Hurricane."
[03:35] (RTistGone) lol
[03:35] (SonOfSpam) It's pointing out the bad press they're getting in the national news.
[03:35] (SonOfSpam) The headline is a culmination of the bad image they're getting as opposed to a description of any actual event.
[03:36] (SonOfSpam) And the article is more about this than any single event as we can see.
[03:37] (SonOfSpam) So, I think in this case a small town paper was being a bit silly, as opposed to being some deceptive MSM conspiratorial something or other.
[03:37] (JupaSaur) i did not read any sarcasm or tongue and cheeck thing in the artice
[03:38] * RTistGone waits to see just what the strippers did
[03:38] (JupaSaur) RTistGone are you viewing the video? :-)
[03:38] (SonOfSpam) And a subsidiary of a subsidiary of the WSJ... probably doesn't have all its hiring or content choices checked by WSJ yahoos.
[03:39] (bastille) WHY are republicans always trying to debunk global warming?
[03:40] (RTistGone) because demo are always shoving it at them?
[03:40] (SonOfSpam) bastille... because they don't believe that humans are the major force behind it?
[03:40] (bastille) does that make it untrue?
[03:40] (bastille) but all the evidence points against that
[03:40] (JupaSaur) SonOfSpam i guess you and i have different points of view about corporate responsibility. imo corporations are responsible for what their people and subsidiarys and their people do
[03:41] (RTistGone) evidence is partial
[03:41] (SonOfSpam) The evidence all points to warming happening.
[03:41] (SonOfSpam) It points to human influence.
[03:41] (RTistGone) some human influence
[03:41] (SonOfSpam) But the fight rages on over how much and to what degree humans play a role.
[03:41] (bastille) nope
[03:42] (bastille) no fight
[03:42] (SonOfSpam) Personally I think everyone should recognize that it is in our best interests to improve our environmental policy both for our standards of living and economic benefit in the future (we don't want to run into a resource crunch)
[03:42] (JupaSaur) SonOfSpam true
[03:42] (bastille) "The scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify nations taking prompt action."
[03:42] (RTistGone) i heard someone say...so you are putting your faith in a little old guy in siberia 100 years ago to go out and take the temp every day...without thinking he might say, damn, it feels today as it did yesterday and just fudge the numbers :P
[03:42] (bastille) from the National Academy of Science
[03:42] (bastille) "Greenhouse gases are accumulating in Earth’s atmosphere as a result of human activities, causing surface air temperatures and subsurface ocean temperatures to rise."
[03:42] (bastille) another quote
[03:43] (SonOfSpam) bastille... a lot of Repubs don't think that Kyoto is the answer to that.
[03:43] (bastille) that's perfectly fine
[03:43] (SonOfSpam) Or that the threat is overblown.
[03:44] (bastille) The growing scientific consensus is that this warming is largely the result of emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases from human activities including industrial processes, fossil fuel combustion, and changes in land use, such as deforestation. Projections of future warming suggest a global increase of 2.5ºF (1.4ºC) to 10.4ºF (5.8ºC) by 2100, with warming in the United States expected to be even higher.
[03:44] (SonOfSpam) And that much of the consensus is based on the same scientific studies they read that don't seem to be as conclusive as what these other people are claiming them to be.
[03:45] (SonOfSpam) As far as humananity's input.
[03:45] (JupaSaur) the repbubs do not want to take the measures necessary to bring global warming under control -- likey because big corps are against the necessry measures and because bush isn't doing enough about it and the repubs foolishly back bush on everything
[03:45] (SonOfSpam) "foolishly"
[03:45] (bastille) there is no "debate" over man-made global warming in scientific circles
[03:46] (bastille) check the IPCC report
[03:46] (bastille) and it was said to be a conservative estimate
[03:46] (rightooo) les enfants de la bastille
[03:46] (bastille) :D
[03:46] (rightooo) hello my friends :)
[03:47] (RTistGone) i think some parts of earth weather etc have been overstated tothe point its a mantra for some while other factors are being ignored.
[03:47] (SonOfSpam) Okay... Bush has only slowed down environmental requirements over time... he's still supporting environmental policies for the most part.
[03:47] (RTistGone) would be nice to find some real objective work done on it
[03:47] (JupaSaur) RTistGone did you view that video clip with the strippers?
[03:47] (RTistGone) no
[03:47] (SonOfSpam) Businesses would prefer slow change over drastic change to avoid economic woes.
[03:48] (SonOfSpam) People often like this idea to because drastic change can lead to things like unemployment and hard times for them as well.
[03:48] (RTistGone) its probably more of a bottom line thinking
[03:48] (SonOfSpam) So basically you have two schools... slow change... rapid change.
[03:48] (RTistGone) $$$$$
[03:48] (RTistGone) what is happening to our grey areas?
[03:49] (SonOfSpam) The propaganda behind the slow change goes towards making it sound like no problems out there.
[03:49] (SonOfSpam) The propaganda behind the rapid change goes towards making it sound like we're all going to die.
[03:49] (RTistGone) true enough
[03:49] (RTistGone) and both are extreme
[03:49] (SonOfSpam) So what?
[03:49] (RTistGone) so its left up to the layman to find the truth
[03:49] (SonOfSpam) It's not like the American public are going to read scientific or economic studies.
[03:50] (RTistGone) wouldnt help anyway, they are biased depending on the funding
[03:50] (SonOfSpam) They're going to hear the propaganda and other people's interpretation of those studies.
[03:50] (RTistGone) there is very little objective research going on these days, imo
[03:52] (SonOfSpam) Personally I'm for a slow to medium range pace of improving environmental standards to avoid economic problems and more of a push to internationalize those standards. That way we don't A) save the planet by destroying our nation and saving the 3rd world B) actually save it by getting the rest of the world to do it too C) limit the negative economic impact on the US as much as possible.
[03:52] (Kokunai) bastille the only reason it looks as though there is no debate is because of the tricks the side that wants it to look that way employ are so heavily used...then not heard about when the scientists involved sue to have their names removed from certain high profile reports
[03:53] (rightooo) Tom is taller than Mike , Butch is shorter than Stu, Donald is taller than Mike but shorter than Stu. Stu is taller than Mike. Who is the tallest?
[03:53] (RTistGone) lol
[03:53] (RTistGone) the one with the biggest soapbox silly :)
[03:53] (rightooo) x)
[03:53] * SonOfSpam disintegrates all of them but Tom.
[03:54] (SonOfSpam) Tom's tallest.
[03:54] (rightooo) nope
[03:54] (rightooo) we dont know if Tom or Stu
[03:54] (SonOfSpam) Nobody else is left.
[03:54] (rightooo) either Tom or Stu
[03:54] (Kokunai) either tom or stu
[03:54] (SonOfSpam) I disintegrated Stu.
[03:54] (Kokunai) oh
[03:54] (rightooo) yes
[03:54] (Kokunai) not enough info but those are the only too not shorter
[03:55] (Kokunai) too = two
[03:55] (rightooo) i created that puzzle myself
[03:55] (rightooo) i know its not that hard
[03:56] (Kokunai) bastille you should look at the info about the IPCC(?) that came out and the controversy of the scientists wanting their name off it after they were tricked into having their names put into it by writing a short paper on global warming then signing their name...later those were used all together to show consensus when none existed
[03:56] (Kokunai) maybe it is IPPC
[03:56] (Kokunai) damn
[03:57] (Kokunai) I have to look it up
[03:57] (Kokunai) IPCC
[03:57] * sHice| is now known as sHice
[03:58] (RTistGone) the sad thing is that since both sides seem more intent on out shouting the other,that if something really needs to be done it probably wont be done
[03:59] (Kokunai) I just want an honest study to be done
[03:59] (Kokunai) the answer lies somewhere between the two sides
[04:00] (Kokunai) but too many scientist with political ties and agendas to prove to get a straight answer
[04:00] (Kokunai) and the Kyoto treaty is ridiculous
[04:00] (Kokunai) anyone who thinks we should sign has never read it
[04:00] (RTistGone) i agree kokunai
[04:00] (JupaSaur) much could be done to ease global warming by good energy conservation practices. all that energy we are releasing constributes to global warming. here are some good ideas for energy conversation --) http://tinyurl.com/39tdoc and http://tinyurl.com/2cav6t these suggestions could help the oil crises too.
[04:01] (Kokunai) BASTILLE: here is a link that shows there is a debate in scientific circles
[04:01] (Kokunai) http://www.sepp.org/Archive/controv/ipcccont/ipcccont.html
[04:01] (Kokunai) Jupa...no study has ever shown that we are the major contributors...do we contribute, most likely. Is it enough that we could make a difference, noone knows for certain
[04:03] (Kokunai) Krakatoa(sp?) put off more greenhouse gases in it's eruption than we have put out since industrialization
[04:03] (Kokunai) Mt. St. Helens put out something like twice the amount the US has put out in it's lifetime
[04:04] (Kokunai) our measily amount of greenhouse gasses we put out is not adding a whole lot to the total amount released by natural processes
[04:04] (Remo1075) kill all cows
[04:05] (Kokunai) when youput numbers on it, it sounds humongous but when you put it in perspective with how much is released naturally
[04:05] (Kokunai) it is pitiful
[04:05] (Kokunai) if you took out the amount we put out and subtracted it from the total new released each yr, you would not make a dent in the total number
[04:06] (Remo1075) USA is what % of the world's population ? and puts out 25% of it's polution
[04:06] (Kokunai) and
[04:06] (Kokunai) yet we also contain what percentage of it's wealth
[04:06] (Remo1075) idiot
[04:07] (Kokunai) what percentage of the goods in the world are made here?
[04:07] (Kokunai) what percentage of the oil is refined here
[04:07] (Remo1075) not that much
[04:07] (Remo1075) compared to china
[04:07] (Kokunai) oh you come with numbers then got nothing when I fire back?
[04:08] (Kokunai) what does that 25% pollution get us
[04:08] (Remo1075) I don't see you giveing any numbers
[04:08] (Kokunai) 13.13 trillion GDP 1006
[04:08] (Kokunai) 2006
[04:08] (Kokunai) for 25% pollution
[04:08] (Remo1075) I can always tell when I'm taliking with a yank, there so up themselves it's unreal
[04:09] (Kokunai) I can always tell when I am not talking to an American, they are so against it it's unreal
[04:09] (Remo1075) actually I'm not so against it,
[04:09] (Kokunai) yet you want to rail against the pollution
[04:09] (Remo1075) just the odd few pillocks like you that like to just back slap other fellow americans
[04:10] (Kokunai) oh I see
[04:10] (Remo1075) which is what your doing
[04:10] (Kokunai) I am not backslapping others
[04:10] (Kokunai) you pointed out the pollution number
[04:10] (Remo1075) if enough of you say to each other were ok then you start beliveing it
[04:10] (Kokunai) I am pointing out what comes from that
[04:10] (Kokunai) lol ok
[04:10] (Kokunai) too bad you don't like facts
[04:10] (Remo1075) your just all "awesome" are'nt you
[04:10] (Kokunai) and can just resort to personal attacks
[04:11] (Kokunai) well, I don't like to brag but it seems we have done more than our fair share of...well...everything it seems
[04:11] (Remo1075) I don't need to quota facts. It is a fact that the good old USA is pumping too much crap out into OUR atomsphere in general
[04:11] (Kokunai) lol
[04:12] (Remo1075) there you go with the back slapping again
[04:12] (Remo1075) I don't like to brag
[04:12] (Remo1075) lol
[04:12] (Kokunai) lol
[04:12] (Remo1075) pillock
[04:12] (Kokunai) lol
[04:12] (Remo1075) have a nice trip
[04:12] (SonOfSpam) heh...
[04:13] (SonOfSpam) Death by "lol"
[04:13] (Remo1075) ha ha
[04:14] (Remo1075) now come the PM's
[04:16] (Harsen) spammie
[04:18] (SonOfSpam) yo yo yo
[04:18] (Harsen) whats, ^?
[04:18] (SonOfSpam) o_O
[04:19] (SonOfSpam) oh the ban removal?
[04:20] (Harsen) whats up
[04:20] (Harsen) u idiot
[04:20] (SonOfSpam) heh
[04:20] (rightooo) whom ya talkling to Harsen
[04:20] (Harsen) Spammer
[04:20] * SonOfSpam wonders around his apartment staring at the ceiling.
[04:21] (SonOfSpam) Just getting ready for class.
[04:21] (SonOfSpam) Gotta do a little presentation on the Muslim congressman today.
[04:22] * celestia0 is now known as celestia|
[04:31] (Harsen) SonOfSpam, Aer you going to talk about how hes crazy? lol
[04:32] (SonOfSpam) Basically I'm supposed to summarize the basics... but I'm going to bring in the dirt.
[04:32] (rightooo) what muslim congressman
[04:32] (SonOfSpam) Keith Ellison
[04:32] (Harsen) Keith Hernandez
[04:33] (SonOfSpam) http://glock21.blogspot.com/2007/07/911-reminds-muslim-congressman-of.html
[04:34] (rightooo) "As a member of the State House, Keith was proud to stand with Representative Frank Hornstein and others to oppose anti-Semitic statements"
[04:34] (SonOfSpam) While on some rant accusing the the Bush admin of totalitarianism, authoritarianism, and dictatorship he said that 9/11 reminded him of the Reichstag fire in how Hitler used it to seize power.
[04:35] (rightooo) "and to forthrightly challenge then Representative Lindner's denial that gay and lesbian people were victimized during the Holocaust."
[04:35] (SonOfSpam) He then basically implied he wouldn't say Bush was behind 9/11 because that gets you labeled as crazy and discredited.
[04:36] * CLU-- is now known as CLU
[04:36] (SonOfSpam) He of course absolutely says it isn't true later.
[04:37] (SonOfSpam) But his wording before was pretty revealing over either his true beliefs or at least an attempt to appeal to "truthers"
[04:41] * debauch_d is now known as debauched
[04:46] (rightooo) boom shakalaka shakalaka .... rightooo is now in the house, i aint no friggin mini mouse, im on the track now 1 2 3, lucky you i want no fee, bouncing bouncing all around, what an overwhelming super sound. x)
[05:15] (Nockian) man claims to be The Emperor at colorado state capitol and is shot dead - http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/16/colorado.capitol.ap/index.html
[05:15] (Nockian) haha
[05:16] (Piposh) LOL
[05:17] (SonOfSpam) Was there an heir to his throne?
[05:17] (Nockian) SonOfSpam: good one
[06:01] (Anastasja) moderatum tnx :D
[06:17] (rwx) TROLLER abuse or advertising domain or user
[06:17] (TzhmhS) www.ftou.gr/chat
[06:17] (TzhmhS) www.ftou.gr/chat
[06:17] (TzhmhS) www.ftou.gr/chat
[06:17] (TzhmhS) www.ftou.gr/chat
[06:17] (TzhmhS) www.ftou.gr/chat
[06:17] (TheTailor) Don't go to that website
[06:18] (TheTailor) TzhmhS No such nick/channel
[06:19] (compdoc) they still have website that will lock up your pc if you visit? Ive been to one of those...
[06:20] (TheTailor) I don't know, but it can't be anything good if it has to be spammed, the suddenly the asshole that pasted that is gone.
[06:44] * TheTailor smacks Aufklaren for CryHavoc
[06:45] * Aufklaren smacks TheTailor for being cruel to his Thai ladyboy wife.
[06:48] (TheTailor) Cry has decided to take some time off IRC so he told me to smack you daily, apparently you like it.
[06:48] (TheTailor) At least that's what he said
[06:48] (Aufklaren) Right, but you have to call me Henrietta and stamp on my balls.
[06:49] (TheTailor) Well I don't know about that, save the details for your intimate e-mails with Cry
[06:52] (TheTailor) Core 2 Extreme X7800, has both cores running at 2.6 GHz and offers as much as 28 percent more performance than its previous-generation mobile processor.
[06:53] (TheTailor) Wow, maybe Vista will run as fast as Win98 now
[06:53] (compdoc) I dont think vista is selling well
[06:54] (TheTailor) Why
[06:55] (compdoc) all the articles I see saying ppl dont like it
[06:56] (TheTailor) I simply don't know why we need that, an older OS with a faster machine has great speed. Adding 10 million lines of code and a faster processor just makes it look better without any increase in performance.
[07:00] (OcDoc) so how did the left re-spine north korean reactor shut-down
[07:01] (Yaakov) OcDoc: It is going to increase global warming.
[07:01] (TheTailor) Well I heard someone say "See, we are only back to where Clinton was"
[07:01] (OcDoc) ah
[07:01] (Veep) morning
[07:01] (Veep) got my cup of coffee, im ready to debate
[07:01] (OcDoc) Veep: what do you want to debate?
[07:02] (Kalo) i don't like beans in my chili
[07:02] (Veep) hehe, i dont know
[07:02] (Veep) whats everyone talking about
[07:02] (OcDoc) resolved - government is a necessary evil that should be kept small and limited in power
[07:02] (Yaakov) Well, we *were* talking about YOU, but now that you are here...
[07:02] (TheTailor) Of course Clinton didn't have the others in the region invoved, which personally I think is important.
[07:03] (OcDoc) TheTailor: like
[07:03] (OcDoc) Japan and China?
[07:03] (TheTailor) Sure
[07:03] (OcDoc) South Korea?
[07:03] (OcDoc) how are they involved now?
[07:03] (Yaakov) Russia
[07:03] (TheTailor) Yep, they need to contain NK
[07:05] (Veep) well, government is a necessary evil yes, but whats more evil? private companies running the same things
[07:05] (Kalo) 600 evil ELECTED representatives running things or 600 evil non-elected business owners running things
[07:05] (OcDoc) North Korea has replaced Albania as the world's most paranoid self-isolated socialist paradise
[07:05] (Veep) because companies have an obligation to the shareholders to increse value, by law
[07:06] (OcDoc) if we just leave them alone, they usually rebel eventually
[07:06] (gopp) Veep so that a good thing
[07:06] (gopp) but to increase value legally
[07:06] (gopp) not illegal
[07:06] (gopp) Veep if they can't increase profit legally
[07:06] (gopp) then they won't
[07:06] (OcDoc) Kalo: when did I say business owners should run things?
[07:06] (gopp) I sure no shareholder want illegal activities
[07:06] (gopp) so Veep I don't see your point
[07:07] (Veep) well whats illegal? insurance companies not paying for a life saving surgery? the guy dies, but its technically legal they didnt need to pay for it
[07:07] (gopp) Veep moore sicko and his lies
[07:07] (OcDoc) Veep: fraud is illegal
[07:07] (gopp) Veep ancedtol envidnce
[07:07] (OcDoc) Veep: that's the part the government is necessary for
[07:07] (gopp) OcDoc I agree
[07:07] (gopp) fruad is illegal
[07:07] (Veep) i have family in the insurance industry, they do it everyday, has nothing to do with michael moore
[07:07] (Veep) LOL
[07:07] (Veep) its real life
[07:08] (gopp) Veep and my dad get treated everyday
[07:08] (gopp) by his doctor
[07:08] (OcDoc) it's a contract ... you pay for coverage, they specify what's covered, you have the surgery ... if they don't pay for it the government makes them
[07:08] (Kalo) ocdoc: you didn't
[07:08] (gopp) Veep you just don't randomly pick one
[07:08] (Kalo) ocdoc: I thought Veep did
[07:08] (gopp) Veep you just don't randomly pick an insurance company
[07:08] (gopp) you look at your family history
[07:08] (gopp) of health
[07:08] (gopp) and choose what is best
[07:09] (OcDoc) Kalo: then it's a false dichotomy ... those aren't the only two choices ... government "running things" or business owners "running things" ... there are other alternatives
[07:09] (gopp) so if your family has heart problems, but you didn't pick a provider with heart coverage
[07:09] (gopp) it your fualt Veep
[07:09] (Veep) no, your company usually does, then you loose your job, then you can buy cobra for $$$$. Too much for someone to pay thats unemployed
[07:09] (OcDoc) Kalo: you're right ... Veep DID say that
[07:09] (gopp) Veep again lies and lies
[07:10] (OcDoc) Veep: who says it has to be that way?
[07:10] (gopp) Veep you can choose to pay for your own insurance
[07:10] (Veep) not lies, i went without insurance for a year because i couldnt afford cobra
[07:10] (gopp) wtf is cobra
[07:10] (Veep) and my new employer didnt offer insurance as a temp agency
[07:10] (gopp) Veep
[07:10] (OcDoc) Veep: your employer started offering free health care insurance after world war two as a way to attract employees returning from the war while salaries were still regulated by the government
[07:10] (gopp) cobra
[07:10] (TheTailor) [09:07] (Veep) because companies have an obligation to the shareholders to increse value, by law
[07:10] (TheTailor) Nonsense
[07:10] (OcDoc) Veep: benefits were not "capped" legally
[07:10] (TheTailor) By law?
[07:11] (gopp) Veep wh at law is that
[07:11] (Veep) Cobra is some legal thing that they cant take away your health insurance after you no longer work for the company, so the Cobra thing allows you to pay cash for insurance monthly
[07:11] (TheTailor) There isn't any law that says a company must produce a profit for it's shareholders
[07:11] (OcDoc) Veep: there is no requirement for employers to provide you with anything at all
[07:11] (OcDoc) Veep: you'd be crazy to work for no remuneration unless you were trying to build a resume and get experience temporarily while looking for a better job
[07:11] (gopp) yea if a company is having trouble producing profit
[07:12] (Veep) never said employers had to provide for me. this is america right? no free health insurance
[07:12] (gopp) their no law they must break inorder to follow some other law
[07:12] (gopp) Veep yes
[07:12] (gopp) and I don't have insrunace
[07:12] (gopp) Veep it your option
[07:12] (gopp) I am young and feel no need for it
[07:12] (gopp) so I save money
[07:12] (gopp) put in some saving and some ira or other savings
[07:12] (OcDoc) Veep: there is no requirement for them to give you the insurance in the first place ... but once you have it the insurance company cannot cancel the policy just because you no longer work for the employer
[07:13] (Veep) true, but if you cant afford it, what does it matter?
[07:13] (gopp) you still covered
[07:13] (OcDoc) Veep: we can discuss whether that's a good law or not, but that's what the law is currently (COBRA)
[07:13] (gopp) Veep well who fualt is that you are fired
[07:14] (OcDoc) Veep: I don't understand your question ... there are lots of things some people can't afford
[07:14] (Veep) fired? no, company dropped my entire dept
[07:14] (gopp) Veep onsolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985
[07:14] (gopp) Veep well you should of looked for another job
[07:14] (gopp) you should of been looking for jobs know that your deparment was going to be gon
[07:14] (gopp) e
[07:14] (Veep) i am looking for another job, in the meantime i temp
[07:14] (gopp) Veep also you should of had
[07:14] (gopp) raning day money
[07:14] (gopp) to pay
[07:14] (gopp) for your health
[07:14] (gopp) you know in case that your company let you go
[07:14] (gopp) that what normal people do
[07:15] (gopp) they save money for a emergency
[07:15] (OcDoc) so when you had a job, how come you didn't save enough money to pay for the health insurance if it was important to you?
[07:15] (Veep) i have money for health, but somethings are not affordable. my skin cancer cost $42,000
[07:15] (gopp) it a rainning day fund, I recall my high school english teacher always saying that
[07:15] (Veep) if i had to pay that today, i would just file for bankruptcy
[07:15] (OcDoc) speaking of work ... gotta go
[07:16] (gopp) Veep why didn't you save
[07:16] (gopp) Veep cancer is crazy and expensive
[07:16] (gopp) no matter what
[07:16] (Veep) i do save? not sure you dont think i do
[07:16] (gopp) the Reaserch and development for cancer is expensive
[07:16] (gopp) cancer is not cheap Veep
[07:16] (Veep) cost of my skin cancer operation in england? $0
[07:16] (Veep) italy $0
[07:16] (Veep) etc....
[07:16] (Veep) well, cost to me
[07:17] (Veep) you pay for health care in taxes
[07:17] (Veep) much better system
[07:17] (rightoooo) Veep thats why you need another health system over there in teh USA, insurance for everyone, rates according to income, when you get sick, you get treatment, no extra payment
[07:17] (hans--) sorry to hear about your health isues Veep-- skin cancer killed my cousin, he was only 47. Had a spot on his leg :(
[07:17] (gopp) :)
[07:17] (gopp) err
[07:17] (gopp) :(
[07:17] (Veep) agree rightooo
[07:17] (gopp) :( cancer must suck
[07:17] (gopp) my cousin only 29 or something
[07:18] (gopp) has cancer
[07:18] (gopp) he got young
[07:18] (Veep) hans, thanks i think its cleared up, but i get it checked once a year
[07:18] (gopp) at 27 or something
[07:18] (gopp) but my uncle is loaded, rich
[07:18] (gopp) so my cousin is getting best treatment
[07:18] (Veep) well i'm 24 and had the skin cancer on my face
[07:18] (gopp) he got level 4 cancer
[07:18] (TheTailor) Rich sadly doesn't cure cancer.
[07:18] (gopp) not skin
[07:18] (gopp) TheTailor true
[07:18] (gopp) they pay for the best still he get worse
[07:18] (Veep) kinda sucked, but the surgeon did a good job, never know it was there
[07:19] (gopp) he got level 4 or some shit
[07:19] (gopp) my sister says who is a pharmacist
[07:19] (gopp) that the worst level you can get
[07:19] (gopp) well not worst thier more levels
[07:19] (rightoooo) Veep all the best for you
[07:19] (gopp) but that bad hairfalls out you so weak
[07:19] (Veep) yeah, im fine. dont take pity on me.
[07:19] (gopp) that a good point no matter how much universal healthcare you have
[07:19] (Veep) i mean that in a nice way
[07:19] (gopp) that a good point no matter how much universal healthcare you have
[07:19] (gopp) TheTailor
[07:20] (gopp) cancer will not be sloved via universal healthcare
[07:20] (gopp) Veep it will be sloved by freemarket
[07:20] (rightoooo) i disagree
[07:20] (gopp) america does the best Research and developement
[07:20] (gopp) we have the best unveristys and companies
[07:20] (gopp) in the WORld
[07:20] (gopp) maybe our undergrad and high schools are not so good
[07:20] (rightoooo) research and development is escellent, but 50 million uninsured is shit
[07:21] (Veep) bad thing about the freemarket is healthcare is becoming soo expensive only huge companies can afford to get it for you, thus small business is hurting
[07:21] (gopp) but our grad phd and upper level school and companies are world best
[07:21] (yxhuvud) rightoooo: 50? 43, iirc
[07:21] (MikeyD) you can thank medicare for that
[07:21] (gopp) MikeyD :)
[07:21] (Veep) soooo, if you dont work for a big corporation, you'll be outa luck
[07:21] (gopp) Veep not always
[07:21] (Veep) and not everyone wants to work for a large corporation
[07:21] (gopp) my uncle don't work for a big corporation
[07:21] (gopp) but he a bussiness men
[07:22] (Veep) he will in the next 10 years
[07:22] (Veep) hehe
[07:22] (MikeyD) before medicare, the healthcare was i think 5% of our gdp
[07:22] (MikeyD) after medicare, it rose to 20
[07:22] (gopp) Veep have you seen the documentry deadmeat
[07:22] (gopp) or the documentry lemon
[07:22] (gopp) rightoooo have you seen lemon or deadmeat yet
[07:22] (MikeyD) i dont work for a large corporation, i still have insurance
[07:22] (rightoooo) gopp yes
[07:22] (MikeyD) plus im uneducated
[07:22] (gopp) Veep no matter what cancer is expensive
[07:23] (gopp) rightoooo what was your opnion
[07:23] (gopp) rightoooo did they prove a good great point
[07:23] (MikeyD) so im not easily moved by the "50 million uninsured" thinking
[07:23] (yxhuvud) MikeyD: uh, I thought it was about 15 now (still a lot compared to other contries)
[07:23] (gopp) I think they did in my opnion
[07:23] (Veep) the last company i worked for about 200 peeps, healthcare increased 1.5 million each year for the last 5 years. How long do you think the company can keep that up without reducing benefits
[07:23] (rightoooo) gopp but sorry, i wasnt convinced that US health care system was better than cannadas
[07:23] (gopp) rightoooo what about the documentry lemon
[07:23] (gopp) rightoooo hwo so
[07:23] (gopp) they provided facts
[07:23] (gopp) and case studies
[07:23] (rightoooo) gopp i dint watch lemon yet
[07:23] (Veep) answer is, they cant
[07:23] (gopp) rightoooo animals get better healthcare then humans in canada
[07:23] (rightoooo) gopp i am in germany, im very happy with our health care system
[07:23] (Veep) nice Right.
[07:24] (rightoooo) gopp every system has flaws, but it works well
[07:24] (gopp) I am in the usa and the helathcare for healthy people is fine
[07:24] (Veep) I was thinking of moving to europe.
[07:24] (gopp) yes it has problems
[07:24] (gopp) but no system is prefect but we are the best in the world
[07:24] (MikeyD) i mean, no matter how much insurance is raised due to frivilous lawsuits, government intrustion, hr policies and medicare, in the end if you cant afford your healthcare thats on you, as harsh as that is
[07:24] (TheTailor) rightoooo, have you had a major illness?
[07:24] (yxhuvud) how can healthcare for healthy people not work fine?
[07:24] (MikeyD) i mean, im in the same boat saying that
[07:24] (rightoooo) Veep i cant imagine how it must feel being sick and not able to pay the treatment :(
[07:24] (gopp) rightoooo but the flaw in canada is that animals dogs or cats or what ever get better treatment then huamns
[07:24] (gopp) long watting hours or list
[07:24] (rightoooo) TheTailor no
[07:24] (gopp) is not just a flaw
[07:24] (gopp) it a problem
[07:24] (rightoooo) TheTailor thankfully not
[07:25] (TheTailor) rightoooo, then how do you know if you are happy with the system?
[07:25] (MikeyD) what i do know is that by inacting universal healthcare, you basicly making doctors treat you for whatever you wish at the point of a gun
[07:25] (gopp) rightoooo in the usa it takes one week at most
[07:25] (gopp) to get treated rightoooo
[07:25] (gopp) one week at most rightoooo to get treated
[07:25] (gopp) in canda three months
[07:25] (TheTailor) rightoooo, you haven't used the system to know if you are happy with it.
[07:25] (rightoooo) TheTailor when im sick i go to the doctor
[07:25] (MikeyD) youre making the government use force to surrender a portion of their lives to you without volenteering it
[07:25] (rightoooo) TheTailor i dont have to pay for it
[07:25] (MikeyD) and thats wrong
[07:25] (gopp) rightoooo when I am sick I also go to a doctor
[07:25] (TheTailor) rightoooo, me too.
[07:25] (gopp) rightoooo me to
[07:25] (gopp) :)
[07:25] (gopp) and I don't have insruance
[07:26] (gopp) but I don't go for the common cold
[07:26] (Veep) yup... really stinks. a relative once put off going to the hospital once for 2 weeks, because they couldnt afford it. A friend eventually called the ambulance because they couldnt move.
[07:26] (MikeyD) i dont go period
[07:26] (gopp) that abuse or misue of the system
[07:26] (TheTailor) rightoooo, and shock that it is, I don't need universal taxpayer funded healthcare to go to the doctor.
[07:26] (rightoooo) gopp who pays for the doctor
[07:26] (gopp) I do
[07:26] (gopp) out of pocket
[07:26] (MikeyD) i know it sounds weird from a guy with lots of tattoos, but i hate needles
[07:26] (gopp) I support that
[07:26] (gopp) rightoooo :)
[07:26] (Veep) kinda sad people proubably die, because they are scared of hospital bills
[07:26] (gopp) rightoooo I get to pick who I want
[07:26] (MikeyD) the idea of someone putting a syringe in me makes me want to shitkick someone
[07:26] (Fretless) i have insurance and I can pick my doctor \ dentist
[07:27] (gopp) Fretless wow that good
[07:27] (MikeyD) see, and thats another important issue
[07:27] (MikeyD) picking your own doctor
[07:27] (gopp) in universal healthcare you can't
[07:27] (rightoooo) gopp out of pocket?
[07:27] (MikeyD) universal healthcare will arrest you for doing that
[07:27] (gopp) unless thier fruad
[07:27] (gopp) rightoooo yes what the problem with that
[07:27] (gopp) :)
[07:27] (rightoooo) gopp no thats not nice
[07:27] (gopp) that how stuff works
[07:27] (gopp) rightoooo I go rent a movie at a blockbuster
[07:27] (gopp) I pay out of pocket
[07:27] (gopp) or with a cc
[07:27] (rightoooo) gopp many people are out there who cant afford paying a doctor out of pocket
[07:27] (gopp) or debit card
[07:27] (Veep) inacting universal healthcare isnt pointing a gun at doctors, in england, italy, etc. they all make really good $$$ and no one is making them work
[07:27] (gopp) rightoooo 100 bucks
[07:27] (MikeyD) so in the end, youre assigned a doctor in a government controlled district, much like the school district systems
[07:27] (yxhuvud) MikeyD: uh, I have universal health care and I can go to whatever hospital I want
[07:27] (gopp) or 40 bucks
[07:28] (gopp) rightoooo poor people viist doctors for cheap or free
[07:28] (Veep) they work as doctors because they want to
[07:28] (gopp) in america
[07:28] (gopp) rightoooo the poor get free or cheap doctor visit
[07:28] (MikeyD) wheres this? im speaking on the american proposal
[07:28] (gopp) with welfare
[07:28] (gopp) or charity care
[07:28] (yxhuvud) if there are queue's at one hospital, I can go to another
[07:28] (yxhuvud) sweden
[07:28] (gopp) rightoooo we have tons of charity / free clinics
[07:28] (MikeyD) ah
[07:28] (MikeyD) well that makes sense
[07:28] (gopp) rightoooo tons of hospital offer free clinics
[07:28] (gopp) in the usa
[07:28] (gopp) rightoooo so that a lie
[07:28] (Fretless) what they need to do is regular the insurance compainies and also trial lawyers and healthcare would be alot more affordable
[07:28] (MikeyD) american proposals for healthcare are not structured the same way
[07:28] (Fretless) regulate
[07:28] (gopp) rightoooo when I buy something food cars, computers I don't exepect it to be a common right for goverment to pay for it
[07:29] (MikeyD) hilary clintons plan calls for at the least a misdomeanor if you attempt to find nongovernment assigened healthcare
[07:29] (rightoooo) gopp health is something else
[07:29] (gopp) rightoooo so take care of your health
[07:29] (gopp) like you take care o your computer or car
[07:29] (rightoooo) gopp you compare your health with a car or a computer?
[07:29] (gopp) or what ever
[07:29] (gopp) yes
[07:29] (JanetB) if you can not afford a doctor, there are county hospitals that do not charge anything
[07:29] (gopp) you take care of your car right
[07:29] (MikeyD) i do
[07:30] (MikeyD) if i dont have computers, i dont make money
[07:30] (gopp) JanetB correct that what I told him
[07:30] (gopp) free clinics
[07:30] (Veep) imagine fire dept was like healthcare? Hi I'm John, im here to put out the fire on your house. Do you have fire insurance? No? we we do take Visa/MC.
[07:30] (MikeyD) i dont make money, i cant go to the doctor
[07:30] (gopp) and I support free clinics and such
[07:30] (rightoooo) gopp i dont own a car
[07:30] (gopp) Veep thier is
[07:30] (gopp) Veep many towns have voluntary fire deparment
[07:30] (gopp) some have private
[07:30] (gopp) not all are tax payer funded
[07:30] (MikeyD) Veep: and thats partly true, but even more important that than
[07:30] (gopp) my town I went to high school
[07:30] (rightoooo) Veep exactly
[07:30] (gopp) had voluntry fire
[07:30] (gopp) rightoooo wrong
[07:31] (gopp) my town i went to high school had voluntry firefigther
[07:31] (gopp) they voluntry after work or before
[07:31] (MikeyD) why do you feel you have an inalienable right to someone elses skills and time that they are being forced to surrender to you for the fulfillment of your right to healthcare?
[07:31] (gopp) or in between
[07:31] (gopp) or during
[07:31] (Fretless) well look at how well the govt handled Walter Reed and that mess not to mention the whole VA... and they are supposed to be taking care of our veterans \ war heros .... the private sector is much more efficient and timely
[07:31] (JanetB) yeah, imagine it, you live in the county, and the fire dept, can not put out the fire in your house, cause they can not cross county lined, happens all the time
[07:31] (JanetB) heh
[07:31] (Veep) my town has volunteer fire dept, but i had to pay taxes for a new fire station and equipment at the cost of 2.1 million
[07:31] (Veep) so you do pay for it
[07:31] (Fretless) I dont want a health care system run like the VA
[07:31] (JanetB) so much for goverment.... control :D
[07:31] (Veep) even though your not paying for salaries
[07:31] (MikeyD) personally, i think most government services should be privitized
[07:32] (gopp) JanetB never new that
[07:32] (rightoooo) people are so afraid of universal healthcare, or a system with insurances but payments according to income
[07:32] (Fretless) right on mikey
[07:32] (JanetB) gopp.. live in a rural area
[07:32] (MikeyD) something like new zealands air traffic control system which are privatly owned
[07:32] (rightoooo) i dont know why
[07:32] (hans--) Walter Reed was handed out to private contractors. Has nothing to do with "govt medicine" quite the contrary it shoes the folly of giving things the govt should be doing to private businesses.
[07:32] (MikeyD) they did a really good job with that
[07:32] (rightoooo) i cant understand why people are so against it
[07:32] (Veep) Mikey, private companies are evil, at least gov is for the people, private companies are for the shareholders
[07:32] (MikeyD) uh
[07:32] (gopp) [10:35] (Veep) Mikey, private companies are evil, at least gov is for the people, private companies are for the shareholders
[07:32] (Nockian) rightoooo: they're not afraid of it in so much as they know what would happen with it in the US. it would be hell.
[07:32] (MikeyD) first off, theres no such thing as evil
[07:32] (gopp) k Veep how old are you
[07:33] (Veep) why you copy and pasting me?
[07:33] (MikeyD) second, government is no longer for the people, its for itself
[07:33] (Fretless) question here should smokers, drub abusers, and chrnoic drinkers. eaters be entiteld to the same govt healthcare at no cost as us who live a clean healthy life ?
[07:33] (Veep) i should tell you my age why? so you can think of a way to belittle my comments?
[07:33] (Veep) no thanks
[07:33] (JanetB) ok... a judge banned the word, rape in a rape trial, or the word rape kit... he would only allow sexual assult, or sexual assult kit
[07:33] (MikeyD) the more you expand government, the more it needs to feed off you to grow
[07:34] (Fretless) so true
[07:34] (MikeyD) which puts your liberties in jepordy
[07:34] (JanetB) oh and banned the word victim
[07:34] * Fretless nods in agreement again
[07:34] (Veep) well, smokers, drugs, drinkers are all taken care of anyway, its just bad care and wrote off by the companies
[07:34] (MikeyD) i mean, i smoke cigarettes and marijuana, and while i dont drink or do other drugs, i have bad eating habits and shit like that
[07:34] (rightoooo) gopp why dont you let him his opinion, Veep is right when he says that private companys are for the shareholders
[07:34] (Fretless) you pay higher rates
[07:34] (Veep) and society suffers by not helping those people
[07:34] (MikeyD) however, im not entitled to anything from anyone that im not willing to pay for or provide for myself
[07:35] (rightoooo) gopp i wouldnt say that theyre evil, but they are for the sharehoilders while government can care for the people not for the profit
[07:35] (Nockian) we have too many people in the welfare dependency class in my country. they need to starve to the point where they start working.
[07:35] (hans--) Walter Reed was managed by IAP, and the contract to manage the hospital was still given to IAP after the Army said it would be cheaper for the military to do the job inhouse.
[07:35] (rightoooo) ???
[07:35] * Piposh is now known as Pip`away
[07:36] (MikeyD) Nockian: amen to that
[07:36] (rightoooo) nice thoughts, all for themselves, even when its about healthcare
[07:36] (Fretless) do you have any figures on the cost of these programs you want ??? And where would the revenue come from to pay for them ?
[07:36] (hans--) so don't use Walter Reed as the poster boy for screwed up universal health care by the govt ;)
[07:36] (MikeyD) if you remove saftey nets, people become more motivated
[07:36] (JanetB) hahahahha you think goverment officials do not profit, from the lobbyest, of goverment controled agenceys
[07:36] (rightoooo) where is a uniting spirit?
[07:36] (JanetB) agencys
[07:36] (e-Hernick) agencies
[07:36] (Veep) true, welfare is broken, but there are few programs that help get those people into normal lives
[07:36] (MikeyD) something which is jsut handed to you has no value as the shit you pay for
[07:36] (MikeyD) or spend time earning
[07:37] (e-Hernick) controlled... lobbyists...
[07:37] (Fretless) ALl welfare recipients should be drug,alcohol,and nicotine tested. If you have money to have those things in your system you dont need taxpayers money
[07:37] (MikeyD) yeah, government officials not making profit is insane to say
[07:37] (Fretless) in many cases drugs and alochol are the cause of it
[07:37] (Fretless) I mean I have to take a drug test to keep my job and income
[07:37] (Fretless) why dont they ?
[07:37] (Veep) gov officials profit, yes, and when the baby boomers get old and start voting more, i hope they send all the corrupt polititians to jail
[07:38] (MikeyD) i dunno how it is where you live, but in this country our entire congress with maybe the exception of 1 person is completely controlled by special interest
[07:38] (JanetB) baby boomers are getting ready to get SS....
[07:38] (JanetB) hehhe
[07:38] (CapaH) Question to anyone who is in here, I know nothing about free speech laws --- I know that I as an American citizen am supposed to have a right to hold signs/protest in public places --- but I dont know the details of this. Can someone explain it to me? What are the limitations, where can I/cant I -- what if a police officer tells me to move? Etc etc etc.
[07:38] (e-Hernick) MikeyD: and who is that single uncorruptible?
[07:38] (JanetB) they are well past the age to be able to vote
[07:38] (Veep) even my local code enforcement officer takes "tips" for quick building permits. $100 here, $500 there
[07:38] (Veep) its not right, but thier day will come
[07:38] * Pip`away is now known as Piposh
[07:39] (MikeyD) but see, when you involve government in shit that it constitutionally has no cause or reason to be involved in, youre enabling special interest to use vote buying to power their directive
[07:39] (Fretless) sure will
[07:39] (e-Hernick) CapaH: Well, if there's a special event, you have to look for a "free speech zone", usually a fenced-off area far away from the main event.
[07:39] (Fretless) just a matter of time
[07:39] (MikeyD) th christian zealots here do it all the time, as well as the hardcore socialist
[07:39] (e-Hernick) CapaH: if you want to participate in the main event, you can only hold supportive messages
[07:39] (Fretless) all power corrupts ... absolute power corrupts absolutely
[07:39] (MikeyD) e-Hernick: ron paul, who else?
[07:39] (CapaH) e-Hernick: What if there is no special event?
[07:39] (rightoooo) Veep so he illegally takes this money?
[07:39] (Fretless) of course he does rightooo
[07:39] (rightoooo) Fretless thats corruption
[07:40] (rightoooo) Fretless what an ass
[07:40] (Fretless) yes
[07:40] (Fretless) I agree
[07:40] (e-Hernick) CapaH: well, you can protest anywhere as long as you're not disturbing the peace and your message isn't considered obscene, sedition, traitorous, treasonous, or worse
[07:40] (Veep) illegall? yes. you cant pay them personally for town provided services
[07:40] (Fretless) cuff him and stuff him if you can catch him
[07:40] (VT) Good Morning.
[07:40] (e-Hernick) CapaH: also, hate speech while not distinctly illegal, is quite touchy
[07:40] (Veep) the town is already paying them
[07:40] (MikeyD) town provided?
[07:40] (MikeyD) you mean government provided
[07:40] (e-Hernick) CapaH: if there are more than a few protesters, you'll want to see need a permit
[07:40] (Veep) sure, gov provided, if you like that term
[07:40] (e-Hernick) you might need a permit
[07:41] (CapaH) e-Hernick: Could I for instance go in front of a place of business doing some activity I consider improper and hold a sign saying so? suppose its just me, and/or just me and my wife?
[07:41] (MikeyD) i mean, how sad is it that people need to use government to take via force the time, life and property of others so youre happy?
[07:41] (e-Hernick) CapaH: sure, as long as you're not on their property
[07:41] (Chrono-Z) CapaH sure, PeTA does it all the time to KFC.
[07:41] (CapaH) e-Hernick: So as long as I do so on the sidewalk?
[07:41] (CapaH) i.e. the sidewalk is not their property?
[07:41] (e-Hernick) CapaH: yeah
[07:41] (MikeyD) i mean, dont get me wrong, our healthcare systems suck ass currently
[07:42] (MikeyD) and has since medicare
[07:42] (e-Hernick) CapaH: don't touch anybody
[07:42] (Fretless) back to the grind for me Netware woo hooo "NOT" later it was a pleasure having some sensible discussion
[07:42] (e-Hernick) CapaH: you might get people trying to provoke you
[07:42] (MikeyD) however, i still can choose my doctor, and pick up and move if i dont like the hospitals in my area
[07:42] (CapaH) e-Hernick: Could I have a chair set up on the sidewalk holding the sign? i.e. so people can walk past
[07:42] (CapaH) e-Hernick: Thanks for the advice btw :)
[07:42] (JanetB) heh, speaking of inspectors, I am waiting for the final inspection to the addition of my home
[07:42] (MikeyD) government has fucked up healthcare for us in the biggest way
[07:42] (Chrono-Z) I wonder whatever happened with the PeTA lawsuit where they filed againist KFC for assault because their automatic sprinklers went off and soaked the protesters.
[07:42] (e-Hernick) CapaH: a chair? That's not a matter of free speech. There could be municipal laws against setting up chairs in the public thoroughfare
[07:42] (Veep) Janet, if there is anything wrong, slip him a $100, im sure he will pass it
[07:43] (MikeyD) then again, i think government should have no involvement in professional license of professions anyways
[07:43] (rightoooo) MikeyD you can do that with universal healthcare aswell
[07:43] (JanetB) tell me WHY did I need to pay 150.00 to get a permit to make and addition to MY home?
[07:43] (CapaH) e-Hernick: really.... so I would *have to* stand?
[07:43] (MikeyD) not the plans for UC that ive seen
[07:43] (Veep) hehe, because they can
[07:43] (e-Hernick) CapaH: having a message doesn't give you special rights.. so if you are usually allowed to have a chair, you still can
[07:43] (MikeyD) ive seen drawn districts this came up
[07:43] (_Forbin) WASHINGTON -- U.S. Senate Democrats, hoping to raise pressure on President George W. Bush and his fellow Republicans to pull troops from Iraq, have scheduled an around-the-clock war debate starting on Tuesday.
[07:43] * _Forbin http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/7/16/212733.shtml?s=lh
[07:43] (_Forbin) theyre going allllll night tonight
[07:43] (Veep) tell me why i need to pay $30 a year to have a dog licence
[07:43] (_Forbin) :)0
[07:43] (Veep) LOL
[07:43] (JanetB) veep.. actually, he has passed all the other inspections with no bribe
[07:43] (e-Hernick) CapaH: if you have trouble standing for long periods of time, a doctor's exemption would probably let you bring a chair anywhere you wanted
[07:43] (MikeyD) dog license?
[07:43] (MikeyD) what a stupid tax
[07:44] (CapaH) e-Hernick: Eh no particular physical reason, just the fact that I would rather not stand a long time :)
[07:44] (Veep) yeah, to have a dog in my town, you gotta pay for a dog licence each year
[07:44] (e-Hernick) CapaH: also, I'm not saying that a chair on the sidewalk is necessarily illegal in your area.. it's just not a federal matter.. local laws vary
[07:44] (MikeyD) thats government becoming too big but running out of reasons to justify taking more money from you
[07:44] (JanetB) veep.. oh I know I have 2 dogs
[07:44] (JanetB) and I have to have them lisenced
[07:44] (MikeyD) what country is this again? i need to avoid it
[07:44] (Chrono-Z) Does the tax atleast pay for durable tags and a database incase your pet goes missing?
[07:44] (CapaH) e-Hernick: So I would need to find out if having a chair on the sidewalk is legal basically :)
[07:44] (Veep) LOL
[07:44] (Veep) america
[07:44] (Veep) maine specifically
[07:44] (Chrono-Z) I mean that would be somewhat reasonable if so.
[07:44] (VT) _Forbin I think that vote will come to nothing.
[07:44] (MikeyD) you have to license your dogs yearly in maine?
[07:44] (Veep) what town services does my dog use?
[07:44] (Veep) haha
[07:45] (Veep) yeah $30 bucks a pop
[07:45] (JanetB) you have to lisense them yearly in Az too
[07:45] (MikeyD) what
[07:45] (MikeyD) the
[07:45] (MikeyD) fuck
[07:45] (Chrono-Z) I suppose they have to pay someone to pick up all the dog crap that most neglectful owners leave about.
[07:45] (Veep) i forgot to pay one year and the police phoned my house to remind me to renew or they would visit
[07:45] (MikeyD) you know whats sad
[07:45] (CapaH) e-Hernick: Can my message say specifically NOT to business at the place I am protesting at?
[07:45] (e-Hernick) CapaH: yeah.. you need to make sure the chair doesn't block the public thoroughfare or endangered traffic in any way.. for example, if people have to get off the sidewalk and into the street to avoid your chair..
[07:45] (Veep) its a freeekin dog!
[07:45] (Nockian) haha you people pay money to the government to own a dog?
[07:45] (Nockian) rofl
[07:45] (CapaH) "to do"
[07:45] (MikeyD) we've returned to the very same tyranny and opression that we fought the worlds most superior army to escape from
[07:45] (e-Hernick) CapaH: well, as long as you don't engage in libel or slander..
[07:45] (MikeyD) here we are back at square one
[07:46] (Veep) LOL, no one picks up dog shit, let alone the town. Actually my town its illegal not to pick up your dogs shit. Fine or something
[07:46] (Nockian) MikeyD: people forget that government officials are meant to be public servants, not pompous asses who fancy themselves leaders.
[07:46] (CapaH) interesting
[07:46] (JanetB) well someone has to pay for the dog shelters
[07:46] (e-Hernick) slander is spoken defamation, libel is written defamation...
[07:46] (Veep) no dog shelters in my town
[07:46] (JanetB) none in my either
[07:47] (JanetB) they have one in Mesa but not her
[07:47] (e-Hernick) so don't defame the business, don't lie about them, don't accuse their owners of things they haven't done or of specific moral failing for which you don't have solid proof
[07:47] (MikeyD) i agree
[07:47] (CapaH) e-Hernick: So lierally, at *ANY* place in the city -- so long as I am on a sidewalk, I can hold any sign?
[07:47] (JanetB) here
[07:47] (e-Hernick) remember, it can't be slander if it's the truth
[07:47] (MikeyD) man FDR really fucked us over
[07:47] (TheTailor) Not FDR
[07:47] (TheTailor) LBJ
[07:48] (TheTailor) He's the one that allowed the assholes to spend SS funds
[07:48] (JanetB) but it is a county lisense, and say your dog gets out and they pick it up.. it is 100.00 to get it back every day it is there for boarding!
[07:48] (e-Hernick) CapaH: well, I haven't said that. There can be additional restrictions. If you're in front of certain government installations, for example...
[07:48] (CapaH) not a government building
[07:48] (CapaH) it would be commercial businesses only
[07:48] (e-Hernick) CapaH: Or if the local police has been bought off by said commercial business
[07:48] (td) JanetB: why shouldnt it be
[07:48] (MikeyD) actually, i think it was more fdr than lbj
[07:48] (Veep) lets see, i have boat permit, car registration, car inspection, dog licence, building permit, permit to throw away trash at town dump, permit to visit my town park, yard sale permit, etc...
[07:49] (MikeyD) i dont remember lbj installing his own judges who would pass his socialist inititives
[07:49] (CapaH) My concern is the owner of the business may likely call the police that I am disturbing his business, running off customers or such --- what would I do if approached by a police officer on this?
[07:49] (JanetB) cause I am paying 50.00 a year for the lisense, I am already paying for that boarding
[07:49] (e-Hernick) CapaH: You could always go to the police and announce what you're going to do in advance.
[07:49] (e-Hernick) CapaH: you tell them exactly what you're going to do, where you're going to protest
[07:49] (Nockian) Veep: your papers please! (/thick nazi accent)
[07:49] (CapaH) e-Hernick: Is there some advantage in doing that?
[07:49] (e-Hernick) CapaH: bring the signs with you
[07:49] (Veep) LOL Nockian
[07:49] (td) since when does 50$ cover boarding when you are irresponsible and lose your dog
[07:49] (MikeyD) i mean, the new deal and the great society are both equally as bad, but fdr kinda kicked off the entitlement nanny state mentality
[07:49] (Chrono-Z) Would probably help if you are friendly to the police officer and calmy explain what you are doing.
[07:49] (Chrono-Z) A key thing that many protesters forget.
[07:49] (e-Hernick) CapaH: advantage? Well, if they tell you "yes", then you're set, if they tell you "no", you call your lawyer
[07:49] (Veep) so many permits these days, i dont even know if im doing anything illegal anymore
[07:50] (CapaH) if they tell me no, could I do it anyways? :)
[07:50] (CapaH) I dont have a lawyer :P
[07:50] (e-Hernick) CapaH: oh, if they tell you no, you get a lawyer.
[07:50] (MikeyD) which is why you should seek to vote in ways that limits the growth or downsizes the size of gov as a whole
[07:50] (e-Hernick) CapaH: or you do it anywy
[07:50] (Veep) oh shit, i forgot to renew my IRC permit
[07:50] (RTistGone) i missed the scroll, what is being protested?
[07:50] (Veep) hehe
[07:50] (e-Hernick) CapaH: as long as you're within the law, you have nothing to fear
[07:50] (Chrono-Z) Veep Interesting enough you can have children with no one doing as much as batting an eyelash muchless a permit. :)
[07:51] (JanetB) casue my dogs have never been out and one is 18 years old, I have paid 1,800.00.. I am entitled to a few days boarding, IF my dog got out
[07:51] (CapaH) e-Hernick: Except people not liking me :P
[07:51] (Veep) yeah, wheres the child permit? sound like a new stream of revenue
[07:51] (RTistGone) 18 yrs, long time
[07:51] (Nockian) Veep: the best permits are the ones that you need to exercise your 1st and 2nd amendment "rights". you need a fucking permit. hello?
[07:51] (e-Hernick) CapaH: not liking you? Well, you're not going there to be loved
[07:51] (JanetB) yeah, she is old..
[07:51] (CapaH) e-Hernick: for sure :)
[07:51] (RTistGone) i have one thats 17
[07:51] (JanetB) but healthy, the vet.. said she has a few good years yet
[07:51] (RTistGone) what kind?
[07:51] (JanetB) she is a mutt
[07:52] (RTistGone) thats great
[07:52] (Veep) if my dog got out and they wanted $500 for boarding, id say keep him
[07:52] (e-Hernick) CapaH: you go protest, it's not anything illegal. See what happens.
[07:52] (RTistGone) mine has a couple issues but i figure a year maybe
[07:52] (TheTailor) Veep, right, you can get a new dog for free
[07:53] (e-Hernick) Veep: then they'll bill you for the boarding and for the euthanasia
[07:53] (Veep) LOL, proubably
[07:53] (JanetB) I keep expecting the vet to tell me she needs this or that.. every year, she is slowing down, but she is healthy otherwise
[07:53] (MikeyD) god i love esata
[07:53] (Veep) i should just go to the vet for healthcare, much cheaper
[07:53] (MikeyD) i wonder how fast the next standard is gonna be
[07:53] (Veep) ive bought pills from the vet before, no joke. dirt cheap
[07:54] (MikeyD) im moving 400mb a second
[07:54] (MikeyD) bytes, not bits
[07:54] (JanetB) veep, you are kidding of course.. I pay 150.00 a year for her check up
[07:54] (RTistGone) and youre not even dizzy!
[07:54] (Veep) no kidding, its cheaper than doctors
[07:54] (rightoooo) CapaH may i ask for what you want to protest, or against what?
[07:54] (Veep) i have a friend who is a vet
[07:54] * MikeyD hugs his 2 sonnett fusion 500p
[07:54] (JanetB) I only pay my doctor 50.00 for a check up hehe
[07:54] (JanetB) ohhh ok
[07:55] (RTistGone) yah but you dont bite :P
[07:55] (Veep) well without insurance, its more
[07:55] (JanetB) hahah RTistGone
[07:55] (e-Hernick) Veep: I understand lots of vets also do some human medecine and pharmacy on the side, for some extra profits from uninsured people who don't want to pay hospital rates
[07:55] (JanetB) veep.. no that us with out insurance
[07:55] (Veep) nice price
[07:55] (JanetB) us=is
[07:55] (rightoooo) CapaH you there?
[07:56] (Chrono-Z) Reminds me of something my mother would do. She is an RN and she would by the antibiotics they make for fish tanks and use them instead of spending money on doctors and prescriptions.
[07:56] (Veep) yeah kinda sad in america people get health care from animal doctors.
[07:56] (RTistGone) my dogs alternative medicine vet uses a lot of human drugs and always says if i need them myself feel free
[07:56] (Chrono-Z) Always thought it was strange, but she seemed to know what she was doing and never had a problem with it.
[07:56] (Chrono-Z) I guess they only costed a few bucks for a whole mess of them at any ol pet store.
[07:57] (e-Hernick) Veep: rural vets in the south especially, I hear many of them who work with farm animals, nowadays also do checkups of illegal alien farm workers
[07:57] (Veep) yeah, kinda sad. but i belive it
[07:57] (e-Hernick) Veep: and there's a lot of illnesses it doesn't take more than a vet to treat..
[07:57] (Veep) just think, those same sick farm workers are working with your food! and you eat it
[07:57] (VT) Hey folks, this new "bio" space suit by MIT lookes cool. Laura Croft would love this.....http://www.tgdaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=18&Itemid=41&slideshow=20070716
[07:58] (Chrono-Z) Yeah it's sad, but at the same time isn't a MD over rated sometimes? I mean lets be honest it doesn't take a MD to do something like set of bone or put in a few stitches.
[07:58] (e-Hernick) Veep: they're not sick, they got farm-level medical care, with checkups more much frequent than most americans
[07:58] (hans--) well there are lots of PA or nurse practioners these days
[07:58] (e-Hernick) Veep: you get a checkup maybe twice a year? how often do you think a milk cow or an illegal alien gets a checkup?
[07:58] (Veep) well, some are sick. everyone gets sick
[07:59] (freetrad3) Ive dont minor surgery on myself and my kids, but of course I need doctors when I come across something mysterious or serious.
[07:59] (e-Hernick) Veep: yeah, everyone gets sick, so when you say "(Veep) just think, those same sick farm workers are working with your food! and you eat it"
[07:59] (Chrono-Z) hans-- this is true and I'm still pissed about that too. Last time I went to the doctor i never saw the bastard and got treated by a nurse pracitioner, yet they still billed my insurance as if he cared for me.
[07:59] (e-Hernick) every country has sick farm workers
[07:59] (e-Hernick) it's not specific to illegal alines
[08:00] (Chrono-Z) Not that I care about the cost since it was all of a $20 co-pay, but if I'm getting charged to see a doc damnit I want a MD.
[08:00] (RTistGone) VT the sports car of space suits
[08:00] (e-Hernick) I bet illegal aliens get treated better by american vets than they get in their native countries
[08:00] (MikeyD) HD Format Support 1080PsF23.98/24, 1080i48, 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 720p59.94, 720p60, 720p50
[08:00] (MikeyD) woot
[08:00] (Veep) point is if we had universal healthcare, there would be less sick people and a healthier society
[08:00] (hans--) well the docs suggest it speeds up their patients' care, it allows them to treat and see the more seriously ill patients I suppose.
[08:00] (TheTailor) Veep, you have no way of knowing that
[08:00] (e-Hernick) Veep: uhm
[08:01] (MikeyD) and youd be forcing people to treat you at the point of a gun
[08:01] (e-Hernick) Veep: HOW IS THAT YOUR POINT? You haven't made a single argument in that direction until now. It's not your point, it's a completely new, unsupported claim you just made..
[08:01] (Veep) so by not treating sick people, society is healthier?
[08:01] (MikeyD) who would treat people anymore if they cant use their skills on the open market place to acheive wealth?
[08:01] (TheTailor) Veep, if people don't take care of themselves, you won'thave a healthier society. Better eating habits and washing their hands would be a good start.
[08:01] (freetrad3) E, Depends on the country, Though alternative health care is very popular in mexico they get services very easily. And they dont often need a prescription to get meds.
[08:01] (TheTailor) Veep, get people to exercise
[08:01] (e-Hernick) Veep: you see, it's the role of the people to keep themselves healthy
[08:02] (freetrad3) Then again. I think the FDA is one government program I actually support
[08:02] (Chrono-Z) hans-- yeah and that's all fine and good, but the doctor never saw me, I consider it fraud for him to bill me under his name if he didn't do anything.
[08:02] (freetrad3) Morning tt..
[08:02] (JanetB) well from my understanding a PA had all the training of a DR.. but they are just under the Dr.. malpractice insurance and there degree...
[08:02] (freetrad3) Slow wake up this morning.
[08:02] (TheTailor) Mornin' chief
[08:02] (e-Hernick) Veep: and those who don't have medical insurance, don't want it, or aren't willing to sacrifice a few comforts to have it.
[08:02] (JanetB) so I am not sure they are not as good as a dr... are they, since they have all the training?
[08:02] (freetrad3) Not all the training, but much of it..
[08:02] (Veep) i dont see more healthcare as more pills. i think pills are just as dangerous as the medicine man in the 1800's Pills are so new, we dont know much long term affects
[08:03] (e-Hernick) Veep: omg
[08:03] (TheTailor) Veep, the Chinese had pills 1000's of years ago
[08:03] (e-Hernick) Veep: you've just discredited all of modern medecine
[08:03] (Chrono-Z) Despite the fact I was nearly in septic shock from a fast moving infection, which still has me upset since I was in extreme pain, but the nurse couldn't and refused to give me anything more than some over the counter crap because she couldn't prescribe it not being a md.
[08:03] (Veep) not all pills
[08:03] (e-Hernick) Veep: don't you realize that people live much longer with modern medical science?
[08:03] (Veep) yes, agreed.
[08:04] (e-Hernick) Veep: and that when you have a heart condition, or a renal condition, or arthritis, or any of thousands of disease
[08:04] (e-Hernick) the solution isn't a psychologist to talk you into being better
[08:04] (e-Hernick) no, the solution is often a pill, or a combination of them
[08:04] (Veep) but i also think that giving people a pill for everything isnt the answer. especially when the doctor has 5 minutes to evaluate you
[08:04] (freetrad3) Chrono, thats why I like my HMO. If I need something I can get anything.
[08:04] (e-Hernick) Veep: then what is the answer?
[08:04] (freetrad3) Of course I belong to the best hmo in the nation.
[08:04] (e-Hernick) aryuvedic-transcendental meditation?
[08:05] (e-Hernick) christian science?
[08:05] (MikeyD) ha
[08:05] (Veep) not sure.
[08:05] (e-Hernick) I think modern medical science has better answers than any of those other systems.
[08:05] (MikeyD) christian science
[08:05] (MikeyD) thats as insane as combining military and intelligence
[08:05] (e-Hernick) Veep: you complain that the health system is broken, but you don't offer any solution. "Pills are bad!" Ok, what's your alternative? Prayer?
[08:05] (Chrono-Z) freetrad3 yeah normally I can to with me PPO, it was just one of those emergency situations and a crappy urgent care place was the most close medical care facility to go to.
[08:05] (Eeyore) e-Hernick modern medical science has the only answers.
[08:05] (freetrad3) I dont believe in alternative medicine myself to be honest.
[08:05] (Veep) pills are not bad, just over prescribed
[08:06] (freetrad3) I prefer standard medicine or what I would call scientific medicine.
[08:06] (freetrad3) Double Blind Controlled Placebo studies etc.
[08:06] (e-Hernick) Eeyore: if you go against mms or the ama pope... you will be treated badly
[08:06] (DeDannan) how about a healthcare system that focuses on prevention rather than on treating symptoms, especially of chronic illnesses? nah..no money in that..nevermind..
[08:06] (Chrono-Z) Hey some of that alternative stuff isn't bad for minor things. Aloe for sunburns or some herbal teas to calm the nerves. Those nutters that want to use it to cure cancer...not so much.
[08:06] (Veep) i dont have an alternative, but it will be a good thing as medicine science advances
[08:07] (Eeyore) e-Hernick who?
[08:07] (Veep) yes, prevention would be sooooo much better
[08:07] (Eeyore) and http://zionism-israel.com/israel_news/2007/07/report-former-israeli-agent-predicts.html seems to be the news of the day
[08:07] (e-Hernick) FT: scientific studies of new medication are necessary..
[08:07] (Veep) focus on being healthy, staying healthy, etc..
[08:07] (e-Hernick) Veep: americans are fatter than ever
[08:07] (Chrono-Z) But you know prevention starts at home. It's just as much the fault of the patients.
[08:07] (Veep) hehe yep
[08:07] (freetrad3) DeD No I agree, and my HMO not only is forward thinking they will send you a reminder asking you to get preventative treatment and early detection.
[08:08] (Veep) its because they ran the numbers: if person A gets preventative treatment for disease B, then we pay less than if they didnt
[08:08] (freetrad3) E, Take Echinacear, there is 0 evidence and they did a huge study that it helps prevents colds or flue, shortens the duration or that it reduces the lenth of sickness.
[08:08] (Veep) therefore PROFIT
[08:09] (Eeyore) Chrono-Z aloe is not alternative. what is amazing though is glucosamine sulpahte. that IS alrtewrnative and its astonishing. doctors now do reccomend it for arhtritis
[08:09] (freetrad3) A huge study was done and yet people still buy it by the truck load.
[08:09] (Chrono-Z) That and personally my insurance is great about prevention, they even reward people who lose weight and quit smoking with lowered rates and have lots of programs for people to use to be educated about being healthy and preventing illness. But even to their own admission it's woefully underapperciated and seldom used.
[08:09] (Eeyore) brb 1 min
[08:09] (e-Hernick) freetrad3: yes, but it isn't prescribed by doctors, is it?
[08:09] (freetrad3) They took a huge study they split it placebo and echinacea. and they exposed them to the virus.
[08:09] (e-Hernick) freetrad3: and it isn't even regulated by government
[08:09] (freetrad3) There was 0 difference.
[08:09] (Veep) nice Chrono. Glad to see some proactive action
[08:09] (e-Hernick) freetrad3: people want to take placebos
[08:09] (e-Hernick) freetrad3: echinacea isn't particularly unsafe either, so why make it illegal
[08:10] (freetrad3) It shouldnt be regulated because its a harmless worthless herb with no medicinal values.
[08:10] (e-Hernick) exactly
[08:10] (e-Hernick) is it regulated?
[08:10] (Chrono-Z) Eeyore eh aloe has always worked great for my sunburns, had a plant of it for years. Seems like a reasonable alternative for me atleast.
[08:10] (freetrad3) Legalize pot but dont legalize it as medicine not unless the FDA approves it for treatment of a disease.
[08:10] (e-Hernick) freetrad3: what if your doctor told you to take some unregulated plant
[08:11] (e-Hernick) like aloe
[08:11] (Veep) how about price sensitive food purchases? if you go to mcdonalds and you weigh 100lbs, burger costs 1.25, but if you are overweight and 200lbs , the burger is $3.25
[08:11] (e-Hernick) or chamomile
[08:11] (Chrono-Z) The glucosamine is good stuff though, I used it myself for awhile.
[08:11] (Eeyore) Chrono-Z what I meant by not alternativbe was, its mainstream. aloe is amazing yeah
[08:11] (Veep) LOL, just tossing the idea out there
[08:11] (Chrono-Z) Fish oil too.
[08:11] (e-Hernick) or valerian root, or guarana, or whatever
[08:11] (freetrad3) I have an issue with Pot being legal under the Guise of Medical marijuana, It should be legal because its a drug similar to alcohol only less strong, used for relaxation. I dont personally like pot and havent smoked it literally in decades.
[08:11] (freetrad3) But still.
[08:11] (DeDannan) echinacea can be dangerous to those with certain allergies or medical conditions
[08:11] (e-Hernick) DeDannan: so can eggs and peanuts
[08:12] (e-Hernick) and shellfish, they kill a lot of people too
[08:12] (freetrad3) Valarian root has like 1 /1000th the potentcy of valium, its absurd.
[08:12] (e-Hernick) what about raw pork? eat that and you die!
[08:12] (e-Hernick) and it's sold openly.
[08:12] (DeDannan) e-Hernick, none of which are sold as health remedies
[08:12] (CometBaby) holy cow everyone .. just read a headline that says Edwards wife says that Hillary is "acting like a man"
[08:12] (Eeyore) freetrad3 you havent smoked it in decades and neither have I but I can tell you, yuou are incorect about one thing. its no longer less strong. in the 70s marijuana was maybe 2% THC and hash around 5%. now the plant itself is closer to 25 or 30% THC. its not the same drug anymore
[08:12] (freetrad3) Ded, is that right ? I had not read that, I am very glad to know that. I will use it in futher debates..
[08:12] (CometBaby) trying to load the article .. it's sloooooooow
[08:13] (freetrad3) Hey comet!
[08:13] (TheTailor) What's the URL?
[08:13] (freetrad3) Edwards is getting desperate.
[08:13] (Chrono-Z) Funny you mention that e-Hernick discovered a big part of my chronic pain actually came from eatting pork and chicken.
[08:13] (freetrad3) Hes in my opinion he doesnt have a chance in hell.
[08:13] (Chrono-Z) We think it has to do with the antibiotics that existed in trace ammounts.
[08:13] (Chrono-Z) I'm extremely allergic to sulfa.
[08:13] (freetrad3) Its hillary or Obama and I think its Hillary vs Rudy and that will keep Bloomberg out.
[08:14] (freetrad3) I am supporting Rudy.
[08:14] (e-Hernick) I just say Hillary has already won.
[08:14] (Aufklaren) I think Russia is backing down over the diplomatic brouhaha. I don't think they're going to retaliate to the expulsion of the Russian diplomats.
[08:14] (e-Hernick) I'm sure Rudy will put up a good fight.
[08:14] (Chrono-Z) Went vegetarian a few weeks ago and never felt better. It's the damnedest thing.
[08:14] (freetrad3) At least at this point
[08:14] (Aufklaren) We should use this as an opportunity to do more.
[08:14] (DeDannan) Chrono-Z, it may be hard to find in your area..but there are sources for pork and poultry produced without antibiotics or hormones
[08:14] (freetrad3) Auf, Good, thats kind of like what the did with america, they first threatened us then they backed off.
[08:14] (Aufklaren) Clearly the Russians don't want any attention drawn to the Litvinenko case (given that the order to kill him almost certainly came from the Kremlin), so we should keep drawing attention to it.
[08:14] (CometBaby) hi FreeTrade :)
[08:15] (CometBaby) well I read the article and I don't see where it says that at all
[08:15] (freetrad3) Morning comet!
[08:15] (Chrono-Z) DeDannan yeah i've looked into those, but for the price it kind of turns out to almost not be worth it.
[08:15] (Aufklaren) We should demand his extradition again, and then start expelling more diplomats.
[08:15] (CometBaby) TT.. here is the url http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/07/17/elizabeth_edwards/index2.html
[08:15] (Chrono-Z) One of those if you are going might as well go all the way things.
[08:15] (DeDannan) Chrono-Z, yep..it is pricey
[08:15] (Aufklaren) We should also grant asylum to any Russian exiles whose applications are still pending.
[08:15] (rightoooo) Aufklaren where were Russian diplomats expulsed?
[08:15] (CometBaby) FreeTrade see msg
[08:15] (freetrad3) Im barely awake, work up at 7:10 which is late for me, I think Ill start about 9am today.
[08:15] (e-Hernick) rightoooo: from the UK
[08:15] (Aufklaren) rightooo: Britain expelled Russian diplomats. I imagine they went back to Russia.
[08:15] (rightoooo) Aufklaren all?
[08:15] (Chrono-Z) I'm one of those types that are happy to just eat a bowl of beans and corn bread.
[08:15] (Aufklaren) rightooo: No. Four.
[08:15] (rightoooo) Aufklaren i see
[08:16] (Aufklaren) rightooo: And we suspended visa stuff.
[08:16] (Veep) i love this "where the usa gov money goes" poster. http://www.deviantart.com/view/9410862/
[08:16] (Chrono-Z) Doesn't work for some folks I guess, they feel like they are missing out.
[08:16] (freetrad3) hahahahahha
[08:16] (rightoooo) Aufklaren has it to do with the murder of Litwinenko?
[08:16] (freetrad3) Iranians say Squirrels are being used as spies by americans..
[08:16] (freetrad3) jhahahaha
[08:16] (DeDannan) Chrono-Z, hehe..sometimes I'd rather have beans and cornbread than a steak dinner :)
[08:16] (Aufklaren) rightooo: Yep.
[08:16] (e-Hernick) "Russia warns UK over expulsions" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6902046.stm "Prime Minister Gordon Brown said on Monday Britain would make "no apologies" for expelling the four Russians."
[08:16] (Aufklaren) rightooo: They're refusing to extradite him, and the government is taking it seriously.
[08:17] (Aufklaren) As they should. He killed a British citizen in a particularly horrible and lingering way and left radiation all over the capital.
[08:17] (e-Hernick) "Mr Grushko said if Russia expelled four diplomats for every extradition request Britain had turned down recently, it would mean 80 UK diplomats being sent home."
[08:17] (Aufklaren) Extradite him = the him in this case being Andre Lugovoi.
[08:17] (Aufklaren) The guy who killed Litvinenko.
[08:17] (JupaSaur) one of bush's stooges is giving a speech about the terrorist report on cnn now. same old underlying bush crap. we should let him be a dictator becuase there is a threat
[08:18] (Eeyore) JupaSaur what report?
[08:18] (Aufklaren) e-Hernick: This speaks to the basic Russian ignorance of democracy. The government, by law, cannot just decide to hand people over. It's up to the courts and independent judiciary.
[08:18] (Aufklaren) e-Hernick: But the Russians think all these powers are at the whim of the Prime Minister.
[08:18] (DeDannan) JupaSaur, which one..Moe, Larry, or Curly?
[08:18] (hans--) lol
[08:18] (freetrad3) Auf, I bet they still dont extradite him.
[08:18] (Aufklaren) Of course they won't extradite him.
[08:18] (e-Hernick) JupaSaur: the preferred title is 'emperor'
[08:18] (freetrad3) Or rather allow it.
[08:18] (rightoooo) Aufklaren i think its very good of the British government that they act the way they do, they dont back up
[08:18] (Aufklaren) If they did, the court would probably prove that the Kremlin ordered the assassination.
[08:18] (gopp) freetrad3 wow prefect disk is great
[08:19] (gopp) I used it demo
[08:19] (Kalo) does anyone know the purpose of the color coded threat monitor?
[08:19] (freetrad3) God Im lagging, I should set up my new computer today.
[08:19] (gopp) freetrad3 it works like a charm
[08:19] (gopp) freetrad3 you got a new computer
[08:19] (JupaSaur) DeDannan they all sound alike. this one is a dirty blonde female
[08:19] (gopp) ????
[08:19] (Aufklaren) Kalo: It's to let government agencies and private companies move through degrees of awareness and preparation for terrorism.
[08:19] (gopp) freetrad3 how many computer have you bought in the last year
[08:19] (CometBaby) FreeTrade a new puter? :)
[08:19] (CometBaby) what did you get?
[08:19] (Aufklaren) Kalo: That's the general idea, anyway.
[08:19] (freetrad3) Im going to run one as a buisness only computer and music and media and this one for irc, web research (Not work related) and so on.
[08:19] (Chrono-Z) New puters? I'm jealous of someone.
[08:19] (gopp) what did you get freetrad3, wow you bought like four new computer in the past year
[08:19] (rightoooo) Veep its a nice poster
[08:19] (Kalo) Aufk: I think it's rather supercilious
[08:19] (Veep) i know the usa isnt perfect, but I would much rather the usa have secret wars, and not make them public. makes everyone in the world hate us, and breeds more terrorists
[08:19] (gopp) what did you get freetrad3, wow you bought like four new computer in the past year?????
[08:20] (Aufklaren) For example, when Britain changed from "severe" to "critical" a couple of weeks ago over the London carbombs and the Glasgow attack, that meant that Customs & Excise and port authorities changed their degrees of awareness - how many people they searched, how many guards they had.
[08:20] (MikeyD) sounds like you just need a decent server with decent services
[08:20] (Aufklaren) Kalo: It does have a practical purpose.
[08:20] (rightoooo) Veep its amazing how much money flows into the military budget
[08:20] (Veep) its not like the usa is going to change, might as well do it in secret
[08:20] (freetrad3) Chrono, Yeah its state of the art about 3.5 out of 5 in quality and power etc.
[08:20] (Kalo) Aufk: I guess
[08:20] (freetrad3) Bt I deciced on two computers splitting my work rather than one for all.
[08:20] (gopp) what did you get freetrad3, wow you bought like four new computer in the past year?????????
[08:21] (freetrad3) No warez, No chances on my other computer.
[08:21] (Veep) imagine if the military was a private company? for profit? invade iraq, take resources, profit!
[08:21] (freetrad3) No urls posted on irc.
[08:21] (MikeyD) my home server does video and audio streaming, backups, automation, screens my bitchx process for irc, bittorrent, and hosts my daylite database for werk that i can connect to anywhere i have internet connectivity
[08:21] (freetrad3) I will network them though.
[08:21] (Chrono-Z) I'm dying to get a new one, but I really don't want to have to go with Vista since I've had several displeasures with it. At the same time I don't want to fall victim of becoming a mac queer.
[08:21] (MikeyD) not to mention i have about
[08:21] (MikeyD) wait, let me add it up
[08:21] (Chrono-Z) And since it has to be a laptop there isn't very much competition.
[08:21] (Veep) why not privatize the military similar to healthcare?
[08:21] (DeDannan) Veep, give it time :)
[08:21] (freetrad3) This has viiv which might be partly hype but I was impressed.
[08:21] (JupaSaur) DeDannan this one is named townsend
[08:22] (freetrad3) Its like media center only better.
[08:22] (gopp) freetrad3 where did you ge tit
[08:22] (gopp) Chrono-Z so get a linux based laptop
[08:22] (Veep) Privitize Dept of Education. Make 4 year olds pay to take classes
[08:22] (Veep) profit!
[08:22] (gopp) thier many companies that sell linux based laptops
[08:23] (Chrono-Z) gopp I've never actually seen one for sale before, maybe that's something to consider.
[08:23] (gopp) yes
[08:23] (gopp) you want a linux
[08:23] (gopp) err link
[08:23] (Eeyore) this is kinda interesting. http://zionism-israel.com/israel_news/2007/07/report-former-israeli-agent-predicts.html CometBaby if your here please give it a read
[08:23] (Chrono-Z) Yeah sure if you have one handy.
[08:24] (Aufklaren) Eeyore: I'm fairly inclined to be skeptical of stuff like that.
[08:24] (Eeyore) Aufklaren yes as you shoudl be.
[08:24] (Eeyore) bbl fellas
[08:24] (CometBaby) will do .. thx :)
[08:24] (freetrad3) I aint reading it, tell us about it.
[08:24] (Chrono-Z) I generally get skeptical everytime I see the word zionism.
[08:24] (Aufklaren) Eeyore: I don't see how an Israeli agent would have knowledge of American plans to attack Iran and Syria prior to the expiration of Bush's term. If it's being shared with the Israelis, it will be known to dozens of Americans at the very least. The information would have come out.
[08:24] (gopp) Chrono-Z http://www.linuxcertified.com/linux-laptop-lctp60.html
[08:24] (gopp) Chrono-Z get this
[08:25] (Chrono-Z) Cool thanks gopp!
[08:25] (freetrad3) I only read or offer urls to back my posiions, I dont usually use urls to make my debates.
[08:25] (freetrad3) No offense, but thats my prefferred style.
[08:25] (gopp) freetrad3 so that like 4 computers in one year
[08:25] (Veep) i read a story the other day about the 1950's where they had food people in public schools to make sure lunches had all of the food groups and portion controlled. My high schools lunch has pizza, mozzarella sticks, burgers, fries,
[08:25] (gopp) freetrad3 or am I wrong
[08:25] (Chrono-Z) freetrad3 which is nice. It's rather annoying when someones arguement consists of a list of URLs then demands an instant response.
[08:26] (Veep) when i was in high school
[08:26] (Veep) not sure what it looks like now
[08:26] (freetrad3) I always make an argument first. THEN I back it up with factual sources or with multiple sources which man not be as credible as a single source depending on the issue.
[08:26] (freetrad3) GOP, 5
[08:26] (gopp) Linux Journal Editors (November 2006): "The Lenovo ThinkPad models from the T series are relatively inexpensive, durably built, and the driver support in Linux is very good. Wireless and wired network support, video and sound work well with most recent distributions out there. These laptops run solidly for years and perform very well."
[08:26] (freetrad3) Wait. 4
[08:26] (gopp) freetrad3 you got 5 computers in one year
[08:26] (gopp) freetrad3 you must be rich
[08:26] (gopp) freetrad3 making the big $$$
[08:26] (gopp) that great
[08:26] (JupaSaur) the press in the q&a are really hammering townsend with inconsistencies :-)
[08:27] (freetrad3) this new one, my wifes though that could have been last year, I just bought my daughter a new laptop and my son a new desktop (A bargain) this year or last.
[08:27] (Chrono-Z) Veep yeah well now-a-days I have a feeling that they count pizza sauce as a vegetable.
[08:27] (TheTailor) gopp, this T22 is probably the best computer I ever owned.
[08:27] (freetrad3) Gopp. Well Its not just making money its also that other than technology I am very frugle.
[08:27] (MikeyD) 7.49TB total storage on my server currently =)
[08:28] (freetrad3) I am very practical with how I spend money.
[08:28] (gopp) TheTailor it is wow
[08:28] (gopp) freetrad3 it seem you buy tons of computers
[08:28] (gopp) that great
[08:28] (gopp) MikeyD how di dyou amount that much space
[08:28] (Chrono-Z) Geez, I never managed to fill up my 40gb hdd on my last pc, I was overblow with having 120 gb on this one, muchless 7.48tb.
[08:28] (MikeyD) 4tb of that is esata storage
[08:28] (TheTailor) gopp, I bought a second used T22 for part in cse this one ever breaks down :-)
[08:28] (Chrono-Z) What on earth do you keep on there?
[08:29] (MikeyD) heh, easy dude, 1.45ghz MDD g4 +scsi card + esata card
[08:29] (freetrad3) I have a shitload of computers I need to cannabilize and rebuild into better ones and give them away to people I know who dont have a computer. Like my foreman it would benefit me as well as him.
[08:29] (gopp) MikeyD but how did you get a 4tb esata drive
[08:29] (freetrad3) I could email him shit.
[08:29] (MikeyD) Chrono-Z: everything really
[08:29] (MikeyD) gopp: 2 sonnet fusion 500p enclosures filled up and striped
[08:29] (Chrono-Z) freetrad3 I give my old ones to my mother hah. It works out pretty good for her.
[08:29] * _hoffman is now known as hoffman
[08:29] (freetrad3) Gopp, I dont usually buy the most epensive computers.
[08:29] * hoffman is now known as _hoffman
[08:29] (Chrono-Z) It's easier than going to the store with her and helping her pick one out then set it up.
[08:29] (gopp) freetrad3 ahh
[08:30] (gopp) freetrad3 so your new computer is not the most expesive
[08:30] (MikeyD) my video library currently is 2.27tb in size
[08:30] (gopp) expensive
[08:30] (MikeyD) another 220gb of music
[08:30] (TheTailor) FT, how much was that Lenovo laptop?
[08:30] (gopp) freetrad3 did you get this one at coscto
[08:30] (TheTailor) :-)
[08:30] * _hoffman is now known as hoffman
[08:30] (gopp) ahh wow http://www.sonnettech.com/product/fusion500p.html
[08:30] (gopp) you could fit 5 one terbyte drivers
[08:30] (freetrad3) Tt, the one I bought a couple years ago ? Very expensive, the one exception and I dont regret it one bit.
[08:31] (freetrad3) Its the best laptop I have ever had hands down.
[08:31] (TheTailor) Worth every penny huh
[08:31] (gopp) Or, fill the enclosure with five drives up to 750GB each to create a huge 3.75 Terabyte striped RAID se
[08:31] (TheTailor) I love these IBM machines
[08:31] (MikeyD) once the budget for our hardware comes in, im scrapping (almost) everything i have here and replacing it with 2 10tb xraids, 2 xserves and 2 new 8 core mac pros which im gonna run os x on one, windows on the other
[08:31] (freetrad3) Yep.. For a business use.
[08:31] (MikeyD) then mod the living fuck out of them
[08:31] (gopp) ibm think pads are the best laptops
[08:31] (MikeyD) macbook pro ) thinkpad =)
[08:31] (freetrad3) Gopp, I wouldnt argue with that
[08:32] (gopp) MikeyD how do y ou get all this money
[08:32] (hans--) I definitely like the IBM keyboards, love that clicky sound...
[08:32] (MikeyD) i work?
[08:32] (freetrad3) MikeyD, I dont even believe that.
[08:32] (MikeyD) hahahaha
[08:32] (gopp) freetrad3 but I think apple laptops are better or as good
[08:32] (TheTailor) They don't have a clicky sound
[08:32] (MikeyD) i know you dont dude, but i do =)
[08:32] (gopp) freetrad3 but the apple laptop are better then ibm
[08:32] (hans--) Yeah they do, well the ones I have have the "M" keyboards.
[08:32] (gopp) but ibm are good
[08:32] (TheTailor) Well, the laptops don't anyway
[08:32] (JupaSaur) oh, how handy, the revealing information in the nie report they are discussing is classified
[08:32] (freetrad3) Lenova is unlike any other laptio because it still has a lot of proprietary IBM software and protection software.
[08:32] (Chrono-Z) hans-- oh man i had one o fthose
[08:32] (hans--) Server keyboards...150 bucks each...I get them on ebay for 10 bucks.
[08:32] (TheTailor) hans--, there was one that also had a clicky feel
[08:32] (Chrono-Z) you could kill a map with a M keyboard.
[08:32] (MikeyD) gopp: the new stuff is coming from a product that some friends of mine and myself are about to start on with a huge amount of high end partners
[08:33] (Chrono-Z) they still sell remakes of them on the net.
[08:33] (hans--) Chrono, yah IBM farmed out the keyboard manufacturing to another vendor, I forget who though.
[08:33] (MikeyD) so for the first phase of the project, we allocated ourselves 60k for the new hardware
[08:33] (gopp) MikeyD oh I tough tit was for person use
[08:33] (MikeyD) well, the stuff i listed is
[08:33] (gopp) apple and ibm keyboards
[08:33] (gopp) where my fav keyboard evers
[08:33] (gopp) I could type so fast
[08:34] (gopp) to a Tempo™ SATA E4P or Tempo SATA X4P host controller to create the ultimate storage solution—using today's highest capacity drives, you'll have 15TB of data storage at your disposal!
[08:34] (gopp) MikeyD how much does sonnet cost
[08:34] (TheTailor) Who needs 15 TB of storage?
[08:34] (freetrad3) Lenova (Ibm) owned by the chinese or honk kong is a superior laptop the think pad series especially.
[08:34] (freetrad3) In quality parts, support and software.
[08:34] * TheTailor sees his 20 gig drive is only 60% full
[08:34] (MikeyD) for myself, since im head geek, the 2 xraids, 2 xserves, 2 macpros and new macbook pro along with 4 23 inch displays to match, an apple tv, a mac mini if theyre still around and the accessories for all come to me
[08:34] (gopp) freetrad3 what type of software does it come with
[08:34] (gopp) freetrad3 is the software bloatware
[08:34] (Chrono-Z) I guess some people are the types that save every little thing. Kind of like packrats in digital.
[08:35] (gopp) freetrad3 my friend bought a compaq laptop Fretless
[08:35] (gopp) and all the software was bloatware
[08:35] (TheTailor) FT, isn't it Lenovo?
[08:35] (freetrad3) Believe me it was not my first choice. but a computer wizard talked me into it and I didnt regret it one bit.
[08:35] (MikeyD) which the other 3 people in my clique getting a macbook pro, iphones, and some shit here and there
[08:35] (hans--) my web hosting company offers 120 gigs of storage. I think I have maybe 10 gigs uploaded. It's crazy.
[08:35] (MikeyD) but since im managing it all, its all coming here
[08:35] (MikeyD) TheTailor: you dont, but i do =)
[08:35] (TheTailor) It is Lenovo
[08:35] (MikeyD) im pretty fucking proud of my video library
[08:35] (DeDannan) all that ghey pr0n :)
[08:36] (TheTailor) MikeyD, do you watch all those videos?
[08:36] (MikeyD) well, if you consider shit like history channel, icons, bsg and the first season of maude porn, sure =)
[08:36] (freetrad3) It is lenova and its still supported by IBM, I dont know what kind of stake IBM has in it. but they still have some involvement. Though they have spun off the latop buisness.
[08:36] (gopp) MikeyD but why your house
[08:36] (MikeyD) most of them
[08:36] (DeDannan) especially maude :)
[08:36] (MikeyD) gopp: cause thats where i alaways am =)
[08:36] (gopp) so you work from home
[08:36] (MikeyD) yeah, how do you think im always here so much =)
[08:37] (Chrono-Z) Maybe MikeyD is the kind of person who can watch a movie several times and enjoy it. My father in law is like that.
[08:37] (gopp) 2.6.15-26-powerpc #1 Fri Sep 8 19:51:33 UTC 2006 ppc GNU/Linux
[08:37] (MikeyD) Chrono-Z: yeah, totally
[08:37] (Chrono-Z) He's seen the same movies dozens of times.
[08:37] (gopp) hehee
[08:37] (gopp) 11:39:44 up 43 days, 13:49, 4 users, load average: 0.79, 0.99, 1.04
[08:37] (MikeyD) plus with so much tv content around, i love that shit
[08:37] (gopp) what your uptime MikeyD
[08:37] (MikeyD) i have all of 24, bsg old and new, ateam, gijoe, voltron, the list just goes on and on
[08:37] (DeDannan) there's a few movies out there that i can watch again and again
[08:37] (hans--) I think the hard drive space is becoming available for when you will be able to download movies from your cable company and watch them anytime you want. Movies seriously eat up storage, and if they are in HD/Blu Ray format, even more so.
[08:38] (MikeyD) about 5 days, i just recently did the 10.4.10 server update
[08:38] (DeDannan) most were made before 1975
[08:38] (freetrad3) Its designed to be able to be dropped for 3 feet on concrete with no hardware damage, and the keyboard you can spill coffee on it, not that I am going to try to and support is superior. I have a huge Toshiba which is a monster like a desktop but I dont use it since i got this haha.
[08:38] (Chrono-Z) I never could do that, if I see something once I get incredible bored watching it again.
[08:38] (MikeyD) i always hold off about 2-4 weeks before doing updates to the server os
[08:38] (gopp) freetrad3 what about wifi is it good
[08:38] (hans--) DeDannan : I have the Marx Brother's "A Night at the Opera" on my PSP :P
[08:38] (gopp) freetrad3 is the ibm software bloatware
[08:38] (freetrad3) Who is this woman on fox anyone watching ?
[08:38] (Veep) got a web link?
[08:38] (MikeyD) yeah, most of my motion pictures in divix or something along those lines runs 700mb-2gb sometimes
[08:39] (Veep) i dont watch tv
[08:39] * CometBaby turns on her media center
[08:39] (Veep) i dont even have a tv
[08:39] (MikeyD) mikeys media center :) *
[08:39] (Veep) hehe
[08:39] (freetrad3) Is it an administration official ? Think Tank, Democrat ?
[08:39] (freetrad3) Gopp, it has superior wifi built in.
[08:39] (TheTailor) gopp, even my old T22 is great with wifi and the IBM software is a great help.
[08:39] (CometBaby) no idea who she is
[08:40] (freetrad3) I like it because when I bougth it it was the lightest notebook on the market with the longest lasting battery
[08:40] (gopp) freetrad3 how that girl
[08:40] (gopp) who
[08:40] (freetrad3) it is an administration press conference.
[08:40] (gopp) who that while girl
[08:40] (gopp) why is thier a fox news alert
[08:40] (gopp) wtf happen
[08:40] (gopp) some blond on foxnews
[08:40] (MikeyD) lets see, motion pictures alone i have
[08:40] (freetrad3) This woman is good..
[08:40] (Chrono-Z) You know you have a point those MikeyD there are alot of new interesting shows I would like to catch more, but the cable company DVR can only record so much.
[08:40] (DeDannan) she is?
[08:41] (MikeyD) 1.38tb for 331 directories
[08:41] (gopp) cable dvr sucks
[08:41] (gopp) MikeyD but you can't dvr HD
[08:41] (MikeyD) but like, diehard 1 2 and 3 counts as 1 directory
[08:41] (gopp) say from hbo or such
[08:41] (Chrono-Z) gopp hah I hate that. EVERYTHING is a fox news alert, they make the word alert meaningless.
[08:41] (freetrad3) She is right we need a national effort to support this nations security. unfortunately there isnt its a partisan political battle, so Democrats can try to expand their power in congress.
[08:41] (gopp) how do people capture HD
[08:41] (e-Hernick) Good news, the first Attack UAV Squadron is arriving in Iraq today with a few MQ-9 Reaper Hunter-Killer drones, which are four times heavier than the old Predator Drones and can carry 14 Hellfire missiles... And stay aloft for 42 hours.
[08:41] (MikeyD) through a superior capture card
[08:41] (DeDannan) Chrono-Z, same goes for "fair and balanced"
[08:41] (gopp) I seen people capture hd
[08:41] (gopp) MikeyDk I never seen a hd card in america
[08:41] (freetrad3) And national security is on the back burner.
[08:42] (MikeyD) http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hd/
[08:42] (e-Hernick) They're going to use the MQ-9 Reapers in attack missions.. And the pilots are going to stay in Nevada.
[08:42] (Veep) is this the press conference live?
[08:42] (MikeyD) i have one of these for sale if you know anyone that wants it
[08:42] (Veep) im trying to see it on the web
[08:42] (gopp) MikeyD I tought hd capture card can't connect to hd cable boxes
[08:42] (MikeyD) its an hd decklink pro
[08:42] (MikeyD) pfft
[08:42] (gopp) maybe freetrad3
[08:42] (freetrad3) Before vietnam this would never have happened in the democratic party. And through the majority of the vietnam war (A democratic war) the whole nation supported the war.
[08:42] (CometBaby) I love using my media center
[08:42] (MikeyD) you should see the connectivity on this card
[08:42] (Veep) http://foxnews-foxstream2.wm.llnwd.net/foxnews_foxstream2
[08:42] (gopp) freetrad3 you want a hd video captuere card
[08:42] (freetrad3) Johnson unfortunatley was very dishonest..
[08:42] (gopp) freetrad3 you want a hd video captuere card
[08:42] (freetrad3) Comet, I do too..
[08:42] (freetrad3) I am interested to see viiv
[08:42] (e-Hernick) Did you know that the Predator drones have flown over 240000 combat hours so far?
[08:43] (gopp) freetrad3 what is she talkinga bout
[08:43] (gopp) about
[08:43] (MikeyD) DeckLink HD Pro.
[08:43] (MikeyD) 4:4:4 PCIe
[08:43] (CometBaby) a friend came over and hooked it up for me. He put a splitter on the Cox signal and put one of them directly into a tuner card on my cpu. So I get all of the internet channels on my media center :)
[08:43] (TheTailor) Texas Mom Uses Barbecue Meat Fork to Catch Alleged Child Rapist
[08:43] (TheTailor) haha
[08:43] (MikeyD) 2 x 10 bit SD/HD
[08:43] (e-Hernick) MikeyD: how many thousands?
[08:43] (freetrad3) Gopp About Afghanistan and the need for a united nation on this war on terrorism.
[08:43] (gopp) MikeyD how much
[08:43] (MikeyD) HD Format Support 1080PsF23.98/24, 1080i48, 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 720p59.94, 720p60, 720p50
[08:44] (MikeyD) retail is 1495
[08:44] (gopp) MikeyD I tought it was illegal to own a true hd capture card in america
[08:44] (MikeyD) =)
[08:44] (MikeyD) who told you that?
[08:44] (e-Hernick) TheTailor: did she stab him in his private parts?
[08:44] (gopp) the fcc
[08:44] (MikeyD) i deck out mac pros for cnn with these nearly every week
[08:44] (TheTailor) e-Hernick, in the ass
[08:44] (gopp) the fcc said
[08:44] (gopp) MikeyD oh but that for bussiness use
[08:44] (freetrad3) I dont care about HDD, I ordered HDD and I wasnt impressed. My eyes arent that good.
[08:44] (e-Hernick) TheTailor: it's a victory for barbecue moms everywhere
[08:44] (MikeyD) hell, even the intensity is a capure via hdmi card
[08:44] (MikeyD) capture and output
[08:44] (TheTailor) Indeed
[08:44] (freetrad3) IM not paying extra for it.
[08:44] (Veep) who is this woman on fox news, i missed the beginign
[08:44] (freetrad3) Though my monitors are hd
[08:44] (gopp) so how come ati says no hd card can connect to cable to boxes to rip hbo
[08:45] (MikeyD) no idea
[08:45] (CometBaby) FreeTrade HDD is awesome .. but you really need a high quality TV to really appreciate it.
[08:45] (freetrad3) I think she is with the state dept.
[08:45] (e-Hernick) MikeyD: what kind of analog inputs does it have?
[08:45] (MikeyD) maybe because ati is canadian =)
[08:45] (freetrad3) Im not sure.
[08:45] (DeDannan) Veep, some mouthpiece from the Ministry of Truth
[08:45] (e-Hernick) gopp: it's because of the analog hole
[08:45] (freetrad3) Ive only been half paying attention.
[08:45] (e-Hernick) gopp: see, his card costs 1500$
[08:45] (hans--) blu ray discs are really stunning.
[08:45] (Veep) ah
[08:45] (freetrad3) Comet, Yeah I have one but I am not impressed.
[08:45] (CometBaby) an LCD tv or Plasma tv .. and HDD is absolutely awesome
[08:45] (freetrad3) And Ive seen them in showrooms and I am not impressed.
[08:45] (Veep) the feed of fox im watching on the web doesnt have the captions at the bottom of screen, its just the video
[08:45] (MikeyD) well, lets see
[08:45] (Chrono-Z) I still just can't bring myself to replace my 27inch crt television, it's only 4 years old and works perfectly.
[08:46] (Veep) no logos, no captions, just video
[08:46] (e-Hernick) gopp: if you want a card that can do HD capture, you've got to have an OTA HD tuner that received digital HD signals, converts them to analog, and use an analog-to-digital card to convert them back into digital... this card costs 1500$..
[08:46] (MikeyD) its been a while since i used analog without an a/d converter
[08:46] (CometBaby) Our family room tv is like 48" and when we watch HDD it blows our socks off
[08:46] (DeDannan) Chrono-Z, I don't watch the tube enough to justify a new one
[08:46] (MikeyD) http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hd/techspecs/
[08:46] (e-Hernick) gopp: and then you need to compress the resulting HD stream, at a quality that will be lower than the original HD stream
[08:46] (freetrad3) I am the type who would never buy a top of the line music player because I cant hear that 5% better which makes it pefect, and it doesnt improve (HD) Movies or TV enough to where it makes it worth the cost for me.
[08:46] (CometBaby) especially movies with a high quality surround sound system
[08:46] (freetrad3) Some day I suspect it will be the standard and not an extra cost.
[08:46] (CometBaby) as good as any theatre
[08:46] (Chrono-Z) We almost did a couple of months ago, but when we went shopping for one there was so much salesmen bullshit and what I suspected to be purposly confusing terms.
[08:47] (e-Hernick) gopp: if the law allowed it, you could rip HD directly and it would be very inexpensive
[08:47] (MikeyD) i dont think the high end has analog out
[08:47] (MikeyD) oh, inputs
[08:47] (MikeyD) oh, i had it reversed
[08:47] (e-Hernick) MikeyD: to input analogue you need a DeckLink HD Extreme
[08:47] (Veep) anyone have comments on Google buying up the MHz of the broadcast TV (not HD) and using it to offer free internet over the air? At& T is trying to block them
[08:47] (e-Hernick) so it's even more than 1500$ isn't it
[08:48] (e-Hernick) Veep: you mean the 700MHz auctions?
[08:48] (Veep) yeah
[08:48] (Veep) i think so
[08:48] (freetrad3) Anyone here about Jet Blue ties to Daily Kos or was that hyped ?
[08:48] (e-Hernick) Veep: those are auctions, and you don't know AT&T's plans
[08:48] (e-Hernick) Veep: and even if Google is buying spectrum, you don't know what they're buying it for
[08:48] (CometBaby) my husband had the speakers built into tops of the walls near the ceiling. Two in front and two in back . one in the middle and a subwoofer. I don't know what comes from where .. but when we are watching tv the sound is coming from everywhere.
[08:48] (Chrono-Z) Like the guys at several stores insisting we had to have a 10801 tv and that a 52in tv would be just fine in my apartment living room, not too big at all then went thru all this strange explinations about veiwing angles and the such, despite the fact the couch sites about 8 feet from the tv.
[08:48] (MikeyD) yeah
[08:48] (Veep) well, im sure at&t plans are to charge consumers for bandwith, not give it away
[08:49] (e-Hernick) MikeyD: so if I want an HD capture card with component analog inputs, so that I can capture my HD cable signal through the analog hole
[08:49] (Veep) google could change the entire price structure of us cell phone and internet plans
[08:49] (e-Hernick) MikeyD: what's it going to cost me, a DeckLink HD Extremeâ„¢
[08:49] (CometBaby) I just told him I was sick and tired of seeing wires in my family room and whatever he did .. I didn't want to see wires anymore. :)
[08:49] (CometBaby) lol
[08:49] (MikeyD) or you can get an a/d converter
[08:49] (Veep) usa cell phone plans are way too expensive
[08:49] (e-Hernick) MikeyD: yeah, that's what I'm looking for
[08:49] (MikeyD) i dunn955 is retail
[08:49] (Chrono-Z) They are auctioning off the 700mz band? I thought those were supposed to be public property...:|
[08:49] (e-Hernick) MikeyD: the DeckLink HD Extremeâ„¢ has an A/D converter built it, with HD analog component inputs
[08:50] (CometBaby) I told him to do it one time .. and do it right the first time. He did :)
[08:50] (freetrad3) I hate to bring it up but some cops on the border who violated the law in a very serious way are getting PC support (Not computer political) for committing a crime. I find this appaling. talk about a police state when we back up our cops violating the law we truly are in danger, however this is one case so I wouldnt cry danger yet.
[08:50] (Veep) well it is public property, thats why they auction it
[08:50] (e-Hernick) ohly 1000$
[08:50] (e-Hernick) that's quite a deal
[08:50] (Veep) they sell most all Mhz bands
[08:50] (MikeyD) i only have an he decklink pro
[08:50] (gopp) they cught ubl
[08:50] (gopp) is UBL caught
[08:50] (e-Hernick) oh, Decklink pro is HDMI only
[08:50] (CometBaby) FreeTrade are these the border patrol agents who were being paid off to let them cross?
[08:50] (gopp) MikeyD I tought it not legal
[08:51] (e-Hernick) no wait..
[08:51] (e-Hernick) their dropdown menu system is broken
[08:51] (Chrono-Z) Veep it was my understanding they they previously licensed out the bands to various company, but not outright sold them to the highest bidder.
[08:51] (freetrad3) Comet, no the ones who shot an unarmed mexican in the back.
[08:51] (freetrad3) while he was running.
[08:51] (freetrad3) away from them
[08:51] (rightoooo) gotta go
[08:51] (CometBaby) yikes
[08:51] (rightoooo) see you all later :)
[08:51] (gopp) like you can't dvr hd hbo
[08:51] (Veep) i can only hypothosise that google has bought tons of unused dark fiber for something, plans on buying 700mhz to offer internet cell phones, will offer them as add supported, adsense or something, will offer it free to consumers
[08:51] (gopp) like you can't dvr hd hbo MikeyD
[08:52] (freetrad3) We can never allow cops to violate the law whether we disagree with the people they are after or not.
[08:52] (Veep) the cell phone industry is going to have a cow over it
[08:52] (itsme) hello
[08:52] (freetrad3) I dont care if its the Mafia, if we allow the cops to become crooked the iimplications for society are scary.
[08:52] (Veep) true, licenced, not sold
[08:53] (e-Hernick) Veep: you're making wild guesses.
[08:53] (e-Hernick) Veep: you have no evidence.
[08:53] (Veep) correct, i said it was my hypothosis, not fact
[08:53] (e-Hernick) Veep: you are guilty of oracular predictions regarding the actions of a major corporation, punishable by serious fines under SEC regulations.
[08:53] (Veep) LOL
[08:54] (freetrad3) What bothered me as much as them shooting him is they didnt process the indicident, they picked up their spent shells which is a major violation in any police force. its a cover up attempt but they got caught.
[08:54] (Veep) knock.....knock..... oh shit, someone is at the door. looks like im going to jail
[08:54] (Chrono-Z) Is the current auction a auction for the licenses or for the actual bands? Granted I don't know very much about how these things work. But I would be kind of upset if they were outright selling public bands.
[08:54] (freetrad3) the defense lawyer for the cops is trying to use the media and politics to sway the jury verdict, a jurty of 12 peers many of whome are american whites who dont approve of illegal immigration.
[08:54] (Veep) i think they are all licenced.
[08:54] (Chrono-Z) Oh well that's fine then.
[08:55] (Veep) yes, we wouldnt want to "sell" air
[08:55] (e-Hernick) Chrono-Z: you know that these bands usually go for many billion dollars, right?
[08:55] (Veep) just licence air
[08:55] (cyberfr0g) i support the detention of any illegal immigrant drug smuggler bringing drugs into my country by any means neccessary including shooting them in the back
[08:55] (freetrad3) Anyway next political issue hmm.
[08:55] (e-Hernick) cyberfr0g: shoot first, ask questions later?
[08:55] (Chrono-Z) e-Hernick aye I do.
[08:56] (Veep) google bought youtube for the same price, whats another billion to them
[08:56] (DeDannan) i like the google
[08:56] (e-Hernick) Chrono-Z: how do you feel about Open Access on part of the new 700MHz bands
[08:57] (e-Hernick) I thin Open Access would be great, so that access providers would be forced to let consumers use their own compatible devices, rather than only allow, old-style bell-style, only to plug your bell-rented corded phones to the network...
[08:57] (Veep) i feel all the bands should be licenced for the small cost of administering the program. what $300 or so?
[08:57] (freetrad3) I use google as my primary search engine.
[08:57] (e-Hernick) Veep: but people are willing to pay billions for them. It's an open auction process... Anybody can bid, but there is high enough desire for that part of the spectrum, that bids reach the millions
[08:57] (e-Hernick) er, billions
[08:58] (Veep) yeah, its nuts.
[08:58] (Chrono-Z) e-Hernick if it's open access I love the idea. I think it's an amazing idea.
[08:58] (Sbrns4GW) i wonder how massive Google's server farm must be
[08:58] (Chrono-Z) Granted I don't know the details of how it all with work.
[08:58] (Yaakov) The bandwidth auctions were put in place to generate revenue. The winning bidder has to build out within a specific time or lose it.
[08:58] (Veep) but if you pay billions, you want your money back, so you gotta charge $60 month cell phone plans.
[08:58] (e-Hernick) Sbrns4GW: quarter-million nodes, last I heard
[08:58] (cyberfr0g) well, it's not a matter of "for the people" it's a matter of "for the highest bidder" ... always has been with that stuff
[08:58] (Sbrns4GW) e-Hernick: they've almost got one node per American
[08:58] (Sbrns4GW) wow
[08:58] (e-Hernick) Sbrns4GW: uhm
[08:59] (e-Hernick) quart-million
[08:59] (cyberfr0g) lol?
[08:59] (freetrad3) Heading to my office brb
[08:59] (Sbrns4GW) oh, wait
[08:59] (e-Hernick) there's over a quart-billion americans
[08:59] (Sbrns4GW) i'm off by about 100X
[08:59] (e-Hernick) no
[08:59] (DeDannan) things go BOOM in Islamabad
[08:59] (e-Hernick) by 1000x
[08:59] (Sbrns4GW) yeah, that too
[08:59] (e-Hernick) DeDannan: again?
[08:59] (itsme) helo
[08:59] (DeDannan) e-Hernick, well..today..
[08:59] (Sbrns4GW) so do you classify the Colorado shooting as an assassination attempt?
[09:00] (Veep) it will be nice, when a particular bandwith is picked and consumer devices are inexpensive to do anything over the internet, then Mhz wont matter, video, phone, radio, all internet
[09:00] (DeDannan) Sbrns4GW, terrorism!
[09:00] (Veep) data is data
[09:00] (cyberfr0g) Sbrns4GW: lunatic with a gun, that's all
[09:01] (e-Hernick) Veep: you understand that what you said doesn't make any sense, and proves your lack of understanding, right?
[09:01] (Yaakov) Veep: There are problems with channel loading. We need things like WiMax to improve that.
[09:01] (Veep) what doesnt make sense?
[09:01] (itsme) who's the lunatic with a gun?
[09:01] (alh) Veep: still need MHz to render the data in useful ways
[09:01] (DeDannan) itsme, a terrorist
[09:01] (e-Hernick) Veep: "particular bandwith is picked" "MHz won't matter"...
[09:01] (freetrad3) Back
[09:01] (Veep) yes, i know you still need a band MHZ
[09:01] (itsme) what terrorist
[09:01] (Yaakov) Veep: The current way that bandwidth is used will not allow pervasive wireless at high speed.
[09:01] (DeDannan) that one
[09:02] * _Forbin Rush is on: http://www.kfi640.com/pages/streaming.html
[09:02] (e-Hernick) Yaakov: Radio technology isn't there yet
[09:02] (Veep) i mean there will be no difference between a cd radio and television if its digital data pushed over the net
[09:02] (Chrono-Z) I'm glad you mentioned the open access thing e-Hernick, it sounds like an amazing thing that in way is almost hard to fully comprehend in context to the existing wireless communications in the US.
[09:02] (e-Hernick) Yaakov: give softradios and UWB a few years to mature
[09:02] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: The encoding and protocols are the issue.
[09:02] (DeDannan) Rush is on what?
[09:02] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: I am involved in SDR research.
[09:02] (Chrono-Z) That being said unfortunatly I doubt it will ever happen.
[09:03] (Veep) how about the internet router satelite thing the us gove will be launching soon. anyone know anything about that?
[09:03] (e-Hernick) Yaakov: softradios are still very expensive..
[09:03] (Yaakov) Ad hoc netowrking with peer-to-peer routing has some promise. Mesh style stuff.
[09:03] (e-Hernick) Yaakov: do you think UWB is the future?
[09:03] (Veep) yeah, a mesh router on every telephone pole would be nice
[09:04] (|mperitus) all this radio UWB technology is crap, switch to the true technology of the future, Smoke signals!
[09:04] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: Not really, you can do SDR cheap--there is just no incentive for the ASIC manufacturers to provide the chipsets yet.
[09:04] (e-Hernick) Chrono-Z: it's not hard to comprehend, it's how the PSTN works today
[09:05] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: I think the network will be hybrid.
[09:05] (Chrono-Z) I don't mean so much in the way of technology, but with how we are end users use devices and the impact on existing wireless companies.
[09:05] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: UWB in some cases, NB in others.
[09:05] (e-Hernick) Yaakov: makes sense
[09:06] (Yaakov) You can buy a Skype "cell phone" today. It uses 802.11, looks just like a cell phone and is dedicated to Skype's network.
[09:06] (Veep) for a test once, i took my nokia cell phone with real player, launched a radio station stream and used a headphone out jack to my car stereo to play internet radio. I had Tmobile at the time, and this was 3 years ago. its not tooo far off
[09:06] (Yaakov) Skype is making deals with hot spot providers for open Skype access.
[09:06] (e-Hernick) Yaakov: so, you're saying that "cheap SDR" could be done, but since nobody makes the right chips today.. there's no such thing as "cheap SDR" today
[09:06] (Veep) i could drive around and kept the connection
[09:07] (Veep) i think it was using GPRS
[09:07] (Yaakov) So... depending on where you live, you can buy a $150 phone and use Skype instead of a cell phone.
[09:07] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: No, it is cheap today, but not SMALL. Ham radio operators are using it, for example.
[09:08] (Veep) but, bad thing is with 802 phone, you need to be near a router
[09:08] (e-Hernick) sure, but those SDRs are much more expensive than say, a cheap hardware radio
[09:08] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: Just a second...
[09:08] (Veep) and skype-in phone number are not as cheap as they should be
[09:08] (e-Hernick) more flexible than the hardware radio, sure.. and cheaper than buying a dozen hardware radios..
[09:09] (e-Hernick) and of course, there's no such thing as a universal antenna
[09:10] (itsme) this is boring
[09:11] (p-oed) BAGHDAD (AFP) - Gunmen dressed in Iraqi military uniforms stormed a village in the restive Iraqi province of Diyala northeast of Baghdad overnight and murdered 29 people, security officials said Tuesday.
[09:11] (DeDannan) and so it goes
[09:12] (itsme) is diyala habited by sunni or shi'a
[09:12] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: This is one of our research radios: kovaya.com / sdt.jpg
[09:12] (e-Hernick) Yaakov: looks like that could be produced for cheap
[09:12] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: We use transverters to select bands.
[09:13] (DeDannan) mostly shi'a were killed I believe
[09:13] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: Yes, thats the idea. Still to current hungry, but it is a good platform for testing.
[09:13] (itsme) dedannan i dont think so
[09:13] (itsme) shia are killed by suicide bombers
[09:13] (itsme) not that way
[09:13] (Yaakov) too, that is.
[09:14] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: Ultimately that prototype will be turned into a handheld.
[09:14] (td) so were they just dressed as iraqi military.. or were they
[09:14] (DeDannan) itsme, these were shi'a
[09:14] (e-Hernick) Yaakov: 20-60MHz?
[09:15] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: Transverters are used to provide access to any band.
[09:15] (itsme) dedannan this is not the first such a think happen
[09:15] (itsme) time*
[09:15] (e-Hernick) Yaakov: ah.. and does this scale to higher powers?
[09:15] (itsme) thing*
[09:15] (itsme) lol
[09:15] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: That is the bandwidth of the transciever itself. So with any transverter you've got 40MHz of tuning.
[09:16] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: Sure, just put a PA on it.
[09:16] (Nockian) oh no! the government says that the TERRORISTS are planning another attack on US SOIL! government save me!
[09:16] (e-Hernick) Yaakov: so.. you need an SDT board, a transverter board, an A/D-D/A, and a computer?
[09:16] (e-Hernick) I suppose you could pack that in a single handheld
[09:16] (td) Nockian: and it also says it will be coming from Iraq
[09:16] (e-Hernick) or is the digital logic already on the SDT board?
[09:17] (Nockian) td: oh noes!
[09:17] (td) Nockian: so we better stay in Iraq and WIN!
[09:17] (itsme) td this is impossible
[09:17] (Nockian) omg please tax me more to fight the EVIL terrorists
[09:17] (itsme) you can't fight ghosts
[09:17] (Nockian) only government can save me!
[09:18] (td) Bush is planning the ultra-surge
[09:18] (td) maybe
[09:18] (itsme) td lol ultra surge?!!
[09:18] (td) there has been talk of a second surge
[09:18] (e-Hernick) td: the shinseki surge
[09:19] (freetrad3) TD I can only hope
[09:19] * YourRiver http://www.gazde.ro/incredibil/youtube_video.html - Funny Dogs! hahahaha!!!!!
[09:19] (DeDannan) ultra-surge? sounds like a laundry detergent
[09:19] (freetrad3) I can only pray.. if I prayed.
[09:19] (e-Hernick) I completely support a shinseki surge
[09:19] (itsme) lol dedannan
[09:19] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: We have a Linux front end to run it, which is currently a micro ATX core duo for convenience. The SDT board handles VFO and all the digitzing.
[09:19] (DeDannan) e-Hernick, kinda late for that...
[09:19] (td) only problem is unless they have troops they can shift over from some other theatre I dont know where they are going to get them
[09:20] (e-Hernick) Yaakov: ah, so the SDT board sends a digital signal?
[09:20] (e-Hernick) what kind of digital interface are you using to carry that much bandwidth?
[09:20] (td) other than increasing deployments and decreasing time between deployments
[09:20] (td) increasing time of deployments I mean
[09:20] (DeDannan) already up to 15 months
[09:21] (DeDannan) with less than 11 months stateside
[09:21] (td) well they signed up to be full time soldiers did they not
[09:21] (DeDannan) and less than that depending on the unit
[09:22] (e-Hernick) td: the draft
[09:22] (DeDannan) national guard units didn't, no
[09:22] (e-Hernick) also, america could start pulling troops from europe or asia
[09:22] * davtek plops
[09:22] (davtek) whew
[09:22] (davtek) time to smoke lunch
[09:22] (davtek) errr
[09:22] (davtek) eat
[09:22] (davtek) i ment eat
[09:22] (Chrono-Z) I've always had a lot of pity for those poor national guard units.
[09:22] (davtek) whew
[09:22] (td) pot luck?
[09:22] (Chrono-Z) Talk about feeling shafted.
[09:23] (DeDannan) friend of mine's leaving sometime in Sept..for his 3rd tour
[09:23] (despy_) poor natl guard units? they know what they signed up for.
[09:23] (DeDannan) with less than 2 years to retirement
[09:23] (Yaakov) The SDT deals with the IQ signal. It has an analog section for AF.
[09:24] (despy_) oh you mean we actually have to do real soldier stuff? i just wanted the GI bill!
[09:24] (td) why do they even need time off
[09:25] (td) pretty cushy job, work for 12 months, get 12 months off in your base back home
[09:25] (despy_) time not being deployed isn't "off" time by the way.. they work full time
[09:25] (Veep) i almost joined the national gaurd then as i looked into it, i said fuck no
[09:25] (Chrono-Z) despy_ I think most of them signed up to do things like national defense and natural diasters. Not being shipped off to iraq for years first and foremost.
[09:25] (Kalo) aren't national guards supposed to stay HERE.....and guard the nation? doesn't being part of an offensive go against it's explicit purpose?
[09:26] (freetrad3) Yeah, I have no sympathy for these guys they signed up and they took the taxpayer benefits, I do honor them, and I dont need have sympathy for most of them because they dont want it, since the majority of career military want to finish the job.
[09:26] (Chrono-Z) Hence the reason I feel pity for them.
[09:26] (Veep) yeah, i dont mind gaurding our nation, but thats it
[09:26] (despy_) Chrono-Z: if they are complaining about being deployed, they signed up expecting to never be needed, just a fun little once a weekend thing with lotsa free schooling
[09:26] (despy_) and let me qualify my opinion, i served in the army active duty and reserve
[09:26] (freetrad3) Where you find the people who dont want to finish it is in the one termers or the people who never really thought they would see much action but would collect a fat check when they retired.
[09:26] (freetrad3) At least literally the tax payers are getting thier moneys worth.
[09:27] (Chrono-Z) No need to qualify you opinion, and thank you for your sevice, but it doesn't entail more gravity.
[09:27] (Veep) duno if americans eing paid to die is "getting your moneys worth"
[09:27] (Veep) what good is money if your dead
[09:27] (despy_) Veep: everyone who signs up know the risk is there
[09:28] (KoBushi) Veep depends on the rate of inheritance tax
[09:28] (despy_) military service is volunteer in the USA
[09:28] (despy_) noone forced a single natl guard soldier to sign up
[09:28] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: The SDT deals with the IQ signal but it has an analog section for AF.
[09:28] (KoBushi) Seems we have as many mercinaries there as we do soldiers
[09:28] (Kalo) but isn't the national guard supposed to stay HERE?
[09:28] (Yaakov) e-Hernick: Sorry, things happening here.
[09:29] (despy_) Kalo: in times of peace, yes
[09:29] (Chrono-Z) You are right no one forced them to sign up. No one is saying they did. Some of use just question the role of what the national guard is supposed to be as opposed to what they are currently doing.
[09:29] (despy_) would you prefer a draft and forced military service?
[09:29] (Kalo) despy: they wouldn't go in a time of peace
[09:29] (davtek) wtf?....the senate is gonna have a 'slumber party'?
[09:29] (despy_) Kalo: reserves are often deployed in times of peace to relieve active duty soldiers
[09:30] (KoBushi) Kalo there are still nat Guard troops IN the US... it isn't as if all of them have been shipped out
[09:30] (despy_) natl guard isnt
[09:30] (Veep) yes volunteer. How many people do you think will vonunteer in the future if people fet more than they bargined for and shipped to terrible places
[09:30] (despy_) but in times of war, natl guard can be deployed as needed overseas
[09:30] (despy_) we still have active duty personnel in the USA now too. a lot of them.
[09:30] (Veep) then we will need a draft.
[09:30] (despy_) Veep: you would rather have a draft than have the natl guard deployed overseas? are you kidding?
[09:31] (Veep) our defence is mostly made up of baby boomers, they are getting old, and soon retire. what then? not many people joining.
[09:31] (Veep) despy, never said that
[09:31] (DeDannan) guard units were deployed in VietNam as well...while we had a draft
[09:31] (Kalo) can't believe we had a draft for viet nam
[09:31] (despy_) Veep: show me where you get that data from.
[09:31] (DeDannan) Kalo, yep
[09:32] (Veep) various sources, your welcome to google it
[09:32] (KoBushi) Veep how could it be "more than barganed" when they knew it was a possibility up front ?
[09:32] (despy_) no, you said it. prove it.
[09:32] (despy_) cause that is BS
[09:32] (Kalo) a draft seems like it should be reserved for emergencies....wars that were declared on us...not us on others
[09:32] (Veep) not saying anyone lied to people, just saying the military is not what it used to be
[09:32] (rwx) Actually a lot of people are joining.
[09:32] (Chrono-Z) KoBushi hence the reason the best advice I ever got was to never trust a recruiter regardlessof anything in writing.
[09:32] (despy_) rwx indeed
[09:32] (rwx) my other mirc froze for a second
[09:32] (Kalo) the people should be able to support or not support a war by not joining
[09:33] (Sbrns4GW) I wouldn't mind some sort of obligatory service for young adult americans
[09:33] (freetrad3) Recruiters are meeting and often exceeding quotas.
[09:33] (KoBushi) Sbrns4GW I would
[09:33] (DeDannan) the youngest baby boomer is around 43 now...I'd say the average GI is in his mid 20s
[09:33] (Veep) but those quotas are now based on smaller military, to the numbers are skewed
[09:33] (Sbrns4GW) Veep: aren't the quotas based on enlarging the militaryt?
[09:33] (freetrad3) If I was going to join the military now is a great time, the pay is much better, there are sign up bonuses which are pretty high. College education while in the service or out.
[09:34] (Sbrns4GW) Veep: i thought congress had ordered them to increase it by several tens of thousands of troops
[09:34] (DeDannan) actually Army recruiting has been down for the last 3 months or so...
[09:34] (Kalo) military just had the post graduation surge
[09:34] (freetrad3) Sbrns, Yes we are currently enlarging our military.
[09:34] (fone`) just be prepared to spend 8% of your life in iraq free
[09:34] (fone`) heh
[09:34] (Veep) you dont need food service, laundry or others in the military if its provided by private contracters such as haliburton
[09:34] (KoBushi) I have a friend who went back into the Army after being out for I think ~8years .. was in the rangers...
[09:34] (freetrad3) fone, I said if I was young
[09:34] (KoBushi) Why he went into the Army instead of Blackwater I have no idea
[09:34] (fone`) i know.. and thats what you would face
[09:34] (fone`) ;)
[09:34] (despy_) Veep: privitazation fo supplies is horrifying
[09:35] (Veep) yep.
[09:35] (Kalo) if you're gonna join and don't want "action"...join the navy
[09:35] (DeDannan) KoBushi, dunno..he'd have made about 5x what the Army will pay him
[09:35] (despy_) lol kalo
[09:35] (KoBushi) DeDannan indeed
[09:35] (Sbrns4GW) Kalo: air force doesn't see much action either generally
[09:35] (Kalo) not too many Iraqi aircraft carriers and subs roaming the persian gulf
[09:35] (KoBushi) DeDannan but I think he just doesn't want to have responsibility for his life anymore, he just wants to take orders and do what he's told
[09:35] (despy_) if you are in the military for the money, you're wrong
[09:36] (fone`) heh.. thats exactly why i hated the army kobu
[09:36] (freetrad3) Im not a soilder type, but i admire soilders.. People are made up of all types of individuals some are born to be warriors some to plant fields, others to build buildings and manage other buisness, others to weld or be mechanics or financial advisors etc. I believe that. In nature the distribution of workers in a colony is usually balanced, even in a bee hive.
[09:36] (Veep) the entire water for troops thing by the contractors in iraq was sooo gross, all the troops were bathing, drinking, etc. in unpurified water. you could actually see the bugs in the water
[09:36] (despy_) freetrad3: absolutely.
[09:36] (KoBushi) fone` yeah i wouldn't like that either... but this guy has tottaly been stuck in military mindset, he's never functioned right in civilian life
[09:36] (freetrad3) And a lot of kids are patriots.. They are willing to risk thier lives for this country.
[09:36] (Veep) that should have been dont by the military, not private companies
[09:36] (freetrad3) and for causes higher than themselves..
[09:37] (freetrad3) I admire them as much or more than any professional or any academic or politician.
[09:37] (freetrad3) Any man who would lay down his life for others is a hero in my book.
[09:37] (Kalo) man it is crazy dark with storms here
[09:37] (freetrad3) Its cloudy here but if its like yesterday it will burn off and be very hot in the afternoon.
[09:38] (despy_) its so humid here you need a scuba tank to breathe ;/
[09:38] (Veep) anyman who would lay down his life so a company could pump oil is un-educated
[09:38] (DeDannan) we're desperate for rain here
[09:38] (freetrad3) hehe, Not humid here.
[09:38] (freetrad3) We could use rain here but I have a building uncovered ;)
[09:38] (KoBushi) despy_ hah
[09:38] (Veep) i dont blame the man, though, i blame the country
[09:39] (freetrad3) Well its partially covered, it wouldnt a disastor but it wouldnt be great either.
[09:39] (DeDannan) its been nearly 10 years since it was this dry for this long
[09:40] * Piposh is now known as Pip`away
[09:40] (freetrad3) And parts of Texas are getting a hell of a lot of Rain.
[09:40] (fone`) we went from one of the dryest years on record to one of the wettest this year
[09:40] (Kalo) if you see a radar of the nation...there is a huge ugly cell right in the middle over illinois/indiana.....that's what hitting us
[09:40] (freetrad3) We could be moving back into the pattern of the early 80s..
[09:40] (DeDannan) Eeyore has long ears and a pinned on tail
[09:40] (hans--) you're in western kentucky right DeDannan?
[09:40] (DeDannan) yessir
[09:41] (Kalo) dedannan: you may be getting it later today
[09:41] (freetrad3) We had 9 years of drought before 1984 and then the gates of hell opened, and this last year was the least rain I can remember in a long time.
[09:41] (hans--) yah it's dry there, but wow, northern Alabama is really bad off according to this data: http://drought.unl.edu/dm/monitor.html
[09:42] (Eeyore) DeDannan not today
[09:42] (DeDannan) yep..south central tennessee and north alabama really have it bad
[09:42] (Eeyore) today I have along tail and pinned on earts
[09:42] (DeDannan) imposter!
[09:43] (Kalo) http://www.weather.com/weather/map/USIN0660?from=search&mapdest=/maps/local/local/us_close_ind_ultra_ind/1a/index_large.html
[09:44] (KoBushi) yeah having a bit of a drought in the southeast
[09:44] (KoBushi) NC has a "water emergency" state declared
[09:44] (KoBushi) supposed to not water your lawn and etc
[09:44] (DeDannan) i refuse to water my lawn
[09:44] (KoBushi) I hope it doesn't run lower than my well
[09:45] (fone`) gotta save that water for irrigation which is where a buttload of our water goes!
[09:45] (fone`) hehe
[09:45] (KoBushi) DeDannan my neighbors are lucky if I mow mine :o
[09:45] (DeDannan) I'll water the plant beds, flowers, garden, etc...
[09:45] (DeDannan) but the grass will just have to wait till it rains
[09:47] (Chrono-Z) I remember when we had a drought here in SC several years ago and had no lawn watering rule, our not so pleasant neighbors got around it using seeping hoses.
[09:47] (Chrono-Z) Eventually they got busted and fined pretty heavy though. I think the lush green lawn when everyone elses was yellow gave it away.
[09:48] (freetrad3) fone, well weather often repeats patterns which are old and then people think the sky is falling ;) Much of the global warming debate for example is full of absurd predictions such as Greenlands Ice Caps will melt and raise seal level.
[09:48] (DeDannan) hehe
[09:48] (Chrono-Z) I suppose they didn't consider that obvious fact.
[09:48] (DeDannan) Chrono-Z, i was wonder if that might have been the giveaway :)
[09:48] (KoBushi) I wish my lawn would die... along with the fire ants in it
[09:49] (freetrad3) Well when the planet was 9 degrees hotter it didnt melt. Why would it melt now when they arent even predicting that kind of temperature rise in the computer modeling ? Simple, Weather patterns repeat not only over decades but by centuries and by 100s of 1000s of years. like the last interglacial period.
[09:49] (KoBushi) all I have is crab grass anyway :P
[09:49] (Chrono-Z) Hah yeah I mean you would think if they were witty enough to use seep hoses they would realize the grass would outshine everyone elses.
[09:49] (Chrono-Z) KoBushi you could go with a pebble lawn like some people are doing.
[09:49] (Chrono-Z) They look pretty cool.
[09:49] (Chrono-Z) Providing you don't use your lawn much I suppose come to think of it.
[09:49] (KoBushi) yeah I need a gigantic zen garden instead of a lawn
[09:50] (freetrad3) But man is a fearful animal. And has always predicted doom. Nostradamus, Revelations. Ancient mythology
[09:50] (KoBushi) :P
[09:50] (freetrad3) I wouldnt care if their paranoia didnt affect me economically or the welfare of my family.
[09:50] (Eeyore) tats cause man will always buy a newspaper with doom as the headline
[09:50] (Eeyore) and fall for it over and over agian
[09:51] (freetrad3) If people choose to live in irrational fear that is their right. Though I think its a sort of (Is there such thing as a natural mental illness? ) Hehe...
[09:51] (Eeyore) no one ever buys a paper that says, "Things are amazing! have a beer and relax!"
[09:51] (freetrad3) The thing is that such doom scenarios repeat through history over and over again.
[09:51] (Chrono-Z) I was thinking of that last night actually freetrad3 and it's a good point. Seems like atleast every decade there is a group of people who are engulfed with some sort of apoclypse scenario and it's those same people that fashion themselves to become a hero in some small part and save the world.
[09:52] (Chrono-Z) Almost like it's some sort of compulsion or sickness that sprouts up in a large enough ammount of people every so often.
[09:52] (freetrad3) And its always a certain population typically a minority who buy into these apocalyptic views. But its always there.
[09:52] (itsme) edhak shwaya wel ab shwaya
[09:52] (Eeyore) Chrono-Z not every decade there are at any given moment several groups who are apocalyptic. and I forget who said it, but it was rfecently applied to Al Gore, "Those who seem to want to save the world, really just want to rule it"
[09:53] (freetrad3) Chrono, My entire life has been full of trendy predictions of gloom circulating in the larger society believed by some, skeptical by others like myself.
[09:53] (itsme) lol
[09:53] (DeDannan) "Tears for Fears"?
[09:53] (Chrono-Z) Yeah this is true. It just seems they swell up to a certain critical mass so to speak of people to where they actually get wide spread attention.
[09:53] (DeDannan) ~~~everybody wants to rule the world~~~~
[09:54] (freetrad3) A skeptic wont ignore real evidence or real science but he will challenge the people making claims to support thier claims with good science or good evidence.
[09:54] (Eeyore) Chrono-Z the reason I think ism that it absolves the person from taking any risks or in fact doing anything at all. those who are truly afriad to live generally excuse thier lack of action by 'Im waiting for the messiah' or, 'the world is ending cause of killer bees Y2K global warming etc etc ad nasuem
[09:54] (Eeyore) Chrono-Z yeah thats true
[09:55] (freetrad3) SO far if these predictions had come true.. BY now, I would have witnessed Nuclear winter, Global Ice Age, Oil ran out in the 1980s. We would have had 4/5ths the world population wiped out and I would be living an agrarian existance again if I had survived.
[09:55] (Chrono-Z) There was also the whole acid rain thing and super volcanos.
[09:55] (freetrad3) all Trendy and true predictions taken seriously by people in the worlds legislative bodies.
[09:55] * _OldSchoo is now known as OldSchool
[09:56] (freetrad3) God, there are counltess conspiracy theories.
[09:56] (Eeyore) Chrono-Z killer bees dont forget them killer bees
[09:56] (freetrad3) As well as natural disastor predictions.
[09:56] (Eeyore) althgogh Y2K is my personal fave. several developed nations did exacly nothing for it and had no problems as a result
[09:56] (Eeyore) I know im forgetting some as well...
[09:56] (CometBaby) the problem, is that when the predictions fail .. you don't hear the media reporting the folly. Remember last year? We were going to have devastating hurricanes? The media reported the predictions .. but not the failures.
[09:56] (freetrad3) Silent Spring which fueled a whole mass movement of environmentalists has been concluded to be a fraud based on scientific review as even reported in the New York Times.
[09:57] (Eeyore) CometBaby and yes thats infuriating.
[09:57] (Eeyore) ok bbiab
[09:57] (CometBaby) The predictions were spouted as being caused by global warming .. the failure .. never mentioned (no hurricanes= no global warming?)
[09:57] (Chrono-Z) I gotta tell you, I've lived in south carolina all my life, and hurricanes really weren't anything but more or less routine up until a few years ago.
[09:58] (freetrad3) DDT was never the threat it was claimed to be. I would have always of course urged caution when using any pesticide, but people took baths in it and breathed it with no ill effects, It should be brought back for Malaria epidemics and serious conditions.
[09:58] (freetrad3) It should like any substancebe used sparingly as needed not liberally..common sense dictates that.
[09:58] (Chrono-Z) I've also confirmed this with plenty of folks older than I since I'm not old enough to be a fair authority.
[09:58] (CometBaby) Chrono-Z we have had bad hurricanes making direct hits off and on throughout our history.
[09:59] (CometBaby) they were never blamed on global warming, until it became necessary to blame EVERYTHING on global warming.
[09:59] (freetrad3) Chrono, And with the way Hurricanes work since they come and go in patterns usually, you may not see anything major for a decade or two and then suddenly several major storms.. This is the past not the future, this is the past repeating itself, not global warming creating a new future.
[09:59] (freetrad3) Comet, they were blames on other things.
[09:59] (Chrono-Z) Indeed, I personally remember hurrican hugo and hurrican andrew, and no one really gave a crap about them in comparison to these days when a topical storm pops up and the news stations practically have an orgasm.
[10:00] (freetrad3) Gods vengeance, Mans sin.. Or something else..
[10:00] (freetrad3) people have a extreme hot spell they think its caused by something new but if you go back in history you find that your community has been through similar hot spells for as long as they have records which usually isnt long enough..
[10:00] (MikeyD) wtf
[10:01] (freetrad3) Thats human nature.
[10:01] (allan5oh) wow, there's almost a million more females in canada
[10:01] (Chrono-Z) I remember my mother in law calling and absolutly freaking out when one came close a couple of years ago. She was seriously paniced we were going to die. Because she got so worked up from the news reports.
[10:01] (gopp) freetrad3 did you see this
[10:01] * allan5oh scared
[10:01] (MikeyD) http://www3.capwiz.com/c-span/issues/votes/?votenum=247&chamber=S&congress=1101
[10:01] (gopp) freetrad3 do you know about this Fretless
[10:01] (gopp) freetrad3 ever heard of this
[10:01] (Chrono-Z) It totally baffled her when I was like meh it's only a cat two and we are a couple hundred miles away.
[10:01] (MikeyD) By 87 yeas to 1 nay (Vote No. 247), the Dorgan/Conrad Amendment No. 2135 (to Amendment No. 2011), relative to bringing Osama bin Laden and other leaders of al-Qaeda to justice, was agreed to as amended.
[10:01] (gopp) freetrad3 IRC (Internet Relay Chat) programs called dosbots connect to IRC networks and sit in channels waiting for someone to give them the command to attack a host. This is a popular method of invading a system because of, naturally, its ease of use. Compromised Windows machines connected to IRC channels can be used to perform DDoS attacks against specified targets.
[10:02] (freetrad3) Really its the most natural thing to come to a simple mind. The sky is falling. THis is why I believe and this I am sure is quite controversial. But exactly why man needed to invent gods.. I call god the X factor.
[10:02] (MikeyD) Ha
[10:02] (MikeyD) mccain and obama seems to have been busy with other things when the vote was called for this
[10:02] (freetrad3) Because any equation of y+Y= an unknown the x always fills in the unknown or always can.
[10:02] (Chrono-Z) It may be fair to mention that she lives in michigan though.
[10:02] (MikeyD) http://www3.capwiz.com/c-span/issues/votes/?votenum=247&chamber=S&congress=1101&tally=1
[10:02] (Veep) Now this is a presidential debate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekSxxlj6rGE
[10:02] (freetrad3) its a catchall for every thing we dont understand
[10:02] (freetrad3) Its gods will.
[10:02] (freetrad3) Its gods punishment
[10:02] (freetrad3) its gods reward
[10:03] (Kalo) God has revealed himself and is not hidden
[10:03] (RangerDog) free, I think is old-fashioned thinking. More modern is to place everything in relation to "the liberals."
[10:03] (Chrono-Z) gopp oh yeah that stuff has been around for years, and has been a scourge.
[10:03] (freetrad3) Problem is when god blesses you by finding your missing child he cruely allows a 1000 to be raped and murdered.
[10:03] (TheTailor) utoh
[10:03] (TheTailor) It's HIM
[10:03] (freetrad3) Now IM joking i dont blame god for mans evil. I like what homer said.
[10:03] (freetrad3) Lo, how men blame the gods! From us, they say, spring troubles. But through their own perversity, and more then is their due, they meet their sorrow •Homer•
[10:03] (freetrad3) But anyway. It works.
[10:04] (hans--) Sure there are normal flucutations in weather-- no one questions that, but to attribute , then why has the US breaks heat records almost every year for the last 15? And each year the record number of record heat days increases, not decrease. That's not a flux, that's a trend.
[10:04] (freetrad3) Ranger, What is old fashioned thinking ?
[10:04] (Chrono-Z) freetrad3 it also brings up a conflicting thing with christians concerning predestination vs freewill.
[10:04] (freetrad3) Ranger, I consider myself a true liberal.
[10:04] (TheTailor) hans--, we haven't broken heat records for the last 15 years
[10:04] (Chrono-Z) atleast those who consider that sort of thing of course.
[10:04] (RangerDog) The everything in relation to God comment, free.
[10:04] (freetrad3) much like my friend SonofSpam.
[10:04] (RangerDog) hans, but is 15 years really much in the history of the world?
[10:04] (hans--) got any proof of that TheTailor?
[10:05] (hans--) I sure do.
[10:05] (hans--) :D
[10:05] (TheTailor) hans--, sure, I live in Central Texas, I know what heat is, and we haven't had records.
[10:05] (TomM--) he does..he sits outside with his finger in the air...
[10:05] (hans--) Rangerdog, that's a different question.
[10:05] (hans--) That's nice TheTailor, but central texas isn't the entire United States.
[10:05] (TheTailor) hans--, it was your claim btw, you provide the showing.
[10:05] (TheTailor) hans--, well it is a hotter part of the states though, isn't it
[10:06] (allan5oh) the existance of humans is but a mere few seconds on the "world clock"
[10:06] (freetrad3) Kalo,I would never deem to try to talk you out of believing in your god. but this is not a theological channel, I am relating why I think man invents things that are fearful and makes predictions based on weak evidence or science to fit into his belief system
[10:06] (hans--) still isn't the entire US, it's a bigger country than your experiences based in central Texas.
[10:06] (hans--) that's hardly scientific.
[10:06] (hans--) :D
[10:06] (TheTailor) hans--, where is your showing we have been in record heat for the past 15 years?
[10:06] (Kalo) freetrade: yes, you were stating what you believe as was I
[10:06] (RangerDog) Deep in the Heart of Texas!
[10:06] (TheTailor) RangerDog, yep
[10:07] (TheTailor) Deep in the heart of
[10:07] (TomM--) all i know is I am a member of the only true church...so if you want to know anything ask me.. :)
[10:07] (freetrad3) Now well someday we may kill ourselves. Thats always a chance we take. Especially as we gain technological power and more invention. Its the double edged sword of technology and science.. But I think people should enjoy their lives and not worry about the inevitable until it happens. which could be in 5 years or 50k years
[10:07] (TheTailor) TomM-- is a member of the Church of Bar
[10:07] (Veep) Slideshow on us dumping chemical weapons in the ocean. If we do this, who knows what other countries do. http://www.dailypress.com/news/local/dp-chemweapons-gal,0,2091512.photogallery?index=1
[10:08] (TomM--) TheTailor oh no...my Pope said that just the other day...so there...
[10:08] (TheTailor) TomM--, that's not what he said :-)
[10:08] (freetrad3) IN fact there is a rational probability of a precentage i know not that we will destroy ourselves and if I see a way to help stop it, indeed i would.
[10:08] (freetrad3) But I see nothing right now which doesnt appear to be natural. Or within reasonable measures of past experience.
[10:08] (TomM--) u people that have been praying this and that have just wasted your time....convert.....
[10:09] * TheTailor puts a lock on TomM--'s barstool seatbelt so he can't go to the john.
[10:09] (RangerDog) I'm so tired of the Dems vs Repubs bickering. It never stops.
[10:09] (freetrad3) THat probability could be 5% in 100 years or .0000005% I dont know.
[10:09] (Chrono-Z) Well yeah of course will we destroy ourselve in someway. It's extremely arrogant to assume we want.
[10:09] (freetrad3) who can know ?
[10:09] (Chrono-Z) want=won't.
[10:09] (RangerDog) I can't turn on the radio without hearing someone blaming the miseries of the world on the liberals.
[10:10] (freetrad3) Rander, Well I say the leftists ;) But I agree thats exagerated.
[10:10] (TomM--) TheTailor...oh? what did he say? I was praying at the time and may have missed a nuance...didnt he say other churches were kinda off kilter?
[10:10] (TheTailor) TomM--, I didn't read it, Comet reported that it was being twisted.
[10:10] (TheTailor) TomM--, I think Janet did too
[10:10] (RangerDog) We get Rush Limbaugh over lunch here and he will tell about something that is all over the press and claim only he talks about it.
[10:11] (TheTailor) Flush Rush
[10:11] (RangerDog) Anyone who follows news at all knows the Dow is about to close above 14000. It's constant. Yet, Rush says it's not discussed in the liberal media.
[10:11] (TheTailor) wiberal
[10:11] (|mperitus) isn't that typical of anyone who has their own show? "We told you first!" "Only here on this show!" etc...
[10:12] (TomM--) TheTailor I dont think so....Im Catholic and I got as we are the only true church....which prompted a cookout in the Manning back yard....with lots of beer and groping and stuff...us Catholics like that stuff...
[10:12] (RangerDog) yeah, imper, but rush takes it way beyond the norm.
[10:12] (freetrad3) Damn I better set up my other computer this one is lagging.
[10:12] (Kalo) Rush lost it when Clinton left office
[10:13] (TomM--) Id like to have about five minutes alone with that fat bastard...
[10:13] (freetrad3) Ranger, I find it reprehensible the behavior of the right on the recent immigrationd debate, I have made no secret about that,. And yet when I get down and talk to most rightwingers on this channel about details we almost always agree to a compromise on the issue.
[10:13] (freetrad3) But talk Radios involvement was shamefully emberressing
[10:13] (e-Hernick) I don't know how well liberal shows would fare under a Hillary-Democrat-Congress rule
[10:13] (freetrad3) And so were some of the pundits.
[10:14] * Disconnected
Session Close: Tue Jul 17 10:14:12 2007

Session Start: Tue Jul 17 10:14:23 2007
Session Ident: #politics
[10:14] * Now talking in #politics
[10:14] * Topic is 'North Korea Shuts down Nuclear Reactors. The Left re-spins it as typical.'
[10:14] * Set by freetrad3!free@wont.believ.eu on Mon Jul 16 15:16:30
[10:14] -moderatum- Greetings ^DannyAko, #politics is currently moderated. If you wait 30 seconds without changing your nickname you can take part in the discussion (mode +v).
[10:14] -moderatum- Welcome! NOTE: As of late some rascals have spammed this channel in an attempt to get us in trouble! Our apologies if you're here because of that -- #politics has nothing to do with it! Thank you for your understanding, and sorry again :-(
[10:14] (freetrad3) But I will have you know a lot of rightwing pundits supported immigration reform. Not the least of which being Bill Kristol who is the oracle of politics (I call him that for his unbelievable predictions this last few years which have been dead on) for the so called Neo Cons.
[10:14] (TomM--) RangerDog are you serious?
[10:14] (freetrad3) And Fred Barnes a long time evangelical political analyst.
[10:14] (^DannyAko) maddox is right! http://duggmirror.com/apple/The_iPhone_is_a_piece_of_shit_and_so_is_your_face/?u=iphone
[10:15] (TomM--) freetrad3 also one of the designers of the Iraq war...lets not forget to give him his due...
[10:15] (RangerDog) I think there has to be a huge huge market for a logical political radio host. He could even be right wing or left wing. If he'd just be logical.
[10:15] (freetrad3) Even Charles Krauthammer who is not so hot on immigration but he said he would accept a compromise if he was sure of enforcement, but the irony is that enforcement which they have been skeptical of has already proven itself to be much much better than it was and they have barely started the program for border enforcement.
[10:15] (CometBaby) orders to trash bush on tv?
[10:15] (CometBaby) “We need every Senator’s help throughout the next two days to amplify our message and highlight Republican obstructionism,” says the memo from the Senate Democratic Communications Center, part of the office of Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (Nev.). “This is a caucus-wide effort and your help is needed.”
[10:16] (freetrad3) So Bush was right, it is working..
[10:16] (TomM--) why do we worry about media hosts?
[10:16] (freetrad3) Enforcement. Its not a skepitcla illusion its a de facto success so far and not even finished (Building the fence, employing the technology, etc.)
[10:16] (RangerDog) why do we worry about anything, Tom?
[10:16] (sullys) look at Anbar in 06 and look at it now
[10:16] (freetrad3) Comet dont worry Reid is less popular than Bush ;)
[10:16] (freetrad3) haha
[10:16] (TomM--) Comet...no reason to trash Bush anymore...its like picking on a hurt puppy...its beyond the pale
[10:16] (sullys) in 06, everyone wrote off anbar as 'lost
[10:17] (sullys) now its a 'model' an 'example of hope'
[10:17] (RangerDog) Reid should be in prison, if you ask me.
[10:17] (TomM--) sullys whats won? what is lost or won in that mess? You explain to me?
[10:17] (freetrad3) The dow is at 13,996 but I predict a pull back after it goes over 14k..
[10:18] (TomM--) we won anbar? Kaboom....geezus....
[10:18] (sullys) TomM--, you're a defeatist, you are invested in American defeat in Iraq. You've all the loss in the 3rd quarter. If America succeeds in Iraq, you fail. Get lost.
[10:18] (RangerDog) I don't think one can say it was right to impeach Clinton without saying it was wrong to commute Libby's sentence.
[10:19] (TomM--) sullys true I have invested in Americas loss....dont you see how utterly stupid that is...your watch too much fox news.
[10:19] (freetrad3) TomM, Bush remains strong and has an amazing ability to act despite the unfair and sometimes idiotic criticism of him and when i say idiotic I particularly mean references of him as Nazi and so on which I think you would agree are idiotic.
[10:19] (RangerDog) Either punish both Clinton and Libby or hold neither accountable.
[10:19] (Chrono-Z) TomM-- you know I agree. It's kind of a bit pointless now. Not to mention all the people who keep going on and on with their little internet crusade to impeach him. It's just pointless now.
[10:19] (Chrono-Z) Not that it wasn't pointless before.
[10:19] (sullys) TomM--, you're poised to look like a real ass when this situation rights itself, and it will
[10:19] (sullys) as if you don't already
[10:20] (RangerDog) I don't think it's pointless, but, I recognize the point you two are making.
[10:20] (freetrad3) Especially consider our national hero FDR used more executive power than any president in history and Bush doesnt even come within shooting range of FDRs use of exec. power
[10:20] (Veep) China: Steamed cardboard and cat being sold as food http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=3369294
[10:20] (TomM--) freetrad3 of course...but he continues to be an idiot in public...either he doesnt understand or fathom the magic of tape or doesnt remember what he says a month ago...I can believe this guy was elected twice...
[10:21] (freetrad3) Ranger, well Clinton wasnt punished, so why punish libby ? And I agree, I think it would been a disastor had Clinton been removed from office in a Senate impeachment trial.
[10:21] (freetrad3) It harms the country
[10:21] (RangerDog) Clinton was punished.
[10:21] (gopp) if you have a cisco wireless access point
[10:21] (TomM--) free...why is it necessary to defend Bush by bringing up FDR and Clinton...cant you defend him on the facts?
[10:21] (freetrad3) We can never ever again, Lightly or even moderately severe a crime allow an impeachment. It must be only for the worst of crimes.
[10:21] (gopp) if you have a cisco wireless access point and it changes it it key every 20 min
[10:22] (gopp) how do you know wha tthe current key to enter to login
[10:22] (freetrad3) Treason, Or somethign comporable, Murder, Rape.. etc.. And By that I mean proven rape.
[10:22] (gopp) how does leap work
[10:22] (allan5oh) I think the Clinton/Libby comparison is a very good one, the original "crime" wasn't criminal, but the subsequent actions justified investigation
[10:22] (RangerDog) But my point is, either it's okay to lie under oath about a matter that is not illegal or its not. No logical way one can be pro-Clinton and anti-Libby. Or vice versa.
[10:22] (freetrad3) Juanita Brodderick should have come forward when it happened not 10 years later or whatever..
[10:22] (TomM--) lol
[10:22] (TomM--) i aint biting free....:)
[10:22] (freetrad3) Ranger its not ok, and there is no justification if libby did in fact lie under oath.
[10:22] (freetrad3) No justification at all.
[10:23] (freetrad3) if so he committed a criminal act and a serious one.
[10:23] (RangerDog) free, but I think 90% of America had inconsistent views regarding the two similar cases.
[10:23] (allan5oh) FT... you don't think perjury should be impeachable?
[10:23] (freetrad3) But the issue here is why did a prosecutor in effect perjur himself when he knew early on who leaked the report and didnt act or close the investigation because of nothign to act on
[10:24] (Veep) I'm sorry, I dont recall.
[10:24] (TomM--) So Clinton liked to get his dick sucked, and Bush put us into a mess in Iraq with 3700 dead and 25k wounded....damn we should of hung Clinton...
[10:24] (Veep) I dont recall that either
[10:24] (Veep) hehe
[10:24] (RangerDog) Forget him, free. Libby lied under oath. That's only reason he was prison bound.
[10:24] (freetrad3) Allan, No..
[10:24] (freetrad3) Not for a president
[10:24] (LSDWash) "should HAVE"
[10:24] (RangerDog) We are a nation of laws, not of personalities.
[10:24] (freetrad3) I think perhaps there are other ways to deal with it such as dont reelect him
[10:24] (freetrad3) and then prosecute him while he is no longer in office.
[10:25] (TomM--) by the way...for you males here...how many like to get blown? Only liberals? :)
[10:25] (RangerDog) Oh, I like Clinton, so there's nothing wrong with lying about legal sex. However, I don't like Libby, so his lying about a non crime is horrid.
[10:25] (TomM--) a man has to ask the obvious....lol
[10:25] (freetrad3) We lost the vietnam war we now know because Nixon was threatened with impeachment and it became his full time project to defend himself.. And what Nixon Alledgedly did was a serious crime
[10:25] (RangerDog) Our nation is comprised of 90% nitwits.
[10:25] (OldSchool) alledgedly
[10:25] (OldSchool) lol
[10:25] (freetrad3) Covering up a Burglary.
[10:26] (freetrad3) Ranger good point..
[10:26] (freetrad3) But
[10:26] (TomM--) only liberals like blowjobs!!! okie dokie....sorry for you conservs....LOL
[10:26] (freetrad3) I think the presidents effectiveness and ability to protect the nation is diminished when tried for crimes while in office and that the impeachment process in the future should be used for only the worst of crimes.
[10:27] (freetrad3) IM not downplaying the seriousness of perjury, that is a very serious crime.
[10:27] (freetrad3) But in this case it represented no risk to the state.
[10:27] (TomM--) Comet...Im sorry...I get out of control sometimes...:)
[10:27] (freetrad3) TomM, come on dont be silly.;
[10:27] (freetrad3) Outside of the presidency Clinton would be in prison
[10:28] (TomM--) freetrad3 thats exactly what Im being...to show how silly all this is...
[10:28] (freetrad3) And if people werent so afraid to come forward with allegations of rape he would be for something far worse than perjury
[10:28] (RangerDog) Well, Clinton should take the oath seriously.
[10:28] (freetrad3) But I repeat, impeaching presidents is an extremely serious matter not to be used lightly..
[10:29] (RangerDog) Quite frankly, Clinton needed to be focused on things other than porking the intern girl.
[10:29] (CometBaby) Not only did clinton not take it seriously, but his wife covered for him, his staff covered for him, people took the fall for him .. and the Dem. voters all pretended it didn't matter.
[10:29] (freetrad3) It should be used for high crimes and misdemeanors and the term misdemeanor at the time of the writing of the constitution did not mean what it means today it was much worse.
[10:29] (TomM--) ok....that Rapists Clinton....lets take him out and hang him...Im for that....course you realize we may have to hang a few others....
[10:29] (Veep) yes, lets not take it lightly, lets talk about impeaching bush for another 6 years
[10:29] (freetrad3) Comet and the gop voters and the independents.
[10:29] (RangerDog) I have no problem with Clinton being punished for his perjury or Libby being punished. I'm pro-truth. I don't understand the pro-perjury crowd.
[10:29] (freetrad3) One thing we cant deny was Clintons immense popularity
[10:30] (CometBaby) FreeTrade this gop voter never pretended it didn't matter
[10:30] (freetrad3) Im not defending him I think he is a sociopath, but thats the truth.
[10:30] (hans--) well Comet actually quite a bit of the country didn't think it mattered. Clinton had some of the highest poll figures when he left office. Heck, I bet he could be re-elected today if he could run :D
[10:30] (RangerDog) I know, free. I liked Clinton okay.
[10:30] (freetrad3) And the truth comes before all else with me in my analysis of anything
[10:30] (hans--) Even during the impeachment, American's pointed the finger at the GOP for all the smear tactics.
[10:30] (CometBaby) but we were ostracized for it .. just like Tom is doing now. Oh you republicans just don't like blow jobs.
[10:30] (TomM--) lets bring values back...no more extra marital sex....no more nuttin....hang all the bastards....I wonder which side of the gallows will have the most...the Repubs or Dems....be fun to see
[10:30] (RTistGone) cough
[10:31] (freetrad3) Comet, Your standards are very high, And you live by very high standards which are admirable.. MOst people dont live by as high a standard as you do. and a lot of republicans voted for clinton. A lot of buisness men to my surprise.
[10:31] (TomM--) CometBaby errrrrrrrr...never mind....ROFL
[10:31] (freetrad3) But then DOle was no peach and neither was Bush 41..
[10:31] (Veep) i think people would have forgiven bill's blowjob if monica was hot
[10:32] (TomM--) couldnt bring myself to ask!! :)
[10:32] (freetrad3) Look, Can we get off Bills Blow Job.
[10:32] (RangerDog) A new low for Fox News....they are covering now threatening cell phone calls.
[10:32] (freetrad3) THats not what he was impeached for.
[10:32] (freetrad3) IMpeachment right or wrong, it wasnt a blow job
[10:32] (RTistGone) veep or hed have been reelected if monica was a he
[10:32] (RangerDog) The girls who got called are.....(drumroll)....pretty white girls!!
[10:32] (freetrad3) It was for not only perjuring but a worse crime, Subjourning perjury
[10:32] (Veep) i dotn get it
[10:32] (freetrad3) and they said well the senate vindicated him... NO THEY DIDNT
[10:33] (freetrad3) Take this from Senator Byrds speech on the matter..
[10:33] (freetrad3) DId he commit a felony ? Absolutely
[10:33] (freetrad3) Did he disgrace the office ? Absolutely
[10:33] (freetrad3) Did he commit a crime ? There is no doubt !
[10:33] (freetrad3) Will I Remove him offfice ? Absolutely not.
[10:33] (freetrad3) And that was a common feeling with a lot of them
[10:33] (TomM--) at least you see how stupid these debates are....its beyond silly...we got a world to worry about, terrorists and trade, and global tanning, and the Pope acting all stupid, and we get ourselves all wrapped up in whether some lonesome Senator wants to get laid....
[10:34] (TomM--) omg...the Senator for Louisiana got horny....National crisis.....:)
[10:34] (Veep) the worst part of this is the younger generation has been learing from the bush/cheney presidentcy and you can basically do whatever you want, even as a gov official, and they are our future leaders
[10:35] (RangerDog) yes, tom. But it's because they campaign on "family values."
[10:35] (Nockian) Veep: well, it is the American way.
[10:35] (freetrad3) Someone who got me thinking about this is the highly intellectual teacher of neurology who is a Republican friend of mine.. And he said he was against impeaching clinton and was against impeaching nixon. And basically said he was against impeaching any president unless it met the worst criminal behavior..
[10:35] (freetrad3) Murder, Proven Rape, Grand Larceny, Bribery, SOmething very serious
[10:35] (freetrad3) Something which harms the nation.
[10:35] (Veep) american way, but its getting worse and more blatent, and the younger generation will out do todays leaders
[10:36] (freetrad3) Democrats are now campaigning on family values if you havent noticed.
[10:36] (TomM--) RangerDog no...its because we liberals play gotcha!!! I do it...we all do it....its pay back for Clintons blow jobs! Lets be honest...and maybe the Congress could get back to running the country.
[10:36] (Veep) remember how powerful rome was?
[10:36] (freetrad3) Thats how they picked up a lot of democratic conservative seats.
[10:36] (sullys) which is a bit like madonna writing childrens books.. WTF?
[10:36] (RangerDog) Take Gore for example. Are his plane trips killing the planet? No. But it does look hypocritical.
[10:37] (RangerDog) Well, there's gotcha, but it goes back to at least the time of John Quincy Adams.
[10:37] (Veep) i think after al gore lost the election he fell off the deep end
[10:37] (Veep) he is a cook
[10:37] (RangerDog) I think there was a claim that Andrew Jackson's wife was a whore.
[10:37] (freetrad3) TomM Yes but dont have a double standard. SOme of the things bush has been accused of have been silly and sickening in the extreme, And even the Mark Foley incident was blown way out of proportion
[10:37] (freetrad3) and used politically
[10:37] (freetrad3) He never even committed a crime.
[10:38] (TomM--) freetrad3 Nixons biggest crime...and its on tape, is when Dean told him it would cost a million dollars, and he said "that wouldnt be a problem"...to me that was the smoking gun
[10:38] (freetrad3) He crossed an ethical barrier but hell that happens all the time and he should have been punished but he didnt do anything serious.
[10:38] (freetrad3) Unless being gay is a crime
[10:38] (freetrad3) TomM, Clinton was asked by Republicans to resign..
[10:38] (TomM--) freetrad3 thats my point!!! But Bush doesnt help...now be honest...they have to keep him out of the public sector...I mean geezus...
[10:39] (RangerDog) I am just saying a person should be consistent. If you are pro-perjury for Clinton, you should be pro-perjury for Llibby.
[10:39] (freetrad3) IN fact they forced him to resign, or told them he had no choice or else.
[10:39] (Chrono-Z) You know this whole Al Gore thing and "raising awareness", I'm sick of damn death to everyone "raising awareness" all the time and not much else. How about lets stop doing some awareness raising and actually doing something for a damn change. And that goes for all the "raising awareness" crap.
[10:39] (freetrad3) But The process of endless investigations in congress (Perhaps someone else should have done the investigations), when a war was going on probably cost us the war.
[10:39] (freetrad3) And which is a worse crime ?
[10:40] (freetrad3) DO you know what the burglars found out btw ?
[10:40] (hans--) Vietnam had ended by the time the Congress was investigating Watergate.
[10:40] (hans--) or was seriously winding down.
[10:40] (freetrad3) That the DNC was setting up prostitutes for big donors and campaign big dogs who came into town.
[10:40] (freetrad3) Silly but nevertheless..
[10:40] (freetrad3) And Nixon whined, Kennedy did it, Johnson did it.. WHy me ?
[10:40] (Chrono-Z) I'm thinking more and more all this raising awareness crap less about raising awareness and more about raking in some cash and slowly fading away.
[10:41] (freetrad3) Why me ? Because you got caught you dumb fucker.
[10:41] (freetrad3) hahah
[10:41] (freetrad3) But now we are debating ancient history ;)
[10:41] (RangerDog) I think we need to have more awareness raising events. Like make people aware that if B follows A that does not mean A caused B.
[10:41] (TomM--) my history! :)
[10:41] (Veep) remmber when bush administration said we are not at "war" so things like geneva convention for the guantanamo bay prisoners were not in effect, are we officially at "war" like, do the international laws of was apply yet?
[10:41] (freetrad3) THough it goes to the reasons why I now think that impeachment should be reserved for the most serious crimes only
[10:42] (Chrono-Z) You know if you honestly think about it what is the point of spending your life raising your self to some of the highest power in the land if you can't get some unspoken perks like high dollar call girls.
[10:42] (gopp) The terrorist network Al-Qaida will likely leverage its contacts and capabilities in Iraq to mount an attack on U.S. soil, according to a new National Intelligence Estimate on threats to the United States.
[10:42] (Chrono-Z) Really it should be assumed.
[10:43] (freetrad3) Well I think today is the day I move my office.
[10:43] (RangerDog) Is Al Qaeda In Iraq the same as Al Qaeda?
[10:43] (TomM--) I think in the few years I have left I will dedicate my life to preaching to Conservatives the plusses of blowjobs....I must say that Conservative Women dont need preaching to.....:)
[10:43] (freetrad3) Bush never said we were not at war.
[10:43] (Veep) Freetrade: got the red stapler?
[10:44] (Chrono-Z) Sounds like a wondeful day of wrangling cables and smashing yourself into the wall with new networking issues freetrad3 hah. "Damn it worked in the other room what is the problem now?!"
[10:44] (freetrad3) He coined the term war on terrorism, well I dont think he coined it but he used it a million times.
[10:44] (RangerDog) Chrono, Ghandi swore off sex at some point in his life.
[10:44] (freetrad3) how can that be construed to say we are not at war.
[10:44] (freetrad3) The only caveat woul be with context.
[10:44] (TomM--) ooops Conservative women, other than Comet....a man cant be too careful...:)
[10:44] (freetrad3) we are not in a coventional war.
[10:44] (Veep) they said all the time were not at war
[10:44] (freetrad3) Conventional war.
[10:44] (Chrono-Z) RangerDog even wise people have stupid ideas from time to time.
[10:45] (Chrono-Z) Ghandi gets a mulligan for that I would say.
[10:45] (RangerDog) haha
[10:45] (freetrad3) TomM, I love you man I do.. But if you start preaching bJs on this channel full time I will have to take action
[10:45] (TomM--) freetrad3 k....:(
[10:45] (freetrad3) Except in rare circumstances I want to keep the language of this channel PG
[10:45] (RangerDog) I just saw the Ghandi movie recently. Interesting guy.
[10:45] (freetrad3) I dont mind fuck shit damn or hell..
[10:46] (freetrad3) But lets not make a habit of graphic references to sexuality
[10:46] (RangerDog) free, perhaps f--- should be banned.
[10:46] (Chrono-Z) Atleast not until 3am when USmale goes into his weird homoerotic humor speil.
[10:46] (Chrono-Z) Hah!
[10:47] (hans--) 3 AM, it's all the time.
[10:47] (hans--) :D
[10:47] (RangerDog) true ;)
[10:47] (Chrono-Z) Fairpoint hah!
[10:47] (TomM--) freetrad3 so about the impeachment thing....if a President took a nation to war...and to do that lied about it, and his staff lied about it, and American troops died, and three quarters of a billion of the treasury was spent....and all this stemmed from a lie....would that President be subject to impeachment?
[10:47] (gopp) TomM-- he didn't lie
[10:47] (Veep) i dont "RECALL"
[10:47] (Veep) lol
[10:48] (gopp) TomM-- clinton lied
[10:48] (gopp) hillary lied
[10:48] (VT) TomM-- Clinton should have been impeached.
[10:48] (gopp) Kerry lied the un lied the england people lied itlians lied you hmm
[10:48] (Chrono-Z) I have to admit it is really nice that, atleast in my experiance, is one of the very very few channel on efnet that has very very little conversational downside at anytime.
[10:48] (TomM--) that wasnt a statement of fact...just a question about impeachment...
[10:48] (Chrono-Z) And it actually worthwhile to read.
[10:48] (RangerDog) No sleep tonight. Will be watching all-night Senate debate.
[10:48] (Veep) course bush lied, who do you think is running this country, he is the CEO/President of the us
[10:48] (Chrono-Z) Exempting all those strange .no channels.
[10:48] (Veep) he is the boss man
[10:48] (freetrad3) Ghandi Movie was good but a little known fact about Ghandi who was schooled in Britian remember.. He said once if he had an enemy who wasnt honorable he wouldnt call for passive resistance he would call for military resistance. I am paraphrasing but the point is Ghandi said passive resistance works best under certain circumstances which fit it the best.
[10:49] (Veep) if it was a CEO, he would be the fall guy
[10:49] (TomM--) if a President did that should he be impeached?
[10:49] (bun-bun) tomm: absolutely.... but there is no proof and tons of investigations have shown that it wasn't a lie... but faulty intel that is wrong fo rthe time but not a lie
[10:49] (RangerDog) I see, free.
[10:49] (freetrad3) And I think the criteria are, A) an honorable enemy B) An enemy you can defeat militarily. IN at least the latter purpose you have no choice but to choose passive resistance or be butchered.
[10:49] (freetrad3) SO he was wise.
[10:50] (bun-bun) if you have proof that he lied and KNEW it at the time, then yes that would be valid grounds for impeachment... however it's not matching reality
[10:50] (Chrono-Z) Did Ghandi also say in much more elegant words that if a man was to shoot you that it would be perfectly reasonable to pick up your own gun and shoot him first?
[10:50] (Veep) the faulty intel it seems was the excuse, they were going to pick any excuse to go to war
[10:50] (freetrad3) He understood how to win.
[10:50] (Veep) they were just waiting
[10:50] (Chrono-Z) I see something of the sort credited to him on occasion.
[10:50] (hans--) Chrono, that doesn't sound like Ghandi at all, but I'm not sure.
[10:50] (bun-bun) veep: got any support for that assertation?
[10:51] (TomM--) how did that all work out for Ghandi?
[10:51] (bun-bun) and dont bring in 'war plans' we have 'war plans' for every nation.. there are whole groups that do that kind of contingency planning
[10:51] (hans--) Was shot by a religious nutcase.
[10:51] (freetrad3) Bun-bun, Hey I decided to go with a good second computer rather than a great single computer. But I need to network them and see how I can use them together which will be a challenge, I will definately divide responsibilities between the computers one for buisness one more for internet and riskier behavior ;)
[10:51] (Veep) sorry my pentagon connection was sent to Cuba
[10:51] (bun-bun) FT: i'll come help you if you want
[10:51] (bun-bun) buy a pizza :)
[10:51] (Veep) now he doesnt recall
[10:51] (Chrono-Z) hans-- it had to do with his speaking with this line 'Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
[10:52] (TomM--) hans u sure....anyone who takes anothers life is a nut case...but in political situations us sure?
[10:52] (freetrad3) It also worked well for the American Blacks.
[10:52] (bun-bun) and i can help you for like i dunno 200 or so in hw/sw costs
[10:52] (freetrad3) Passive resistance
[10:52] (freetrad3) I need to make a phone call brb
[10:52] (Rebec) hi everyone
[10:53] (bun-bun) you should deploy NIS on both... and a decent router with a FW
[10:53] (hans--) yes there's a difference to me with a religious nut job murdering someone versus a run of the mill nutjob.
[10:53] (bun-bun) should take about 2-3 hrs
[10:53] (freetrad3) bunbun, I will need your advise when I get them set up
[10:53] (bun-bun) costco has (or had) on the website a NIS 3 computer 2007 software package for like 30 bucks
[10:54] (TWThomas) NIS?
[10:54] (bun-bun) even if you cant get the 20 dollars off.. its still only 50 bucks for 3 computers for a year
[10:54] (freetrad3) bunbun can you explain in msg what that is to me ? So I understand it better while i do a couple buisness calls ?
[10:54] (bun-bun) norton internet security.. 2 way firewall, antispam, antispyware, antivirus
[10:54] (Veep) its ironic that the was on drugs is so important in the usa, then we "liberate" afghanistan and now it produces ton of the worlds opium. Things that make you say HUH?
[10:55] (Chrono-Z) Man I wish we had a costco here. I've for years heard of their wonderful above that of Sam's Club.
[10:55] (freetrad3) Norton ?
[10:55] (freetrad3) Ahh
[10:55] (TomM--) k I gotta go...sorry to make the bj issue a big thing...just trying to help my conserv friends....us libs have been having them for years....u think Pat Robertson ever had one? rofl....I am going to run before Im run out!! seeya all....:)
[10:55] (bun-bun) yeah.. internet security package
[10:55] (freetrad3) Ok well I have a 3 pack of zone alarm
[10:55] (Veep) i simply dont consume enough to ever need to visit a costco
[10:55] (bun-bun) zone alarm is a decent package
[10:56] (bun-bun) but a few years back it sucked so bad that people would disable it because it caused problems
[10:56] (bun-bun) and zone alarm is just the firewall component
[10:57] (Veep) Fsecure is my favorite, it alerts you whenever an application connects. You can say, allow forever, deny forever, allow till quit, etc....
[10:57] (bun-bun) FT you have my email.. .just ping me that way... put FT from #politics in the subject line
[10:57] (Veep) but usually i just us a macintosh, no need to worry there
[10:57] (bun-bun) veep yes NIS does the exact same thing
[10:57] (bun-bun) and has 'zones'
[10:58] (freetrad3) ok
[10:58] (bun-bun) where rules change if you are at home, or away, etc
[10:58] (Veep) yeah, but i hate norton anything these days, so annoying. Mcafee sucks too
[10:58] (Veep) takes too much system resources
[10:58] (Veep) fsecure just sits quietly
[10:58] (bun-bun) I used to hate that until about 3 years ago.. they have made it REALLY easy and it doesn't eat system resources
[10:59] (bun-bun) norton right now.. 0% cpu 1.7M mem
[10:59] (Veep) sounds good. but once it turned to shit, i just switched and never looked back
[11:00] (freetrad3) zone Alarm does all of that and I find at least in my experience it to be less bloated.
[11:00] (gopp) bun-bun Root is a state of mind
[11:00] (freetrad3) Now maybe its just perception
[11:00] (freetrad3) but Norton was hog
[11:00] (gopp) north internet security is the worst software alvie
[11:00] (gopp) it bloated and unsecure
[11:00] (bun-bun) ft zone alarm has anti-spyware and anti-virus now?
[11:00] (bun-bun) or did you buy a bundled package including that stuff?
[11:00] (bun-bun) if so.. you are set
[11:01] (freetrad3) yes
[11:01] (bun-bun) then you'll probably want a WAP/router probably linksys
[11:01] (Veep) blink is the best anti virus spyware app.
[11:01] (freetrad3) I have a 2wire will that work ?
[11:01] (gopp) Veep url for fsecure
[11:01] (bun-bun) FT: i'd need to look at it
[11:01] (freetrad3) And 2 usable ips
[11:01] (gopp) the best software firewall is
[11:01] (Veep) http://www.f-secure.com/
[11:01] (Veep) hehe
[11:01] (gopp) sygate
[11:01] (gopp) sygate is the best software firewall
[11:02] (bun-bun) but a decent router from linksys is ( 100
[11:02] (gopp) and NOD32 is the best
[11:02] (gopp) but if you have a linksys router
[11:02] (bun-bun) there is no 'best'
[11:02] (gopp) no need for a software firewall
[11:02] (gopp) acutally having two firewalls is bad bad bad
[11:02] (bun-bun) but kasperski is rated highest
[11:02] (gopp) on the same system
[11:02] (bun-bun) gopp wrong
[11:02] (gopp) bun-bun it $$$
[11:02] (gopp) no right
[11:02] (gopp) bun-bun two firewall cuase snake
[11:02] (bun-bun) yeah ok whatever
[11:02] (gopp) attack
[11:02] (gopp) I know I am IT security major
[11:03] (gopp) having both a hardware and software firewall
[11:03] (gopp) not smart
[11:03] (freetrad3) fsecure is it a firewall as well now ?
[11:03] (bun-bun) and how do you handle edge firewall or alternatively if you deploy on the edge how do you handle virused boxes on the LAN?
[11:03] (Veep) gopp ever use blink?
[11:03] (MikeyD) software firewalls are useless
[11:03] (gopp) maybe some new firewall are good for that
[11:03] (freetrad3) bunbun, well I will be asking you a lot of questions.
[11:03] (freetrad3) Youc an be sure ;)
[11:03] (gopp) if you crash a software firewall
[11:03] (bun-bun) not having an edge FW is bad..... also not having internal individual machine FW's is also bad
[11:03] (gopp) what good is it
[11:03] (Veep) yeah, fsecure has a firewall, you can turn if off
[11:04] (DeDannan) howdy L0c0, how's the fear level today?
[11:04] (bun-bun) because it blocks TWO different security scenarios
[11:04] (freetrad3) Is 2wire ok ? bunbun ?
[11:04] (gopp) it in my damn security book
[11:04] (bun-bun) leaving either one off leaves you somewhat open to problems
[11:04] (L0c0) DeDannan: nowhere near as high as the fatigue level
[11:04] (L0c0) hehe
[11:04] (DeDannan) heh
[11:04] (L0c0) i got 2.5hrs of sleep
[11:04] (bun-bun) thats nice gopp.. you know I write that kind of stuff right?
[11:04] (DeDannan) yipes
[11:05] (MikeyD) the best policy you can have it secure your *nix boxes best you can but never let windows have a public interface at all and use a hardware firewall to all fuck and back with nat to best secure the windows machines
[11:05] (Veep) blink is at www.eeye.com
[11:05] (gopp) bun-bun yes let me find it
[11:05] (gopp) what blink
[11:05] (bun-bun) i've been running 2 layers of firewalls for ) 8 years with no problems
[11:05] (gopp) bun-bun do you know the snake attack
[11:05] (freetrad3) gopp, You may be reading his book :) haha
[11:05] (bun-bun) its called 'layered' security gopp
[11:05] (gopp) Fretless :)
[11:05] (gopp) bun-bun sure but I mean two software firewall
[11:05] (gopp) i.e linkys is software firewall
[11:05] (gopp) not hardware
[11:05] (MikeyD) software firewalls are useless
[11:05] (gopp) firmware based
[11:05] (bun-bun) all firewalls are 'SW" by that argument
[11:06] (freetrad3) NO they are not useless at all
[11:06] (L0c0) my friend was driving into town and her car died about an hour out, so i went to pick her up, came back, picked her up, then drove back, stayed out 'til 5, woke up at 7.30 b/c i had to get working on the yard before it got too hot
[11:06] (Veep) blink rocks, its great at finding spyware and virus that havent been discovered. best detection im ny opinion
[11:06] (bun-bun) all 'hw firewalls are firmware/software based
[11:06] (L0c0) now its noon and the sun's blazing, i'm gonna eat and pass out
[11:06] (bun-bun) including pix/routers/etc
[11:06] (gopp) Veep what reviews
[11:06] (gopp) cisco pix are good
[11:06] (MikeyD) they cant even begin to secure anything via software because you have no way to protect from shit that can alter it or turn it off without you knowing
[11:06] (gopp) but some get cost $
[11:06] (TWThomas) bun-bun : hows the #TZ today ?
[11:06] (bun-bun) those are firmware/SW gopp
[11:06] (Veep) gopp what you mean?
[11:06] (gopp) bun-bun sure
[11:06] (bun-bun) dead
[11:06] (gopp) one second
[11:06] (gopp) let get you the attack
[11:06] (bun-bun) gopp don't bother... I've been doing this at a pretty high level for a long time
[11:06] (freetrad3) Ive tested firewalls naked and full on against websties designed to test security
[11:06] (MikeyD) this being the case, you could have 1000000 software firewalls and theyd all be dispatched just as quickly
[11:07] (gopp) bun-bun Personal Firewalls are "snake oil," and really aren't worth the trouble.
[11:07] (MikeyD) hence, useless
[11:07] (gopp) bun-bun the ideal firewall is probably an old box running linux or bsd, with my computers connected through it
[11:07] (MikeyD) i mean, the best policy you can have is dont give windows a public interface
[11:07] (freetrad3) My Software firewall works great but also you need to know something about using ity
[11:07] (freetrad3) sure
[11:07] (gopp) freetrad3 what does ibm use for firewall
[11:08] (bun-bun) mikeyd the layer isn't to try to block the 'same attack' its to prevent outside attacks from getting inside (the edge FW) then the internal SW ones are to prevent internal LAN proliferation of viri/etc
[11:08] (bun-bun) gopp the linksys's run linux
[11:08] (gopp) yea I know
[11:08] (gopp) but
[11:08] (gopp) that a can be crippled
[11:08] (Veep) most of the time i use my apple macintosh, who cares about firewalls and virus
[11:08] (gopp) I mean running your own linux version
[11:08] (gopp) with your iptables
[11:08] (gopp) and kernel
[11:08] (freetrad3) I considered keeping my new computer networked to this one but not the internet.. But I realize thats impractical I can keep a very tight firewall on the internet by isolating my other computer and still connecting it to this one
[11:08] (MikeyD) ive never once seen that used successfully
[11:08] (gopp) not some binary firmware bun-bun
[11:08] (freetrad3) I will use this for my internet crap
[11:08] (gopp) open source, and complied by the user
[11:08] (MikeyD) you know what would be nice tho
[11:09] (bun-bun) mikeyd i have seen 2 internal lan attacks defeated by the layered stuff
[11:09] (MikeyD) if i could do ip on these 4gb fc cards
[11:09] (bun-bun) and dozens from oustide
[11:09] (gopp) freetrad3 put two nic card
[11:09] (gopp) freetrad3 one connect to the internet network
[11:09] (bun-bun) gopp what do you think openwrt is?
[11:09] (gopp) and one to the other
[11:09] (freetrad3) Gopp, Already have
[11:09] (gopp) yes
[11:09] (freetrad3) Oh
[11:09] (gopp) I have openwrt
[11:09] (gopp) on mine
[11:09] (freetrad3) I dont think so
[11:09] (gopp) :)
[11:09] (gopp) but normally don't
[11:09] (gopp) err normally user don't
[11:09] (freetrad3) I will network them to my router
[11:09] (gopp) they have default linkys one
[11:09] (MikeyD) ive got such a crush on this company called q-logic
[11:09] (bun-bun) then why are you talking about cutom linux kernels and iptables.. THATS what openwrt is
[11:09] (MikeyD) they make such great stuff
[11:10] (bun-bun) the linux linksys is ALSO the same thing
[11:10] (gopp) bun-bun that not what normal people use
[11:10] (Veep) Tomato is my favorite over WRT http://www.polarcloud.com/tomato
[11:10] (gopp) but it a binary version
[11:10] (Veep) i got Tomato running on my linksys
[11:10] (gopp) which has been proven to be hacked
[11:10] (Libertine) Mikey: the SAN company?
[11:10] (gopp) thier certain attacks that use kismat
[11:10] (gopp) and can take over any linkys router that is pluged in few seconds
[11:10] * hans-- hearts his Commodore Vic 20
[11:10] (Libertine) Mikey: i use their infiniband crap.
[11:10] (gopp) change router password
[11:10] (gopp) and own it
[11:11] (gopp) they do it all the time in my college dorms
[11:11] (Veep) gopp even if its not running linksys firmware?
[11:11] (bun-bun) uh that would be what updates are for.. plus i'm running linksys talisman old ersion (2years) give it a shot.. .attack athena.demit.net
[11:11] (MikeyD) yeah
[11:11] (gopp) bun-bun no th anks
[11:11] (MikeyD) we use their hardware in xsan deployments all the time
[11:11] (gopp) oh k a edge firewall is oh k
[11:11] (bun-bun) you won't get in.. the FW is tight
[11:11] (gopp) but that different
[11:11] (MikeyD) i got my certification from them last year
[11:11] (gopp) bun-bun well becuase I am not near your wifi
[11:11] (MikeyD) their hbas are really nice too
[11:11] (bun-bun) uh hello i made that clear about 20 minutes ago
[11:11] (gopp) nor do I have kismet
[11:11] (gopp) if I had kismet I could own it
[11:11] (gopp) and other tools
[11:11] (Libertine) Doe broke 14k...
[11:12] (Libertine) er Dow
[11:12] (MikeyD) tho, atto seems to have the best hbas on the block
[11:12] (gopp) one second I will show you where it say two firewall is bad
[11:12] (bun-bun) you wont get throguh the wifi either....
[11:12] (bun-bun) you may own a default config.. mine isnt
[11:12] (DeDannan) Libertine, when rupert buys DJ there'll be records set everyday and DowJones ALERTS! every hour :)
[11:12] (hans--) heh
[11:13] (MikeyD) still, last xsan deploument i did called for asanbox 9000 series
[11:13] (Libertine) "Trade Alert Level: Yellow"
[11:13] (Libertine) Stock Terror!
[11:13] (MikeyD) i had a huge boner for that thing
[11:13] (gopp) Security goes beyond having a firewall or intrusion
[11:13] (gopp) detection systems. Security means knowing where your exposure
[11:13] (gopp) points are, prioritizing them, and fixing them in a timely manner.
[11:13] (Libertine) and a police sirens will flash when a merger happens.
[11:13] (Veep) security is a process not a product
[11:13] (gopp) a firewall is good, but an ids is good to
[11:14] (DeDannan) flashy online graphics too
[11:14] (bun-bun) gopp thats security 101
[11:14] (Libertine) veep: well said.
[11:14] (Veep) any ids system that runs on a linksys?
[11:14] (bun-bun) uh yeah NIS has ids built in.. i also have ids internally here
[11:14] (Libertine) an ids is not always necessary.
[11:14] (Veep) thx
[11:15] (DeDannan) security is an expensive process of buying products
[11:15] (Veep) hehe
[11:15] (Libertine) not always.
[11:15] (bun-bun) dedannan nah you can do it free
[11:15] (bun-bun) if you know what you are doing
[11:15] (Libertine) could always install snort and hire a director of IT that knows what they are doing and call it a day.
[11:15] (Libertine) or ..
[11:16] (bun-bun) you can leverage what you have.... and you can do 'decent' security for a home network for ( 150
[11:16] (Libertine) you can listen to a IDS Vendor and piss away millions.
[11:16] (Veep) or just tell all the employees not internet for you
[11:16] (Libertine) "Don't worry ma'am, We're from Cisco; we're here to bankrupt you!"
[11:16] (DeDannan) Cisco been berry berry good to me :)
[11:16] (Libertine) pfft.
[11:17] (Rebec) Libertine lol...get my gun!
[11:17] (gopp) Libertine yepe
[11:17] (Libertine) Cisco's software remains consistent.. consistently crap
[11:17] (Rebec) DeDannan yeah apple's been good to me
[11:17] (DeDannan) I dont buy their products...just their stock :)
[11:17] (Libertine) their network gear is decent enough tho
[11:17] (gopp) Libertine sure snort and ethereal are best
[11:17] (Veep) just tell the employees, you dont need the internets at work, its just a bunch of small tubes, and your internets will get clogged with all your emails and slow it down for congressmen
[11:17] (bun-bun) gopp ethereal is dead.. its wireshark now
[11:17] (Libertine) hell they OEM IBM'
[11:17] (DeDannan) Veep, but what about the google?
[11:17] (Libertine) hell they OEM IBM's Netcool because their own NMS tools suck
[11:17] (bun-bun) may want to keep up on security stuff before you talk about it... it's been wireshark for about 1.5 years now
[11:18] (gopp) or nesu
[11:18] (Veep) the google has barely any images at www.google.com so it wont clog the tubes
[11:18] (gopp) bun-bun on yea I Forgot
[11:18] (gopp) it called wireshark
[11:18] (DeDannan) Veep, the google is good for finding maps
[11:18] (Veep) but you cant find dick cheneys house
[11:19] (Veep) he deleted it from google maps
[11:19] (MikeyD) man
[11:19] (hans--) he's got the POWER!
[11:19] (hans--) (G)
[11:19] (MikeyD) i cant say how pleased i am with the google maps app on my iphone
[11:19] (Veep) he keeps the maps of his house in the man sized safe
[11:19] (Rebec) doesn't he live in blair house? I know exactly where that is I've been there
[11:19] (MikeyD) its already saved me a bunch of times
[11:19] (Rebec) hans so do you lol
[11:19] (DeDannan) nah..that's where one of his many body doubles lives
[11:19] (gopp) thier firewalking
[11:19] (Yaakov) Hello, Rebec.
[11:19] (gopp) or firechalk
[11:20] (gopp) attacks
[11:20] (hans--) naw, I heard though if your photo is on the street view, Google will delete it and take a new snapshot.
[11:20] (Rebec) Yaakov shalom motek ;) how are you?
[11:20] (Rebec) hans mine? sweet
[11:20] (Yaakov) I am well enough, and you?
[11:20] (Rebec) I'm OK today, I had to explain to a woman why I haven't seen my children since May that was rough, but I think I've recovered from that
[11:21] (Yaakov) :(
[11:21] (Rebec) I'm working on planning my trip to Tel Aviv
[11:21] (hans--) bbl have a good one ;)
[11:21] (Rebec) yes I know :( it's really upsetting to me what is happening here with the courts, but it's the way it is here :(
[11:21] (Rebec) justice doesn't exist I'm not looking for it anymore
[11:21] (gopp) bun-bun is this true "The first step you should take when performing a penetration test against a firewall device is determining which ports are allowed through a firewall and which ports are filtered."
[11:21] (gopp) true
[11:22] (Veep) naw, they proubably just photoshop you out
[11:22] (Veep) why bother sending the google van to take a new photo
[11:22] (Veep) if i ever see that google van im going to moon it
[11:23] (L0c0) 5
[11:23] (DeDannan) 4
[11:23] (Rebec) 3
[11:23] (Veep) 2
[11:24] (DeDannan) HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
[11:24] (Veep) wrong.domain.name
[11:24] (jakeriver) you too.
[11:24] (Veep) hehe
[11:25] (gopp) Veep "Too many administrators assume they are well protected because a firewall is in place; sometimes this is simply not the case. A firewall is only as good as the rule sets provided to it."
[11:25] (Veep) true.
[11:25] (Veep) gopp speaking of stuff like that, I love the packeteer packetshaper
[11:25] (Nockian) or the rule sets it comes with out of the box, so to speak. most deny all inbound traffic by default.
[11:26] (gopp) Veep url
[11:26] (gopp) Nockian I read a new storie that some ATm machines
[11:26] (Veep) http://www.packeteer.com/
[11:26] (gopp) where left with defualt admin password
[11:26] (gopp) for the ATM
[11:26] (gopp) and the manual was avaible online for free from the vendor
[11:26] (gopp) :)
[11:26] (Nockian) gopp: i'd believe that. an ATM machine is not a firewall, nor is it connected to a public network :)
[11:26] (Veep) stupid people shouldnt own atm machines
[11:26] (gopp) so if you new the model just download the manul
[11:26] (rondd) Residents downstream of China's controversial Three Gorges Dam in Hunan province have responded in traditional fashion to a plague of two billion rats forced into farmland by rising water levels - by offering them to restaurants in neighbouring Guangdong province, the home of "if it's edible, we'll eat it" Cantonese cuisine.
[11:27] (Veep) WHAT? no one told me I couldnt leave the keys in the car door?
[11:27] (gopp) but Nockian bad user, new that and he changed that 10 usd = 50 usd or something
[11:27] (gopp) like that
[11:27] (gopp) he chagned the value of money
[11:27] (gopp) and the machines was spewing more money then he had in his account
[11:27] (gopp) he got caught after a week of the store clerk noticting him
[11:27] (rondd) The rising water below the structure evicted the rodents from the banks of Dongting Lake, "a series of wetlands and lakes", into neighbouring farmland, where they quickly decimated 6,000 square miles of crops.
[11:27] (rondd) Desperate farmers at first deployed poison, but that simply killed the cats and dogs "traditionally use to combat the menace", while doing nothing to reduce rat numbers.
[11:27] (rondd) However, they soon realised there was another, money-making solution to the crisis - a "major uptake in supply and demand for rat meat", reported by live food traders in Changde at the western edge of the lake. One dealer told local media: "People there [Guangdong] are rich and like to eat exotic things, so business is very good."
[11:27] (rondd) lol
[11:27] (Veep) no, he changed the $20 which is all most of them hold to $1
[11:28] (gopp) wow I didn't know that
[11:28] (gopp) Veep oh yea
[11:28] (gopp) that was it
[11:28] (gopp) I forgot
[11:28] (gopp) Veep that was great story
[11:28] (gopp) Veep "Firewall was originally used to describe a barrier put between connected homes and apartments to reduce noise and protect neighbors from fires in neighboring units."
[11:28] (Veep) but didnt it know his CC# that said he took out $20, which was actually 20 x $20?
[11:28] (CometBaby) rondd it comes from years of starvation. For centuries they kept themselves alive by eating whatever moved. Ultimately, they developted a taste for it. I know it is repulsive to us... but I wont' begrudge them eating something they have aquired a taste for, in order to stay alive.
[11:28] (Veep) maybe he was using a prepaid
[11:28] (CometBaby) but oh gawd .. they do eat the most horrible stuff !!!
[11:29] (CometBaby) walking the markets in china is a revelation
[11:29] (rondd) cometbaby the korean wife of my golf buddy eats quite a few weird things
[11:29] (Veep) i thought a firewall was that thing in cars to seperate engine from the passengers
[11:29] (Veep) hehe
[11:29] (CometBaby) veep not anymore :)
[11:30] (gopp) Veep "When using multiple layers of firewalls on a network, it is usually a good idea to use different types of firewalls. For example, if the primary firewall, or pair of firewalls, is Check Point the internal firewalls should be NetScreen or PIX. This way, if an attacker manages to exploit vulnerability in one firewall the second will still provide a layer of protection"
[11:30] (rondd) I just liked the last sentence in that posting comet
[11:30] (rondd) One dealer told local media: "People there [Guangdong] are rich and like to eat exotic things, so business is very good."
[11:30] (gopp) wtf my professor said it not good idea to have two
[11:30] (CometBaby) hehe
[11:30] (Veep) heh, basically our firewall sucks, i'll sell you two
[11:30] (rondd) exotic !!
[11:31] (CometBaby) gopp .. well not two hardware firewalls.
[11:31] (CometBaby) But I have a hardware and a software firewall.
[11:31] (Veep) your professor didnt talk to the sales dept
[11:31] (gopp) CometBaby do you know about the snake attack
[11:31] (CometBaby) no
[11:31] (gopp) CometBaby where both hardware and software will negate each other
[11:31] (CometBaby) no
[11:31] (gopp) my professor said something like that
[11:31] (gopp) but I forget what he ment
[11:31] (gopp) he said that why it bad to have two firewalls
[11:31] (CometBaby) I'm not worries about it gopp .. I don't open up attachments that I am not expecting.
[11:32] (Veep) im sure he is smart, but there is no right and wrong with firewalls, security, etc... it changes daily
[11:32] (rondd) gopp that is silly
[11:32] (rondd) think about it
[11:32] (gopp) no
[11:32] (Nockian) gopp: i reboot ATM machines and parking garage ticket payment machines all the time, the majority of them run OS/2 and Windows 95
[11:32] (gopp) I am explaing it wrong
[11:32] (rondd) things happen in sequence
[11:32] (gopp) Nockian I was at lowes
[11:32] (gopp) and the ticket machine
[11:33] (gopp) to buy movies tickets via cc
[11:33] (rondd) the two firewalls cannot negate each other
[11:33] (Nockian) and by reboot, i mean unplug the power cord from the wall and plug it back in :)
[11:33] (gopp) was running NT
[11:33] (gopp) Nockian I had desktop access to NT
[11:33] (gopp) becuase thier app crashed
[11:33] (Nockian) hah
[11:33] (Al3xK3ato) Hello everybody!!!
[11:33] (gopp) and I was able to run network neghiboorhood
[11:33] (gopp) a machine that controls cc transcation for movie tickets
[11:33] (gopp) I didn't spend much time becuase my bothe rin law said
[11:33] (gopp) come on the movie
[11:33] (gopp) but I saw like 20 shares or more
[11:35] (Al3xK3ato) Why did France bomb the twin towers?
[11:35] (gopp) Nockian so what do you after you reboot them
[11:35] (gopp) :)
[11:35] (Nockian) gopp: watch them post bios and boot up
[11:35] (gopp) ahh
[11:36] (Al3xK3ato) I thought France was friendly to the US?
[11:36] (DeDannan) Al3xK3ato, they were serving red wine with fish at Windows on the World
[11:37] (Al3xK3ato) huh?
[11:37] (ezshock) gopp: What are you going to school for?
[11:37] (Nockian) have you guys ever heard of Dick and Rick Hoyt? that Dad has got to be one of the best people in the world, honestly - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4B-r8KJhlE
[11:38] (TheTailor) utoh
[11:38] (TheTailor) HE is here
[11:38] (Al3xK3ato) My history teacher said to write a report about 9/11, and I can't figure out why France did it
[11:38] (TomM--) heh
[11:38] (Rebec) hey tommy
[11:38] (TomM--) hi Rebec!!! long time no see...
[11:38] (panini) Al3xK3ato, not since a century or so
[11:38] (yawg) Al3xK3ato: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
[11:39] (yawg) Al3xK3ato: that'll give you some ideas
[11:39] (DeDannan) Al3xK3ato, I already told you why
[11:39] (yawg) france ) USA
[11:39] (Chrono-Z) DeDannan hey that fish could have been a smokey salmon!
[11:40] (TomM--) liberal family values...I was talking to my hooker...my wife called...I put the hooker on hold...no thats family values...!! :)
[11:40] (DeDannan) Chrono-Z, then you serve single malt scotch, sillyboi!
[11:40] (vloxy) hey now, watch the lox
[11:40] (Chrono-Z) with capers and a cream sauce to boot!
[11:40] (Al3xK3ato) I don't have the bandwidth to watch that movie
[11:41] (Chrono-Z) Anyways where did you get this crazy idea about France and 9/11 Al3xK3ato?
[11:41] (Veep) got fios here, bandwith 5mbps down / 2mbps up right to the house
[11:41] (DeDannan) TomM--, is that a David Vitter transcript? :)
[11:41] (TomM--) no question in my mind the French were involved....
[11:41] (Veep) if i had the cash id get the 50/10mbps plan
[11:41] (TomM--) evil French bastards...
[11:42] (Chrono-Z) Either way I supposed you could tie it in with lance armstrong, the tour de france is on so atleast you can make it currently relevent.
[11:42] (Chrono-Z) somehow...
[11:42] (DeDannan) cheeze eatin surrender monkies!
[11:42] (AlexKeato) Sorry, got disconnected.
[11:42] (vloxy) man
[11:42] (Chrono-Z) It happens.
[11:42] (rondd) The Wi-Fi connection on Apple's recently released iPhone seems to be the source of a big headache for network administrators at Duke. The built-in 802.11b/g adapters on several iPhones periodically flood sections of the school's wireless LAN with MAC address requests, temporarily knocking out anywhere from a dozen to 30 wireless access points at a time.
[11:42] (TomM--) Chrono...never made that connection...but darn it you could be right....Armstrong.......
[11:42] (AlexKeato) The reason that I thought France was behind 9/11 was because afterwards all the stuff changed from "French" to "Freedom"
[11:43] (AlexKeato) Like "Freedom fries"
[11:43] (DeDannan) freedom toast
[11:43] (AlexKeato) yeah
[11:43] (DeDannan) freedom ticklers
[11:43] (vloxy) idiots
[11:43] (panini) yawg, you're right, that movie explains everything
[11:43] (TomM--) vloxy freedom idiots?
[11:43] (yawg) did you watch it?
[11:43] (vloxy) no, wasting your time on this topic makes you an idiot
[11:44] (DeDannan) did David Vitter use a freedom tickler when he visited his hooker?
[11:44] (Veep) daily show is so funny. he doesnt even have to try to be funny these past 2 years. the administration is providing all the material needed. Like the Dick Cheney "Go fuck yourself" guess he is to busy to do it himself
[11:44] (Rebec) DeDannan ask him
[11:44] (AlexKeato) If France wasn't behind 9/11, who was?
[11:44] (Rebec) I can't believe how his wife is handling it
[11:44] (AlexKeato) I need to correct my essay
[11:44] (DeDannan) Rebec, he won't return my calls
[11:44] (yawg) Al3xK3ato: the federal reserve bank
[11:44] (Rebec) DeDannan email him
[11:44] (DeDannan) AlexKeato, San Marino
[11:44] (Chrono-Z) 2 years? You mean they tried to be funny before?
[11:44] (TomM--) Veep Ive been saying that for weeks...u dont have to make fun of these people, they do it to themselves.
[11:44] (AlexKeato) Who is San Marino?
[11:45] (Veep) well the last 2 years have been even funnier
[11:45] (yawg) oops
[11:45] (DeDannan) it ain't a who
[11:45] (yawg) AlexKeato: the federal reserve bank was behind it possibly
[11:45] (KoBushi) the Towliban are named after thier refusal to take a shower, therefor towels are banned
[11:45] (DeDannan) KoBushi, I thought it was because they hated that South Park character...
[11:45] (ezshock) The Daily Show is moronic
[11:45] (DeDannan) "towlie"
[11:45] (KoBushi) DeDannan perhaps
[11:45] (yawg) yeah the colbert report is way better
[11:46] (TomM--) ez WHYS that?
[11:46] (AlexKeato) What did the Federal Reserve Bank do?
[11:46] (yawg) the daily show lost it's awesomeness when colbert got his own show
[11:46] (AlexKeato) Did they fund the towliban?
[11:46] (yawg) AlexKeato: yeah they funded the attack
[11:46] (yawg) AlexKeato: and intentionally allowed it to happen
[11:46] (DeDannan) Al3xK3ato, they wrote checks their ass couldn't cash
[11:46] (TomM--) yes they did....at one time...
[11:46] (ezshock) Stewart is a sack of crap with very bad writers. Stewart by himself is talentless, so he relies on the writers
[11:46] (ezshock) Which fail as well
[11:46] (yawg) AlexKeato: it's one of many false flag opperations the bankers have funded to cause the public to accept freedom restricting laws
[11:46] (Chrono-Z) I never found it funny in enough quanity to watch it on a regular basis.
[11:46] (yawg) AlexKeato: and also to give justification for war
[11:47] (Chrono-Z) A few chuckles here and there, but it's really the same handful of jokes over and over again.
[11:47] (ezshock) But, even if you *do* find the writers to be funny ... take away the writers and Stewart is just a no talent hack with crazy expressions and long pause puns
[11:47] (Chrono-Z) It's like watching a televised version of fark.com headlines.
[11:47] (AlexKeato) Does this have anything to do with that attack on the Federal Resrve Bank, like in that movie?
[11:47] (Veep) hehe
[11:47] (vloxy) man
[11:47] (AlexKeato) I can't remember which movie it was
[11:47] (TomM--) Stuart has spawned some of the best comedic talent in years....you have no idea what genius is
[11:47] (yawg) AlexKeato: the federal reserve was attacked?
[11:47] (AlexKeato) I think it was Die Hard 2
[11:47] (DeDannan) don't forget the Freemason/Illuminati/SpaceAlien/7-11 Clerks cabal...
[11:47] (yawg) AlexKeato: oh, that's fiction
[11:48] (vloxy) hermeneutic circle nonsense continues, i wish I never learned that word
[11:48] (DeDannan) we do too
[11:48] (AlexKeato) Why were they allowed to release the movie if it never happened?
[11:48] (ezshock) Why do you think Stewart has been stuck behind TV while TWO who were on the show Cobert & Corell have gone on to do movies, and mild successful TV
[11:48] (gopp) stewart is not even funny
[11:48] (ezshock) It really says something when your *fake* anchors are passing you in "jobs" @ Hollywood
[11:49] (gopp) allhe does is bash bush
[11:49] (TomM--) ezshock errrr and why is that??? oh mighty entertainment guru?
[11:49] (gopp) he bashes bush and you think it funny
[11:49] (gopp) john is not even funny
[11:49] (Chrono-Z) Corell really does bring the funny on The Office.
[11:49] (ezshock) TomM--: Hey, I call it like I see it
[11:49] (Chrono-Z) That show is just errily familar to places i've worked.
[11:49] (yawg) ezshock: stewart has been in movies...
[11:49] (ezshock) What was the most recent?
[11:49] (Chrono-Z) And to anyone else who has ever worked in a mindless cube farm.
[11:49] (ezshock) 8 years ago?
[11:49] (ezshock) 10?
[11:49] (yawg) not sure but he was in "half baked"
[11:49] (AlexKeato) Wasn't Jon Stewart in that Michael Moore movie?
[11:49] (TomM--) yawg...long before corell...and I dont think Colbert has yet...
[11:50] (yawg) well i (3 colbert
[11:50] (yawg) he is awesome
[11:50] (yawg) stewart is a bit of a pussy
[11:50] (vloxy) yahoo picks had a funny cube farm chick
[11:50] (yawg) i saw him in "the aristocrats" getting makeup put on
[11:50] (ezshock) The last movie Stewart did was "Dogma"
[11:50] (Chrono-Z) He was in Dogma?
[11:50] (Chrono-Z) I can't even recall him in it.
[11:50] (ezshock) I think so
[11:50] (Rebec) heh dogma was great
[11:50] (ezshock) He was in "Half Baked" that's true
[11:50] (Rebec) chrono look it up at imdb.com it'll list the whole cast
[11:50] (Veep) Hate the daily show if you will but gotta remember, the material has nothing to do with john stewart, these are things people really did! and are running our country
[11:51] (yawg) ezshock: the most recent i know he was in is "the aristocrats" which i'm pretty sure came out after dogma
[11:51] (Chrono-Z) I loved that movie before they aired it on comedy central 54327242 times one year.
[11:51] (Chrono-Z) Drove me nuts.
[11:51] (ezshock) yawg: How many years ago was that?
[11:51] (yawg) not sure
[11:51] (yawg) but i would guess some time after 2000 and i'm pretty sure dogma is pre 2000
[11:51] (ezshock) The point I was making was, ALL he has is The Daily Show
[11:51] (yawg) so what?
[11:51] (ezshock) Without it, he's out of work
[11:51] (yawg) what point is that?
[11:51] (yawg) how is that about politics?
[11:52] (DeDannan) and ALL Johnny Carson had was the Tonight Show...
[11:52] (ezshock) It's not =D
[11:52] (TomM--) why dont the conservatives come up with a comedy show to bash libs? sorry I forgot they got no sense of humor...
[11:52] (yawg) you are just uselessly attacking stewart to no end
[11:52] (ezshock) But, we happened to be discussing TV
[11:52] (vloxy) www.cubenews1.com
[11:52] (ezshock) So giving an opinion is "attacking?"
[11:52] (ezshock) Nice =D
[11:52] (TomM--) and they got no Bush....which is central to any comedy!!
[11:52] (Chrono-Z) TomM-- I think fox news tried that.
[11:52] (Chrono-Z) It was terrible.
[11:52] (Rebec) ez depends do I agree with your opinion?
[11:52] (ezshock) I can see where you lie on the "pansy" scale
[11:52] (DeDannan) TomM--, well...they did TRY...with that "half hour news hour" on FOXNoise...but jayzus its awful
[11:52] (yawg) yeah the real talking heads can't do comedy
[11:52] (yawg) they are shitty people
[11:53] (Chrono-Z) That red eye show they do isn't too terrible.
[11:53] (Rebec) yawg lol I want to have my own talk show where we bash the talking heads!
[11:53] (Chrono-Z) Has it's few chuckles.
[11:53] (ezshock) Are you kidding?
[11:53] (Rebec) ez yes of course I am kidding :) relax
[11:53] (ezshock) Red Eye???
[11:53] (ezshock) Come on!
[11:53] (vloxy) red eye is a wanna be 4chan
[11:53] (Veep) you dont know dick!
[11:53] (Veep) hehe
[11:53] (TomM--) Rebec...great idea...the material is endless with this idiots...
[11:53] (DeDannan) bush knows dick
[11:53] (ezshock) I watched about 10 min. of that show last night
[11:53] (DeDannan) bush likes dick
[11:53] (Veep) i dont even think bush knows dick
[11:53] (yawg) fox news is good for a laugh
[11:53] (ezshock) I said, "WTF is this, and turn it off"
[11:54] (yawg) unnintentional comedy
[11:54] (Chrono-Z) Yeah a few chuckles, like the daily show, a few laughs but not enough to watch it on a regular basis.
[11:54] (ezshock) yawg: So is the rest of media
[11:54] (Rebec) Tom you trollop you can be a guest
[11:54] (ezshock) They're all a joke
[11:54] (Chrono-Z) Actually nancy grace is hilarious to watch when i'm all goofed out on my painkillers and muscle relaxers.
[11:54] (TomM--) Rebec..dont call me a trollop...I have family values....
[11:54] (DeDannan) i think dick likes dick better than dick likes bush
[11:54] (Chrono-Z) all prescription of course.
[11:54] (Rebec) Tom right you're a strumpette
[11:54] (TheTailor) TomM-- is not a trollop! He's a slut, lets keep this correct.
[11:54] (TomM--) lol
[11:55] (ezshock) Fox News: Joke CNN: Joke CNBC: Joke CBS: Joke NBC: Joke ABC: Joke PBS: Joke
[11:55] (ezshock) MSNBC: Still on the air? Why?
[11:55] (Chrono-Z) I liked Red Eye when they had those two comedians Frangelina or something like that.
[11:55] (TomM--) see what I have to put up with? a man tries to straighten out his life and they pull him back....
[11:55] (yawg) i flipped off a cop while biking today and he tried to have me think it was illegal, it probably wasn't as he didn't ticket or arrest me, he did threaten me before driving off. pigs are such shitheads
[11:55] (Veep) seiously when our vice president says "go fuck yourself" to a congressman in session. I want to see that on the news. No one but daily show would touch that
[11:55] (Chrono-Z) One of those VH1 staple comedians.
[11:55] (DeDannan) ezshock, so where do you get your news? stileproject.com?
[11:55] (ezshock) I don't understand how with ratings in the toilet that MSNBC still is able to stay on the air
[11:55] (Chrono-Z) Oh wow stileproject.com is still around?
[11:56] (vloxy) yawg: you have the right to remain silent
[11:56] (Veep) thats just not right
[11:56] (TWThomas) ezshoke : you get your news from a CB ?
[11:56] (ezshock) DeDannan: I read, you should try it once and awhile
[11:56] (vloxy) yawg: why even force an issue?
[11:56] (ezshock) You might find it fun!
[11:56] (yawg) i hate pigs
[11:56] (yawg) i should have told him that
[11:56] (Chrono-Z) ezshock they have those cool inside the prison shows late at night.
[11:56] (yawg) he asked if i had a problem with cops
[11:56] (TomM--) They need the IMan back....his firing was bogus and they are paying for it.
[11:56] (Chrono-Z) that's my guess.
[11:56] (ezshock) I think Americans should try and read more, they don't know what they're missing! =D
[11:56] (DeDannan) ezshock, High Times doesn't count :)
[11:56] (vloxy) if you hate pigs, you should run for mayor
[11:56] (Rebec) ez yeah I agree I read a lot
[11:56] (yawg) yeah right
[11:56] (vloxy) then you can cut their pay
[11:56] (ezshock) Rebec: Good!
[11:56] (Veep) i read. irc is all text
[11:56] (Rebec) ez :)
[11:57] (yawg) yeah and then they can pull me over and plant evidence to get me fired
[11:57] (Rebec) ez where are you from?
[11:57] (yawg) pigs are the lowest of the scum
[11:57] (vloxy) paranoid
[11:57] (ezshock) Rebec: The U.S.
[11:57] (vloxy) next
[11:57] (Chrono-Z) I should read more, but it seems like the book market is mostly filled with stupid self help or inspirational books.
[11:57] (yawg) timothy leary had weed planted on him
[11:57] (Rebec) ez lol...yeah so am I
[11:57] (TomM--) yawg but but where would we be without them?
[11:57] (yawg) for speaking out against establishment
[11:57] (Chrono-Z) Celebrity cook books.
[11:57] (yawg) he was arrested and jailed
[11:57] (ezshock) I am big on reading,
[11:57] (yawg) TomM--: we would be stronger people
[11:57] (yawg) TomM--: who didn't depend on others for protection
[11:57] (redfish) ezshock liked craig kilborn
[11:58] (yawg) don't feed me that crap about us needing cops
[11:58] (TomM--) Im into mystery novels now....Im all done with historical shit...noone tells the truth.
[11:58] (Chrono-Z) Aside from Alton Brown cook books, they transcend the very concept of a cook book.
[11:58] (DeDannan) redfish, a lot :)
[11:58] (Veep) i feel there is nothing i can do, so things like the daily show at least add some humor
[11:58] (redfish) he liked his hair
[11:58] (Rebec) ez I am too, I love to read
[11:58] (Rebec) and write too
[11:58] (ezshock) Oh yea?
[11:58] (ezshock) Not bad
[11:58] (vloxy) don't snitch seems to resonate with you, yawg?
[11:58] (yawg) huh?
[11:58] (yawg) i wouldn't have a problem if cops were an "on call" service
[11:59] (yawg) call when you need help and they come
[11:59] (yawg) but no, they troll around looking for crime
[11:59] (ezshock) Rebec: I think more people should go back to reading their news then watching the boob tube and the boobs on them
[11:59] (DeDannan) TomM--, ever read any James Ellroy?
[11:59] (ezshock) Rebec: Americans are putting too much stock into those boobs
[11:59] (TomM--) I do Patterson, and Cornwell, and King. recreational reading.....keeps my mind off Bush.
[11:59] (yawg) and in my town there isn't any crime, so they hassle pot heads
[11:59] (vloxy) i prefer a self-respecting society that would one day not need laws
[11:59] (Rebec) ez yeah I know, I agree...people just take what they say. I heard some asshole talking about Iran and this reporter had to correct him, he was just regurgitating a sound bite
[11:59] (Chrono-Z) Cornwell is great!
[11:59] (redfish) poor yawg
[11:59] (ezshock) TomM--: Nypho eh?
[12:00] (vloxy) i call it the free adaptive society platform
[12:00] (Chrono-Z) He have a row on our bookshelf dedicated to her. :)
[12:00] (TomM--) DeDannan no...writes mysteries?
[12:00] (Chrono-Z) I always wanted her to hook up with sgt marino.
[12:00] (DeDannan) TomM--, yep...mostly set in LA during the 40's and 50s
[12:00] (yawg) it is possible to live without laws, only associate with those you trust, and be prepared to fight off those you don't
[12:00] (Chrono-Z) Haven't read the newer books, but i doubt she ever will.
[12:00] (ezshock) Ok, well im off
[12:00] (TomM--) DeDannan really...Ill look for him.....
[12:01] (vloxy) death comes easy then
[12:01] (DeDannan) TomM--, The Black Dahlia...The Big Nowhere..LA Confidential..White Jazz
[12:01] (vloxy) might as well die
[12:01] (vloxy) fuck it
[12:01] (DeDannan) and my personal fave...American Tabloid...
[12:01] (yawg) death is not so bad
[12:01] (yawg) don't fall for that crap about trying to live forever
[12:01] (yawg) we already *are* eternal
[12:01] (redfish) yawg is so wise
[12:01] (DeDannan) the force is strong with yawg
[12:01] (yawg) increasing life expectance just increases the number of years you can work, it only benefits the rich
[12:02] (yawg) a short quality life is better than a long life
[12:02] (TomM--) DeDannan oh shit...I read the Black Dahlia...forgot the authors name....a little jumbled for me...I like my novels to be easy reads....big letters, little words....:))
[12:02] (yawg) and in death you return to the universe
[12:02] (Chrono-Z) And suck up medicare with expensive endlife treatment!
[12:02] (DeDannan) lol
[12:02] (yawg) and start over anew
[12:02] (vloxy) goddamn circle is back
[12:02] (DeDannan) TomM--, well..at least check out American Tabloid..think you'd like it
[12:03] (vloxy) yawg: how do you propose a hermeneutic breakout?
[12:03] (redfish) yawg is doomed to be forever reincarnated as a poor person exploited by the rich
[12:03] (DeDannan) ah well..time to flee...cheers kids
[12:03] (yawg) redfish: we all are
[12:03] (yawg) redfish: but only if we choose to be
[12:03] (Rebec) redfish I don't plan to reincarnate ;)
[12:04] (TomM--) DeDannan I will.....I have all of James Pattersons books, and I am a big fan of Patricia Cornwell...Stephen King is the man of course, but he is starting to think hes Hemmingway....:)
[12:04] (vloxy) 2 scenarios of the circle: 1. constant thought and peaceful bliss, 2. Chaotic indulgence and violence
[12:05] (redfish) rebec i couldnt reincarnate anyway, because i dont have a soul
[12:05] (Rebec) redfish really? how so?
[12:05] (Rebec) vloxy yeah I know I lived that in my marriage
[12:05] (yawg) reincarnation works because we are all the same entity so when the body you are currently looking through dies, you still exist in all the other bodies
[12:05] (TomM--) Rebec are you going to die?
[12:05] (Rebec) thank God I am out with my life
[12:05] (Rebec) Tom someday
[12:05] (Rebec) Tom someday we will all die
[12:05] (redfish) well im just a collection of soulless matter, im not like you rebec
[12:05] (vloxy) :)
[12:05] (yawg) you do have a soul!
[12:05] (Rebec) redfish you're not like me? why not?
[12:05] (TomM--) oh....not like in the next few days? :)
[12:06] (vloxy) redfish: so we should be taking you seriously for what reason?
[12:06] (redfish) rebec its an illusion im not even conscious like you are im just an automatous being
[12:06] (vloxy) he is category 2
[12:06] (vloxy) violent
[12:06] (Rebec) redfish ah
[12:06] (Rebec) Tom no, I think I am going to survive for a while
[12:07] (TomM--) Rebec oh good...just wondered u were talking about reincarnation...
[12:07] (vloxy) a souless being is like a rock
[12:07] (yawg) the rock too has a soul
[12:07] (vloxy) damn it
[12:07] (redfish) its called the rock-soul
[12:08] (vloxy) i mess it up again
[12:08] (Rebec) Tom well someone else brought it up. Anyway it's true my divorce is rough but I think I'll make it
[12:08] (yawg) the rock isn't aware of itself tho
[12:08] (Rebec) yawg that's true of some people though
[12:08] (vloxy) i was having more luck with my 2 categories
[12:08] (TomM--) Im not gonna live much longer...and I have decided I will come back and haunt this channel...yep it will be the only haunted channel on irc....with its own ghost!
[12:08] (yawg) the rock can look at itself through your eyes, however
[12:08] (yawg) your soul is the rock's soul
[12:09] (Oliphant) oh did N. Korea finally ge the trade deal they wanted?
[12:09] (Rebec) Oliphant I guess
[12:09] (vloxy) ipods on their way?
[12:10] (Oliphant) thats all they ever wanted... they wanted what japan and S.Korea had... and now china has as well...access to the american consumer
[12:10] (TomM--) the N Koreans always do...the difference is...the Republicans are whining about how Clinton gave away the ranch....cuz Bush gave away the State!
[12:11] (Oliphant) exactly
[12:12] (Oliphant) gee the republicans inverting stuff again?...wow, that's a switch... imagine the republicans ever being the pot that called the kettle black...NAHHHH,
[12:12] (TomM--) wawwwww Clinton caved in the the North Koreans....errrrrrr ummmmm Bush was firm....LOL
[12:12] (vloxy) you guys continue to argue free adaptive politics
[12:12] (vloxy) each party freely adapts to move toward momentum
[12:12] (Oliphant) hahaha
[12:12] (TomM--) adaptive politics?
[12:12] (vloxy) nothing more
[12:13] (Oliphant) yeah I like that...adaptive
[12:13] (Rebec) adapt or perish
[12:13] (Oliphant) you WILL be assimilated
[12:13] (vloxy) The Free Adaptive Society Party or F.AD.S. for short
[12:13] (yawg) the senate did the worst caving, they never should have signed that funding bill.
[12:13] (Oliphant) resistance is friggin FUTILE
[12:13] (vloxy) yes the pun is intended
[12:13] (TomM--) "Those Asians Devils" would have never pushed a Republican President around like that!!! ROFL
[12:14] (vloxy) by the way it is not assimilation
[12:14] (vloxy) assimilation does not allow adaptive tendencies
[12:14] (gopp) bush was firm
[12:14] (gopp) on north korea
[12:14] (gopp) thus they shut down thier
[12:14] (vloxy) freely adapting is more powerful than assimilation
[12:15] (yawg) i'd rather have a president that focused more on its own country, fix up all the fucking corruption
[12:15] (Oliphant) I'm starting to hear about polls that have numbers pushing , and over 50% of americans want bush/cheaney impeached
[12:15] (TomM--) only another eighteen months and we can again be a Republic....
[12:15] (Oliphant) ...those subpoenas are going to have some traction in the media
[12:15] (Oliphant) have they jailed meirs for contempt yet?
[12:16] (rondd) can you show some of those polls oliphant ?
[12:16] (vloxy) modern techonological goverments can adapt on a whim
[12:16] (TomM--) what is this latest bullshit about Pat Tilman...the Administration is claiming that his death and documents relating to it are Executive Privelege?
[12:16] (Oliphant) doo, uhh...they are all over the news...if you can't find them, you aren't looking
[12:16] (vloxy) they have the ability to transform themselves to move quickly toward momentum
[12:16] (gopp) TomM-- why do you hate bush so much
[12:16] (vloxy) a war for example is no longer won or lost
[12:17] (vloxy) it is a matter of what is the definition of acheived objective
[12:17] (Oliphant) vloxy, yeah especially when the republicans tergiversate
[12:17] (TomM--) u see whats happening here...the political arm of the Bush boys used the boys death and are going to be embarassed if documents are exposed showing that.
[12:17] (gopp) TomM-- Two young female Interns meet for lunch at a restaurant near
[12:17] (gopp) the White House.
[12:17] (vloxy) precisely
[12:17] (Oliphant) ...which they do quite often
[12:17] (gopp) TomM-- Two young female Interns meet for lunch at a restaurant near
[12:17] (gopp) the White House.
[12:17] (gopp) One girl says to the other one,"Hey, I just heard that the
[12:17] (gopp) White House got a new computer!
[12:17] (Chrono-Z) Oliphant at this point is there even any point in even talking about impeachment. Before anyone would actually get the balls to do it muchless get proceedings going he would be out of office anyways.
[12:17] (gopp) The other girl says, "Really? What kind?"
[12:17] (Chrono-Z) It's just silly and non-constructive.
[12:17] (gopp) The first girl says, "All I know is, it's got a 6 1/2 inch
[12:17] (gopp) hard drive and no memory!"
[12:17] (gopp) heheheheh
[12:18] (TomM--) gopp ROFL
[12:19] (gopp) check this one out
[12:19] (gopp) While the Pope was in St. Louis he decided to grant absolution to three sinners. The first person to come up was Richard Nixon.
[12:19] (Oliphant) Chrono, yes, of course...it's a mtter of principle... Bush/Cheaney are going to be impeached...and that will spell the end of the republican party (it already has and they know it, thats why they've been pushing everything as far right as they can using every means they can)
[12:19] (gopp) The Pope asked, "What is your sin?"
[12:19] (rondd) so its one poll oliphant ?
[12:19] (rondd) American Research Group ?
[12:19] (gopp) "I hired people to break into the Watergate hotel." The Pope replied, "Kneel down. I'll bless you and grant you absolution."
[12:19] (TomM--) Do any of your Conservatives have an answer as to why the death of an American soldier would fall under Executive Privledge?
[12:19] (gopp) TomM-- becuase he was a pro footballer
[12:19] (gopp) TomM-- thier many reason
[12:19] (gopp) TomM-- who cares
[12:19] (gopp) TomM-- why do you make such a big deal
[12:19] (gopp) out of nothing
[12:19] (TomM--) I care...I wonder why?
[12:19] (rondd) so its one poll oliphant ?
[12:20] (gopp) TomM-- why
[12:20] (Oliphant) the republicans have been going the way of the whigs for the last 20 years...well over 30 years, ever since nixon, really
[12:20] (gopp) TomM-- you seem to bash bush
[12:20] (gopp) TomM-- some big anger towards bush
[12:20] (Chrono-Z) I think that is his point, it's not a big deal so why is it being put under executive privledge.
[12:20] (rondd) Oliphant ?
[12:20] (rondd) One Poll ?
[12:20] (Oliphant) I'm actually old enough to remeber the nixon hearings
[12:20] (gopp) the only people who care are liberal Chrono-Z
[12:21] (gopp) why is it that the only people who are making a big deal already hate bush
[12:21] (Oliphant) rondd, you're telling me yopu can't find one?
[12:21] (Oliphant) hahaha
[12:21] (Chrono-Z) There may be some truth to that. Personally I don't care either.
[12:21] (rondd) Oliphant no I asked a question
[12:21] (TomM--) gopp How bash...I just asked...why Exec Priv over the death of a soldier.....what are they hiding...and why? Is that bashing? Is that asking too much?
[12:21] (Oliphant) jesus you can't even glance at the news without seeing them
[12:21] (gopp) TomM-- why do you hate silly question
[12:21] (Chrono-Z) It's a minor issue in the face of more important ones.
[12:21] (rondd) one poll does not equal a ground swell dumb ass
[12:21] (gopp) to make bush look bad
[12:21] (gopp) TomM-- like we knew why bush does stuff
[12:21] (Oliphant) your skillz are lacking young grasshopper
[12:22] (rondd) back to more meaningful things than worrying about a silly impeachment
[12:22] (Oliphant) ...I mean thats too obvious a strawman attack...even a middle schooler would have recognized that
[12:22] (rondd) keep hoping oliphant all your dreams may come true
[12:22] (TomM--) gopp I dont hate Bush....he disgusts me....hes a comic skit in action every day....the horror is, hes running our nation
[12:22] (Oliphant) impeachment is going to happen...don't take my word for it...just sit back with tyour popcorn and watch
[12:22] (Chrono-Z) I don't forsee any impeachment happening though even if it is a matter of principle. They just don't have the balls to do it I don't think.
[12:23] (Oliphant) how much more crap you expect him to get away with
[12:23] (Chrono-Z) Honestly? A fair bit.
[12:23] (TomM--) Oliphant not enough time...he will escape and his historians will twist history....but anyone with an once of gray matter will know he was a disaster...
[12:23] (Chrono-Z) TomM-- pretty much.
[12:24] (rondd) Translation: The trial occurs in the Senate, but requires a two-thirds vote to convict. For Cheney to be removed from office, all of the Democrats plus one third of the Republican senators would have to agree to remove him from office. One is never supposed to say "never," but this is unlikely. No Democratic senator voted for any of the articles of impeachment against Clinton.
[12:24] (rondd) I think there are 17 senators on board so far ??
[12:24] (rondd) lol
[12:24] (Oliphant) talk about 'adaptive'...what was that crap about the VP not being part of the exec branch so he doesn't have to obey bushes order on intel reporting
[12:24] (Chrono-Z) They are too busy with non-binding resolutions to move to impeachment hearings.
[12:24] (Oliphant) hahaha...der bunker
[12:25] (Oliphant) TomM, plenty of time...and the republicans don't have a viable candidate for '08 anyway, so there's nothing to worry about
[12:25] (Oliphant) time to put a final chapter on the whole friggin corrupt republican party
[12:26] (Chrono-Z) Heh reminds me of that fark headline Surging nearly 10% in the polls since March, None of the Above is now the clear front-runner in the GOP presidential primary race
[12:26] (Chrono-Z) Of course it's foolish to believe that the democratic party isn't just as corrupt.
[12:26] (Oliphant) the democrats will become the conservative party and the greens will become the liberal party...it's been moving this way ever since nixon
[12:27] (Oliphant) every time the repubs get control, they over do it on the 'ideals' thing and screw up the federal budget (by overspending)
[12:28] (Chrono-Z) I don't know, maybe you are right. I forsee the gop being around atleast until the boomers die out.
[12:28] (CometBaby) Oliphant .. not everytime. But this time .. yes.
[12:28] (Chrono-Z) And I don't mean that as an insult to anyone out there.
[12:28] (CometBaby) The left doesn't really mind overspending one bit. They just don't agree with what the overspending is on.
[12:28] (rondd) the democrats are becoming conservative ?????
[12:29] (LSDWash) Democrats becoming conservative? that's a laugh
[12:29] (rondd) this guy is on drugs
[12:29] (CometBaby) nope .. the first thing they will do is raise taxes. That's their very favorite.
[12:29] (Oliphant) cometbaby, yeah this time is much worse, Bush politicized the courts in an unprecedented way...starting with the 2000 election
[12:29] (CometBaby) then they will continue the overspending .. just on entitlements.
[12:29] (gopp) JanetB have you listen to The Catholic Channel The Catholic Channel on sirius
[12:29] (Oliphant) rehnquist had no business halting those recounts...there was no case in front of him
[12:29] (Chrono-Z) Then again it is interesting to see how fast young people change their poltical opinions as soon as they get old enough to really get hurt when seeing their FICA withholdings.
[12:30] (TomM--) see what the Repubs did that puts them in such a precarious position is to get attached at the hip to the Christian right. You can combine God and Politics unless your willing to become a monk...and obviously they didnt make that commitment....Gingrich boffing his aide, Livingstone....seeya, Foley, and now the family values hero for weeziana!! Dems never did that...Kennedy blatantly misbehaved....but never preached to the mass
[12:31] (Oliphant) CometBaby, Clinton got government into the black (quite a ways in fact) by simply taxing stock market speculation...no republican since...(?) has ever balanced the budget, let alone simply reducing the deficiet...all this crap about fiscal conservatism is simply propaganda to cover their pork measures
[12:32] (CometBaby) Oliphant .. no, he didn't. He was the president and he had a right to select whomever he wanted. The SC has become extremely politicized yes .. but I would point at Ruth Bader Ginsburg
[12:32] (TomM--) CometBaby what entitlements would you cut?
[12:32] (Oliphant) why aren't thos ekids taught the marginal benefits of those FICA withholdings... oh no, tell them the government is staling their money
[12:32] (Oliphant) waaa waaa waaaa
[12:32] (Chrono-Z) Corn subsidys.
[12:33] (Oliphant) oh boy, are we going to hear the crack-whore-with-kids bullshit argument again?
[12:34] (Oliphant) thats pretty tired
[12:34] (TomM--) any politician who talks about cutting SS or medicare....is going to be checking the unemployment pages of his local newspaper...
[12:34] (CometBaby) well .. lets just say clinton was there when the budget finally balanced .. but did he balance it? No.
[12:34] (CometBaby) the budget balanced because Bush Sr broke his no more taxes promise
[12:34] (TomM--) CometBaby but errrr he was their eight years...you give him no credit....he could have spent it no?
[12:34] (Oliphant) yes, there's nothing but crack-whore-mothers-driving-in-cadillacks spending your FICA withholdings...join the libertarian party to roll back all these precedence based laws
[12:34] (Oliphant) HAHAHAHA
[12:35] (TomM--) she will give Clinton no credit...but thats ok....
[12:35] (CometBaby) it was Newt Gingrich and company that were responsible
[12:35] (Chrono-Z) The crackwhore with kids thing that is still mentioned persists because people themselves still see it if they make the mistake to go grocery shopping within a few days or the 15th and 30th.
[12:35] (CometBaby) gingrich rallied the gop to end the deficits in 7 years .. and they did it in 4
[12:35] (TomM--) CometBaby ok...so our deficit is due to??? errrr
[12:36] (Chrono-Z) We were behind a loud beligerant one just last month that proudly proclaimed her 9 children while toting 6 carts of expensive name brand junkfood.
[12:36] (CometBaby) the present deficit is due to a bush congress overspending
[12:36] (TomM--) so the Congress gets credit for the surplus....Im confused....so he gets credit for the deficit?
[12:37] (vloxy) yawn
[12:37] (Oliphant) CometBaby, Clinton legislation turned back on taxation on the staock market that reagan/papa bush rolled back... and thus balanced the budget, even standing his ground with the republican congress to do it...sure, you can try to minimize the accomplishment, but he had yarbles about the budget like no republican has since before WWII
[12:37] (TomM--) CometBaby Newt was indeed a wonder...he accomplished alot, you know, with the wife in the hospital and the babe to take care of...the man should be President...
[12:38] (Oliphant) democrats have been fixing the federal budget after republican 'regimes' for the last 50 years
[12:38] (gopp) wow I am listing to sirius world radio
[12:38] (gopp) Radio Australia
[12:38] (gopp) World Radio Network
[12:38] (Chrono-Z) That coupled with I've never driven past a housing development with a empty parking lot and not surrounded with fast food resturants and payday loan/check cashing services.
[12:38] (Oliphant) the republicans being "fically conservative' is pretty much a joke now
[12:38] (Chrono-Z) So yeah, people do bring those issues up because they see them. It's natural.
[12:39] (Oliphant) fiscally, rather
[12:39] (TomM--) and of course Newt had book deals and stuff to worry about...the man was a wonder the way he handled it all...he left gracefully too!!! rofl
[12:39] (Oliphant) hahah newt
[12:39] (JanetB) well, just got the final inspection on the addition, approved!!!
[12:40] (TomM--) and then they rolled out Livingstone......LOL... how did that work out?
[12:40] (CometBaby) I remember when clinton began his term
[12:40] (CometBaby) the economy was really taking off
[12:41] (TomM--) holds his breath!!
[12:41] (CometBaby) I remember a cartoon .. him speeding down the highway after an 18 wheeler painted with U.S. economy on the side.
[12:41] (Chrono-Z) There is also the interesting issue of making politicans private lives a talking point of political debate while at complaing about how the government is encroaching too deep into people's personal lives.
[12:41] (CometBaby) Clinton speeding behind in a tow truck .. hanging out the window with cables in his hand.
[12:41] (Oliphant) actually it didn' REALLY take off till 95-97
[12:41] (Chrono-Z) I don't know, it's just kind of weird to me.
[12:41] (CometBaby) caption: Slow down. I want to jump start you !!!
[12:41] (Oliphant) cometbaby, that retort had no content to reply to
[12:42] (Oliphant) just unsupported assertions in a weal analogy
[12:42] (CometBaby) when clinton came into office he started his term by proposing a $16 billion "stimulus pkg" that would have given us deficits without end
[12:42] (JanetB) well the libs can not hide the ecomony anymore, the today show, was going on about how.. the stock market is at historic high, unemployment at historic lows, and how pay is rising all the time
[12:42] (CometBaby) a stimulus package we didnt' need.
[12:42] (Oliphant) hahah
[12:42] (CometBaby) the economy was booming
[12:42] (TomM--) what do we have now?
[12:43] (Oliphant) economy down (those dam liberals)...economy up(it's be better if not for those damn liberals)
[12:43] (CometBaby) if not for a republican congress that kept him in line .. the budget never would have ballanced
[12:43] (TomM--) largest deficit in American History....no?
[12:43] (JanetB) and how... tax revenu is comming in hand over fist, and the decifit is going down 5 years faster than they expected
[12:43] (Oliphant) deficeit up(those damn spending liberals!)...deficeit down[only during democratic administrations](we did that before he got to office!)
[12:43] (TheTailor) We have a record new deficit with ever new administration
[12:44] (JanetB) gotta love it when the lib show finally have the admit the economy is great
[12:44] (Oliphant) oh no, we've NEVER seen THIS pattern before
[12:44] (CometBaby) I remember when clinton claimed he cut taxes for 15 million people
[12:44] (CometBaby) hahaha
[12:44] (TomM--) Comet so I agree...Clinton was out of control.....seven years ago...now that the Republicans are in charge; where are we?
[12:44] (CometBaby) NOBODY got a tax cut under clinton
[12:44] (Oliphant) it is the FOX news talking point pattern
[12:44] (JanetB) oh and over 10 million new jobs
[12:44] (Oliphant) have you all rehearsed this morning?
[12:44] (TheTailor) TomM-- is twisting things again!
[12:44] (Libertine) hrm.. none of the candidates have mentioned raising taxes yet, right?
[12:44] (JanetB) Oliphant, this was on the Todyay show NOT fox
[12:44] (Chrono-Z) Oliphant yes, it's similar to how they do the walmart cheer.
[12:44] (Chrono-Z) Thank god we don't have to wear those smocks though.
[12:44] (CometBaby) he ran on the promise of a middle class tax cut .. but he never delivered
[12:44] (Oliphant) yes, tax cuts will balance the budget (no, but they sure get a lot of votes, huh)
[12:45] (TomM--) TheTailor how twist? How does that twist?
[12:45] (Libertine) who cares if they balance the budget, i want tax cuts to CUT the budget.
[12:45] (Libertine) the raise the federal govenrment is so large is because of taxes.
[12:45] (Libertine) why make it bigger?
[12:45] (yaarg) mainly us politics in here then i guess?
[12:45] (JanetB) yes, actually tax cuts do help the budget and have been proven over and over to do so even JFK knew that
[12:45] (CometBaby) Lots of ppl got a tax increase
[12:45] (Libertine) raise/reason
[12:45] * yaarg is british
[12:45] (yaarg) i still have an interest in american politics though ;)
[12:45] (TheTailor) [14:45] (TomM--) largest deficit in American History....no?
[12:45] (Libertine) yaarg: across the pond are we?
[12:46] (TheTailor) You know damn well that happens in almost ALL administrations
[12:46] (yaarg) Libertine: yeah the big one
[12:46] (yaarg) on that little island
[12:46] (CometBaby) people who do not pay taxes .. do not get tax cuts and should not get tax refunds.
[12:46] (TheTailor) TomM--, it's like saying Clinton signed the largest tax hike in history
[12:46] (TheTailor) They are always the largest, the population is bigger
[12:46] (TomM--) Its a simple question...whether you want to give Clinton credit or not, not the point....is the economy stronger today than it was under Clinton? Is there a larger deficit after eight years of Republican control than was under Clinton? Those are simple questions....
[12:46] (Oliphant) hahah...the incresed tax revenue (by reinstating republican rolled-back taxes on securities trading) is what balanced the budget for clinton
[12:47] (TheTailor) "Is the economy *stronger*"
[12:47] (Oliphant) we certainly don't want any of THAT
[12:47] (TheTailor) TomM--, what do you mean by stronger? More durable?
[12:47] (TheTailor) TomM-- is twisting things again!
[12:47] (Oliphant) did I mention that "republican fiscal conservatism' is an oxymoron?
[12:48] (JanetB) yes the economy is much stronger than under clinton and thats provable and yes, the decifit is larger, did clinton have the WTC center totally wiped out? duh? did Clinton go to war, as he SHOULD have, no
[12:48] (TheTailor) Stronger how?
[12:48] (CometBaby) and don't forget hillary's attempt to socialize the health industry
[12:48] (Oliphant) listen to what you just said...the eceonomy is stronger than under clinton
[12:48] (CometBaby) to take over an entire industry
[12:48] (CometBaby) and hand it to the govt
[12:48] (TomM--) TheT how do you twist things...I asked a question...you answer by asking a question...or making some sarcastic comment...its ok if you cant answer....I understand its hard...:)
[12:48] (TheTailor) If a meteor hits the Gulf of Mexico again, will the economy hold up?
[12:48] (Oliphant) hahah I see, so we are doing BETTER than the entire internet bubble
[12:48] (Oliphant) right now
[12:48] (Oliphant) hahahaha
[12:49] (Oliphant) we are recovering from greenspan's crash
[12:49] (Rebec) hi hans
[12:49] (Oliphant) STILL
[12:49] (hans--) Howdy
[12:49] (Libertine) Oliphant: for IT.. right now is much better than during the bubble.
[12:49] (Chrono-Z) welcome back hans--.
[12:49] (Libertine) Oliphant: most IT managers make over 100k now..
[12:49] (TomM--) I wont even answer the child....
[12:50] (hans--) Thank ya chrono ;)
[12:50] (Oliphant) libertine, not in $ spent and jobs, no..it was better 10 years ago, my friend...a LOT better
[12:50] (Oliphant) maybe you weren't around..I was
[12:50] (Metoman) the dollar is really low right now
[12:50] (Metoman) Lower than ten years ago
[12:51] (rondd) I like todays IT economy much better
[12:51] (Metoman) how is that good economy?
[12:51] (rondd) before it was blowing up and everyone was waiting for a bust
[12:51] (rondd) which came
[12:51] (rondd) its now stable and predictable
[12:51] (Libertine) Oli: bah, 10 years ago was wasteful.
[12:51] (Libertine) this time around is much better
[12:51] (Oliphant) yes, thank you Alan Greenspan
[12:51] (Libertine) salaries are as high as they were then, but people are spending smarter
[12:51] (rondd) there were a bunch of bullshit IPO's happenind all the time
[12:52] (rondd) which broke a lot of mutual funds
[12:52] (CometBaby) right now the economy is booming again
[12:52] (Libertine) lots of profitable IT companies now
[12:52] (CometBaby) not only a great economy but low unemployment .. nobody thought that was possible
[12:52] (Libertine) not dotcom dreams.
[12:52] (rondd) so yes todays IT economy is much better
[12:52] (Chrono-Z) Makes me think how much I wish I would have invested in rimm 5ish years ago. *sigh*
[12:52] (CometBaby) clinton only DREAMS he had left office with this economy
[12:52] (CometBaby) but he didn't
[12:52] (Oliphant) keep stimulating an already over-stimulated economy by lowering interest rates...and then when the market sputters and you NEED to stimulate it, the interest rates are too low to drop any more...tell your family and freinds to cash out...then retire
[12:52] (Libertine) i'll take today's market over the hype of 1998
[12:52] (Chrono-Z) hindsight 20/20 yada yada
[12:52] (Oliphant) thank you mr. greenspan
[12:52] (TomM--) lol
[12:52] (CometBaby) the country was entering a recession when he left office
[12:52] (Libertine) Oliphant: um, rates are going up
[12:53] (Libertine) Oliphant: tried to buy a car recently? 7% is a 'great' rate
[12:53] (Oliphant) context man,
[12:53] (Metoman) well, going anywhere in the world you would have less money when the dollar is low
[12:53] (Oliphant) dood,
[12:53] (CometBaby) Oliphant .. things are great. Sorry you can't spin it.
[12:53] (Oliphant) wow, sometimes I feel like I just stepped onto the set of 'Idiocracy'
[12:54] (JanetB) not even the liberal media can spin it any more :)
[12:54] (Libertine) Oliphant: adhoms will get you nowhere, explain how the economy is bad in detail.
[12:54] (Chrono-Z) Ow My Balls!
[12:54] (Chrono-Z) That was a great movie.
[12:54] (CometBaby) Oliphant .. I realize you do not have any good answers .. but rudeness, ad hominems and insults are not going to be tollerated.
[12:54] (Oliphant) CometBaby, with flip flops like that...you could chair the RNC
[12:54] (Libertine) Oliphant: IT Managers making 100-130k in Dallas, TX ... tell me how that is bad..
[12:54] (Oliphant) CometBaby, you've brought new heights in the pot calling the kettle black
[12:55] (CometBaby) Oliphant did you eat an extra bowl of stupid this morning?
[12:55] (rondd) (--- taking bets on how much longer oliphant will last on here
[12:55] (Metoman) how much some dude is making does not mean the economy is good.
[12:55] (Oliphant) ..essentially what you've just accused me of is all you have brought to the converstation
[12:55] (Oliphant) no content at all
[12:55] (Libertine) rondd: i give him.. 5 replies.
[12:55] (CometBaby) I don't know what your problem is .. but I bet it's hard to pronouce
[12:55] (TomM--) I know u guys can come up with these figures so Ill walk in and ask...who is making all the money in this Republican boom economy....Is it the 40-60k group? oh maybe its the 60-80k group? you think? we wont even bring up the 25-35k group....who cares about them....LOL
[12:55] (rondd) its getting closer libertine
[12:55] (Oliphant) libertine is doing ok=economy good
[12:55] (Libertine) thats one..
[12:55] (Metoman) you need health care, and free schools
[12:55] (Libertine) Oliphant: i never said I was doing ok.
[12:56] (Oliphant) there WAS NO economy before Libertine joined the work force...not of any consequence anyway
[12:56] (Libertine) Oliphant: strawman, redherring.
[12:56] (JanetB) people not able to get jobs are now making 30 to 40.. I guess 30 to 40 is not better than 0?
[12:56] (Chrono-Z) I don't think you meant it personally or to all of us with the reference to the mocie Idiocracy, but for myself I can only base things on my own experiance. My wife and I are doing better than we ever have and it keeps getting better every day. If things are bad, then I can't wait for it to get better.
[12:56] (Oliphant) 30-40K will get you a nice rental in the woods
[12:56] (CometBaby) Oliphant why must you resort to ad hominems?
[12:56] (TomM--) lol
[12:56] (CometBaby) can't you debate?
[12:56] (CometBaby) are you all out of one liners?
[12:57] (Oliphant) that was middle class like 30-40 years ago
[12:57] (rondd) same here chrono-z
[12:57] (CometBaby) go back to DailyKos and find some more material
[12:57] (TomM--) what is dailykos?
[12:57] (Chrono-Z) Granted it was a lot of hardwork and sacrifice for a few years, but it's really paid off.
[12:57] (CometBaby) TomM-- devoiced for lameness
[12:57] (rondd) chrono-z I am self employed in IT have been since 1994, gave myself a 40k gross raise this year and I make good money already
[12:57] (Libertine) nice :)
[12:57] (CometBaby) TomM you never seem to have anything to say .. you just hang around and make a damn nuisance of yourself
[12:58] (rondd) have made a lotttt more money under bush than clinton but some of that is my own fault
[12:58] (Libertine) rondd: IT market is WAY better, one good indictator... it's impossible to find good talent.
[12:58] (Libertine) indicator. typo
[12:58] (rondd) exactly libertine
[12:58] (Libertine) recruiters are now begging people to consider job postings again.
[12:58] (cyberfr0g) Governments and governmental agencies also use bonds to raise money. U.S. Treasury Bonds are the most secure investments in the world because the U.S. Government backs them with its “full faith and credit.” ... what happens if the government collapses?
[12:58] (Libertine) complete 180 from the bust.
[12:58] (Rebec) Libertine I haven't had a lot of success in my job search yet, course I am looking in the health care market not the IT one
[12:59] (Libertine) it's so bad, recruiters are cold calling any contact they get for a possible match on an open job req, and hiring managers are taking longer and longer to fill open positions.
[12:59] (Libertine) Rebec: well healthcare is more steady.
[12:59] (Libertine) IT swings..
[12:59] (Rebec) Libertine true
[13:00] (Chrono-Z) I do wonder if a lot of complaints about jobs and wages are related to the sense that people and young people esp. just expect to not have to work their way up in the company anymore.
[13:00] (JanetB) did you finish you RN Rebec?
[13:00] (rondd) I personally like healthcare IT
[13:00] (rondd) :))
[13:00] (Rebec) Janet sadly no I did the MBA in health care management, maybe the RN someday
[13:00] (Oliphant) cometbaby, perhaps you should look up 'ad hom' in the dictionary
[13:00] (rondd) yeah he is gone
[13:01] (rondd) what a stupid rant
[13:01] (rondd) (and rantor)
[13:01] (Chrono-Z) I'm a younger guy and I've known people that expect 50k a year, 7 weeks of vacation and a company car just for getting the BA in business from state college.
[13:01] (JanetB) awww my daughter is finally in her last year
[13:01] (Libertine) hrm.. i dont have crap for vacation
[13:01] (Libertine) but thats typical in the states.
[13:01] (Rebec) Chrono I expect 80-90K now that I have the masters of business administration
[13:02] (CometBaby) TomM-- go sit in the corner with this dirty gym sock in your mouth and think this over.
[13:02] (CometBaby) TomM-- go sit in the corner with this dirty gym sock in your mouth and think this over.
[13:02] (rondd) I was sick on my back for 9 weeks in 2005 + another 4 weeks of vacation. That was a huge eye opener as to how much time I really can take off
[13:02] (Chrono-Z) Rebec I'm not sure how that translates into SC money (heh gotta love dirt cheap cost of living). But 80-90k is upper management wages here.
[13:03] (Rebec) Chrono yes I expect to be upper management now that I have the MBA
[13:03] (Libertine) Chrono: where is here?
[13:03] (Libertine) hrm..
[13:03] (Chrono-Z) Libertine SC.
[13:03] (JanetB) did you just get you MBA?
[13:03] (Libertine) 80-90 for upper?
[13:03] (Rebec) Janet yes in April
[13:04] (JanetB) congrats
[13:04] (Rebec) thanks, too bad it's not helping with the job search process :(
[13:04] (Rebec) but yeah started the divorce in March, got the MBA in April
[13:04] (Chrono-Z) Yeah around there. Granted it's a bit of a mixed bag here.
[13:04] (Rebec) Chrono it seems to be a mixed bag everywhere
[13:05] (Chrono-Z) But it is nice here, 30k alone grants you a pretty nice living.
[13:05] (Libertine) weird..
[13:05] (CometBaby) did anyone happen to grab a whois on oliphant?
[13:05] (Libertine) 30k?
[13:05] (CometBaby) I have his addy but I wanted some addt'l info
[13:05] (Rebec) actually I guess technically I started that in April too
[13:05] (Libertine) d0794b00@208.121.75.0
[13:05] (Chrono-Z) Oliphant was d0794b00@208.121.75.0 * [d0794b00] I (3 EFnet
[13:05] (Libertine) oliphant
[13:05] (Chrono-Z) Oliphant using chat.efnet.org Tue Jul 17 16:03:32 2007
[13:05] (Chrono-Z) Oliphant was d0794b00@208.121.75.0 * [d0794b00] I (3 EFnet
[13:05] (Chrono-Z) Oliphant using chat.efnet.org Tue Jul 17 15:03:25 2007
[13:05] (JanetB) I didn't
[13:06] (CometBaby) cool thanks chrono
[13:06] (Chrono-Z) No prob!
[13:06] (Libertine) aww, i helped
[13:06] (Rebec) Libertine of course you did
[13:06] (Chrono-Z) /whowas comes in handy on occasion when it works right.
[13:06] * Libertine goes to find a bell tower.. and cleans his rifle
[13:06] (Rebec) chrono yeah I was thinking that
[13:06] (Rebec) uh oh why you cleaning the gun?
[13:06] (CometBaby) yeah I was distracted on the www and I thought I had grabbed a whois on him. I knew he was going to be trouble.
[13:06] (Gosseyn) $30k *where* grants you a pretty nice living?
[13:06] (Gosseyn) Zimbabwe?
[13:07] (Rebec) gosseyn lol
[13:07] (Libertine) 30k in Brazil would be nice.
[13:07] (Chrono-Z) Gosseyn south carolina.
[13:07] (Libertine) in fact, most of South America..
[13:07] (Gosseyn) Chrono-Z: in the Appalachian backwoods?
[13:07] (CometBaby) I was curious to see if he had been on any other channels
[13:07] (CometBaby) hey goss :)
[13:07] (Gosseyn) $30k USD in Brazil is certainly decent scratch.
[13:07] (Null_Ptr) reid says they are going to work straight through the night hehe
[13:07] (Chrono-Z) Well seeing how south carolina isn't really in the appalachians aside from a few foothills..
[13:07] (Gosseyn) Given that the average per capita income in Brazil is $9900 USD.
[13:07] (Chrono-Z) no.
[13:07] (Chrono-Z) We live in the state capital in the middle of the state.
[13:08] (Rebec) bye guys
[13:08] (CometBaby) heh he works for the govt .. figures
[13:09] (Chrono-Z) Pretty cheap taxes, low cost of living, plenty international businesses and business expansion from out of state companies.
[13:09] (Chrono-Z) It works out well here.
[13:09] (Libertine) ug.. i dislike Dell with the fury of a thousand burning suns
[13:10] (L0c0) hm
[13:10] (Metoman) whats wrong with dell?
[13:10] (Chrono-Z) Close to the mountains and close to the beaches is nice too, and the mild climate aside from a few dodgy hurricanes every few years.
[13:10] (Libertine) there is nothing sadder in IT than looking at a quote for new hardware; seeing the "Dell" logo on it and already hoping it enters 'end of life' soon.
[13:11] (Libertine) Metoman: compared to other gear; it's not the cheapest, nor the best built.
[13:11] (Chrono-Z) Libertine the logo saying Packard Bell is worse. :)
[13:11] (Chrono-Z) O
[13:11] (Chrono-Z) I've seen it.
[13:11] (Libertine) Metoman: it used to at least - be the cheapest.
[13:11] (Chrono-Z) On that note it's bed time. You guys and gals have a good day. Be safe out there.
[13:11] (Libertine) I'd rather be buying Sun or IBM.
[13:11] (Metoman) so what is the best and cheapest gear then=
[13:11] (Metoman) ?
[13:12] (Libertine) HP isn't bad, but for blade centers, i prefer Sun's new 6000 series
[13:13] (Libertine) if you just want a high quality cheap server, a DL360 1U from HP is nice
[13:14] (Metoman) okei, I have a dell and it works just fine
[13:15] (Metoman) but the Dell laptops have crappy graphic cards
[13:15] (L0c0) Iraq is now a major magnet and center for terror. Our forces in Iraq are paying the price everyday. And our safety at home may someday soon be endangered as Iraq becomes a training ground for the next generation of terrorists.
[13:16] (Metoman) Iraq is the sentre of terrorist?XD
[13:16] (Nockian) L0c0: oh no... they might TERRORIZE ME!!!
[13:16] * n00b517 is now known as OcDoc
[13:17] (Metoman) Did Bush ever find a link bethwin Al queda and Saddam Hussain?
[13:17] (Metoman) I don't think so
[13:17] (OcDoc) Metoman: they were twins
[13:17] (L0c0) so about this earthquake in japan and the accident at the nuclear plant, how bad has that effected efforts to push nuclear here in the US?
[13:18] (L0c0) sucks imo...yet another set back
[13:18] (OcDoc) Loco: well, in the san andreas fault area ....
[13:19] (Metoman) Anyone here support the war in Iraq?
[13:20] (OcDoc) Metoman: I pay my taxes, yes
[13:20] (Metoman) yes, so?
[13:20] (OcDoc) so I support the war in Iraq with my taxes
[13:20] (OcDoc) if you're asking if I think we have any choice but to stay a while longer, no I don't think we have any choice
[13:21] (OcDoc) if we leave now, things will be worse there than they were when we kicked Iraq out of Kuwait
[13:23] (Libertine) wow.. PCS stock is now 40.33
[13:23] (Magnar) There where no wappons of mass destruction, and no clear link to al queda
[13:23] (OcDoc) Magnar: when?
[13:23] (Magnar) have less people died because of this war?
[13:24] (OcDoc) Magnar: less people than what?
[13:24] (CometBaby) same client
[13:24] (Libertine) aw..
[13:24] (CometBaby) puts two clients in here to troll with
[13:25] (OcDoc) it amazes me how some people assume that we would all agree with THEIR goals and expectations
[13:25] (Libertine) i generally assume people won't agree with mine.
[13:25] (OcDoc) the goal of the Iraq war was not to save lives per se
[13:26] (TheTailor) Take your own straight man to #politics and argue
[13:26] (OcDoc) I never once heard anyone say that a goal of the Iraq war was to break up any connection between Sadam and al Qaeda
[13:27] (OcDoc) Saddam was a dangerous dictator with a platform of oil who wanted to impose pan-Arabism on the entire region with a socialist spin and was responsible for two separate wars with neighbors
[13:27] * sHice is now known as sHice|
[13:27] (Aufklaren) Not to mention he'd brutally oppressed his own people, killing hundreds of thousands of Shia and Kurds and committing what amounted to genocide against the Marsh Arabs.
[13:28] (weboh) There was alot crap here last night about how Ron Paul has "energized the hard left." oh puhlease.
[13:28] (OcDoc) he invaded Kuwait and we kicked him out ... then he refused to cooperate with the terms of the ceasefire so we finished the invasion ... end of story
[13:28] (Libertine) Ron Paul is the new McCain?
[13:28] (Libertine) unlikely.
[13:28] (Aufklaren) Ron Paul = the candidate of fruitcakes everywhere! Beloved of the Sheehan-ist "anti-war" left, and the black-helicopters mouthbreathing right!
[13:29] (weboh) Libertine: It is hard shaking of that stupid The Nation endorsement though.
[13:29] (OcDoc) Libertine: first of all, Ron Paul sticks to his principles
[13:29] (Libertine) McCain became the darling of the democrats by attacking bush, and by downplaying his conservative views.. Ron Paul would never do that.
[13:29] (Libertine) (er Ron Paul would never downplay his views)
[13:30] (Libertine) if the left thinks Paul will roll over for them, they've got a lot to learn about libertarians.
[13:30] (weboh) Aufklaren: the black helicopters were Martin Marietta's way of saying to the UN. We give up. We know you will rule someday.
[13:30] (hans--) 55 percent of political donations from US Military are for Ron Paul, that says something.
[13:30] (gopp) Libertine the left hates libertarians
[13:30] (Libertine) but in the meantime; if the media wants to prop Paul up; i say, great.
[13:30] (Libertine) let him gain status; then use it to whip both sides.
[13:30] (OcDoc) hans: heh ... but what does it say?
[13:30] (hans--) OcDoc: kinda obvious, no?
[13:30] (Yaakov) I wish there was a non-crazy Presidential candidate.
[13:30] (OcDoc) hans: no
[13:31] (CometBaby) libertine and the best part is that McCain himself said he was the only republican running who was not in favor of the war .. but now that his campaign is falling about what does the media claim? It's because of his favorable position on the war.
[13:31] (hans--) ok to you then :D
[13:31] (Libertine) I thought you had to be crazy, to be president?
[13:31] (OcDoc) hans: nothing is obvious about libertarians
[13:31] (CometBaby) they get everything wrong !!!
[13:31] (yxhuvud) gopp: lefties might dislike libertarians, but they hate neocons more.
[13:31] (Libertine) Comet: heh
[13:31] (OcDoc) Libertine: no, but it helps
[13:31] (gopp) what a neocon yxhuvud
[13:31] (weboh) Immigration and war issues have both sunk McCain. Don't make a mistake in assuming the war wasn't a big factor.
[13:31] (Libertine) i think the left thinks we libs are just 'nutty'; but they fear neocons.
[13:32] (CometBaby) The reason his campaign is falling apart is because he keeps getting in bed with the Democrats. McCainFeingold is partly to blame and backroom conspiring with Ted Kennedy on that horrible immigration bill doomed him
[13:32] (Aufklaren) Libertine: I'm on the left and I don't fear neocons. I'm closer to neocons on issues of foreign policy than the orthodox left. ;)
[13:32] (Aufklaren) Libertine: But you're right, I do think libertarians are quite nutty. ;)
[13:32] (Libertine) well i got half of it right
[13:33] (OcDoc) lefties and righties are in bed together on the issue of government power
[13:33] (Libertine) I actually had a radio talk show talk down to me once; refered to me as "oh, you libertarians with your nutty ideas."
[13:33] (OcDoc) they believe in using government power to achieve their social goals
[13:34] (sullys) or restricting government to achieve thier goals
[13:34] (OcDoc) Libertine: yes, the ideas that were used to found America were nutty
[13:34] (Yaakov) It seems to be possible to substitute "tax dollars" for "troops" in most of the democratic party rhetoric I hear.
[13:34] (OcDoc) Libertine: what were we thinking?
[13:34] (sullys) lol Yaakov
[13:34] (Libertine) ocDoc: when i tell people your retort "we founded the country on these ideas" people tell me "well that was a long time ago, a lot has changed, it's a different world" .. yet those some people often fight tooth and nail for the 2nd amendment.
[13:34] * suna finds the topic cute
[13:34] (suna) the left re-spins it
[13:34] (Libertine) i don't get it..
[13:34] (suna) quite honest:)
[13:34] (OcDoc) sullys: no neocons believe in restricting government power to achieve their goals
[13:35] (Yaakov) It's very cycnical of me, but it seems to work.
[13:35] (weboh) OcDoc: the neocons believe in limited increased freedom.
[13:35] (Libertine) the problem with being a libertarian is; we have these ideals..
[13:35] (Aufklaren) I think America was founded on classical liberal ideas (Locke, Mill, Smith, Bentham), not libertarian principles. I do think there's a distinction.
[13:35] (OcDoc) sullys: they believe in using government power to achieve different social goals, that's all
[13:35] (Libertine) they really do get in the way of politics.
[13:36] (sullys) OcDoc, then specify neocons, not this blanket of 'righties and lefties'
[13:36] (hans--) and no "innies or outties"
[13:36] (OcDoc) Libertine: I don't call them ideals ... that's misleading ... I call them principles ... principles that have stood the test of time as "working"
[13:36] (sullys) touche
[13:36] (OcDoc) sullys: righties too
[13:37] (Libertine) hrm.
[13:37] (sullys) oh yes, cutting taxes, that is definitely expanding government power
[13:37] (OcDoc) hans: is yours an innie or an outie?
[13:37] (Yaakov) Ideals are great in an ideal world. In the practical world compromises actually make good stuff happen.
[13:37] * hans-- looks for Darthburg, gosh I miss his predictable rants about 1. leftist media 2. Bill Clinton 3. Hollywood liberals and 4. That damned New York Times.
[13:37] (OcDoc) sullys: they want to expand government power in some areas and shrink it in others
[13:37] * hans-- has to jet.
[13:37] (Yaakov) There are very few "ideals" that should be protected against comprimise.
[13:37] (hans--) Innie *bats eyes at OcDoc*
[13:37] (OcDoc) sullys: both righties and lefties want to shrink government power in some areas
[13:37] (sullys) OcDoc, you've really just gone to great lengths to say nothing at all
[13:38] (Libertine) wow.. just wow... http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,30000-1275554,.html
[13:38] (OcDoc) sullys: only libertarians want to shrink it in almost all areas
[13:38] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: Ideological extremes are for activists engaged in onanistic circle-jerks with no hope of ever attaining power. The proper exercise of power is pragmatic and open to compromise.
[13:38] (Libertine) 180 foot homer..
[13:38] (sullys) OcDoc, libertarians are righties
[13:38] (Libertine) sullys: righties? how?
[13:38] (Aufklaren) Libertine: Heh, all the neo-pagan freaks are praying for rain to wash it away.
[13:38] (OcDoc) sullys: go ahead, make up stuff
[13:38] (Libertine) sullys: i can't imagine many righties liking the libertarian view on the war on drugs.
[13:39] (sullys) it's not making anything up
[13:39] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Usually, idealists use extremity to push the center in their direction. Some don't know when to accept the new center to make it normal.
[13:39] (sullys) define your political spectrum
[13:39] (sullys) and place libertarians on it
[13:39] (Libertine) sullys: economic and social freedom.
[13:39] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Incremental change is the only sustainable change.
[13:39] (sullys) Libertine, that would be right
[13:39] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Revolution almost always causes chaos.
[13:39] (OcDoc) sullys: there are at least two axes ... statism vs liberty, and so-called liberal vs so called conservative
[13:39] (Libertine) sully: the left doesn't want social freedom?
[13:39] (sullys) OcDoc, name your axes
[13:40] (sullys) define them
[13:40] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: Exactly. Prescriptive, extreme ideological change is bound to failure (and usually violence, to sustain it). Like Popper said, it leads to closed societies. Incremental, rational, pragmatic change is what works.
[13:40] (TWThomas) I got exes that is live in Mexas
[13:40] (Aufklaren) Liberal democracy is boring and middle-of-the-road, but it works. Unlike the extremes.
[13:40] (Libertine) sully: here; http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html
[13:40] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: there's nothing middle of the road about the world right now
[13:41] (TWThomas) Libertine : ever been on a CB ?
[13:41] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: How do you mean? I don't see liberal democracy under threat.
[13:41] (Libertine) TWT: yes. why?
[13:41] (Aufklaren) A person standing in the 1930's might have thought liberal democracy was dead with the rise of fascism and communism, yet it outlased both. Liberal democracy is perceived by its detractors as weak, but in fact it's the most resilient of the lot.
[13:41] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Most people I talk to have set up an imaginary clearly polarized world where simple statements are valid and simple actions are effective.
[13:41] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: the west is increasingly polarized and the third world is increasingly violent and threatening to the west
[13:41] (TWThomas) Libertine : do you still have one ?
[13:42] (Libertine) TWT: nope
[13:42] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: liberal democracy has changed quite a lot since then
[13:42] (Libertine) there are left and right leaning libertarians.
[13:42] (TWThomas) Libertine : why ? too much boring information coming accross your 2 peel ?
[13:42] (weboh) I think it important to say that McCain is example of just how bankrupt Neoconservatism can be. It loves war, but worst of all, neoconservatism at its worst can be pro-immigration.
[13:42] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: And they are floored that the rest of us can't see the self-evident truth and beauty of their view.
[13:42] (Libertine) TWT: huh?
[13:42] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: The basis of it is the same. Representative democracy, human rights, the free press, the rule of law...
[13:43] (TWThomas) Libertine : your Antenna ?
[13:43] (sullys) lol Yaakov
[13:43] (sullys) true
[13:43] (OcDoc) weboh: huh?
[13:43] (Libertine) TWT: i dont have a CB because it's archaic.
[13:43] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: That's because they prescribe, rather than describe. Instead of seeing the problems of the world as they are, they seem as part of an ideological narrative.
[13:43] (Aufklaren) That's what has kept the Trots out of power for the last half-century.
[13:43] (TWThomas) Libertine : CB's aren't archaic
[13:43] (Aufklaren) At least the Stalinists had a sense of pragmatism.
[13:43] (gopp) hmm jammie fox has a station ON sirius
[13:43] (Libertine) TWT: CBs and HAM.
[13:43] (sullys) communism only killed 100 million or so, lets give it another run
[13:44] (weboh) heheh
[13:44] (sullys) marxist ideology i should say
[13:44] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: I'm not arguing against liberal democracy ... I'm saying we've gotten away from it
[13:44] (weboh) OcDoc: There was a time when neocons hoped to change conservatives' beliefs about immigration.
[13:44] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: I don't think so. We suffer from electoral apathy, but I don't know if that isn't actually a good sign in disguise. When people are too politically active, things go wrong. :P
[13:45] (sullys) anyone who lookes to Nietsche for philisophical inspiration should not be governing
[13:45] (TWThomas) Libertine : you've been on IRC and Cellphones too long
[13:45] (OcDoc) weboh: I see
[13:45] (SweetLeaf) -.- .---
[13:46] (weboh) OcDoc: they were hoping conservatives would recant their anti-immigration stances. not a chance.
[13:46] (niller) how do we see the world - that is my problem - too many people fighting each other over which afterlife is right
[13:46] (sullys) philosophical even heh
[13:46] (SweetLeaf) lets talk code
[13:46] (SweetLeaf) heh
[13:46] (niller) nistead on focusing on survival of man
[13:46] (niller) *instead
[13:46] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: I'm saying that liberal democracy has drifted gradually towards one extreme and the polarization represents last-ditch attitudes towards preventing further drift and pushing it that last little bit into the extreme
[13:46] (SweetLeaf) -.- .---
[13:46] (Aufklaren) SweetLeaf: ... .-- . . - / .-.. . .- ..-. / .. ... / .- / -.-. ..- -. -
[13:46] (SweetLeaf) heh
[13:46] (Libertine) TWT: bah, there is only wireless.. and the best wireless is Metro PCS ;)
[13:46] (SweetLeaf) mine spells CJ
[13:46] (Libertine) buy "PCS" stock.. :)
[13:47] (Aufklaren) SweetLeaf: I got KJ.
[13:47] (niller) so if survival of man if at all important we should have to work with our enemies
[13:47] (SweetLeaf) you can use your computer as a ham radio now
[13:47] (Aufklaren) SweetLeaf: C is -.-.
[13:47] (niller) enemies change over time
[13:47] (Aufklaren) -.- .--- is KJ
[13:47] (SweetLeaf) ya I forgot
[13:47] (SweetLeaf) long time ago
[13:47] (niller) so we will have to work with man - will we succeed?
[13:48] (OcDoc) niller: why is the survival of "man" important to you?
[13:48] (SweetLeaf) I love it on tv they see or hear code and everyone seems to know what it is heh
[13:48] (niller) anyway. i like this woman : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ
[13:48] (Aufklaren) SweetLeaf: Yeah, I think it's more or less impossible to translate Morse code by ear.
[13:48] (niller) because i am one - survival of the human species?
[13:48] (Aufklaren) SweetLeaf: It's necessary to write it down while you hear it, then translate.
[13:48] (SweetLeaf) I got friends that do
[13:49] (niller) ocdoc - try joining it - we are quite nice
[13:49] (SweetLeaf) I know a guy that dirves and sends code at the same time
[13:49] (niller) besides our flaws
[13:49] (Aufklaren) niller: Nah, bugger that. I don't want to be nice to my enemies. I want my enemies to die or otherwise be defeated.
[13:49] (SweetLeaf) how he comutes to and from work
[13:49] (Aufklaren) Heh, is he ex-military?
[13:49] (niller) so you want enemies - not survival of the species
[13:49] (niller) fair enough
[13:49] (SweetLeaf) no he grew up with a ham father
[13:49] (Aufklaren) niller: I don't see how the survival of the species is possible without killing the enemies.
[13:49] * n00b935 is now known as OcDoc
[13:50] (niller) no you dont
[13:50] (niller) its called war
[13:50] (SweetLeaf) My call sign is KB6VPF
[13:50] (Aufklaren) Right. And it's sometimes unfortunate but necessary.
[13:50] (SweetLeaf) look it up on qrz
[13:50] (Aufklaren) I've never used a ham radio. Before my time.
[13:50] (OcDoc) dah di dah dit ... dah dah di dah
[13:50] (Aufklaren) I picked up morse at Air Cadets.
[13:50] (SweetLeaf) I forgot code
[13:50] (Aufklaren) That and the phonetic alphabet. ;)
[13:50] (Aufklaren) Oh, and how to fly gliders. :P
[13:51] (SweetLeaf) use it or lose it
[13:51] (niller) hurting poeple are so easy - thats why this planet is doing just swell
[13:51] (OcDoc) personally I don't care whether the human race survives or not, as long as no one I know is caught up personally in the end of the race
[13:51] (niller) *people is
[13:51] (SweetLeaf) I learned code just to get my license never used it again after that
[13:51] (niller) check this woman out - she is pretty cool
[13:51] (Aufklaren) I want to see the human race survive. I just don't think that's going to be achieved by pretending there aren't bad people out there.
[13:51] (niller) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ
[13:52] (OcDoc) there is no over-riding principle that says that the human race is special in any way or should be preserved ... it's all just individual lives, and trying to make life better for as many peeps as possible
[13:52] (niller) not at all - but acting like bad people wont help
[13:52] (OcDoc) SweetLeaf: me too
[13:52] (Aufklaren) The Christian concept of loving one's enemies is a farce and a fraud. It's natural to hate one's enemies. We all have the same animalistic urge to see our enemies vanquished.
[13:52] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: I don'
[13:52] (SweetLeaf) there is always going to be someone out there that will want to take what is not theirs by any means its human nature
[13:52] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: t see it that way ... I say it as a here and now thing
[13:52] (niller) why is trying to understand so hard?
[13:53] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: There is an element to the idea that is good and important. It is part of defining what "enemy" means.
[13:53] (OcDoc) niller: trying to understand is at the heart of negotiation and compromise ... humans are very good at it
[13:53] (OcDoc) niller: sometimes it fails
[13:54] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: I don't think the human species is divine, or something. I just think we're incredibly sophisticated animals, the most sophisticated on the planet, and the loss of our intelligence would be a waste.
[13:54] (niller) 'The Christian concept of loving one's enemies is a farce and a fraud.' thats a fucking stupid thing to say. why do you think that anybody loves their enemies?
[13:54] (niller) loving is not a part of this
[13:54] (niller) understanding
[13:54] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: well, I also don't want to see the human race exterminated ... I just don't see it as a higher issue, just a pragmatic one
[13:54] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: We're capable of great things, even if we're also capable of the most horrid. We are special, really. Not, like I said, because we're divine, but because the process of evolution has given us such marvellously large brains.
[13:55] (Aufklaren) niller: I'm talking about the Christian idea of loving one's enemies. I'm saying it's a farce and a fraud.
[13:55] (Aufklaren) I'm all for understanding our enemies. It means we can persuade them to our point of view, or, if not, kill them easier.
[13:55] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: okay, but that's a tautology ... if we're smart enough to be special, we're also smart enough to avoid extermination
[13:55] (niller) why do yuou think christians love their enemies?
[13:55] (Aufklaren) I don't think they do.
[13:55] (Aufklaren) I think they claim to.
[13:55] (niller) nobody does
[13:55] (Aufklaren) Exactly.
[13:55] (Aufklaren) It's a farce and a fraud.
[13:56] (Aufklaren) People hate their enemies, and they're lying if they say otherwise.
[13:56] (niller) all warfaring religions claims that
[13:56] (ezshock) I love my enemies .... love killing them =D
[13:56] (niller) we have suicide cults that deserves to die
[13:56] (TWThomas) Libertine : CB is only IRC without 1200000 different channels :-)
[13:56] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: I think that's a non-sequitur. Intelligence and ability to avoid extermination don't necessarily correlate.
[13:56] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: After all, it wasn't stupidity that gave us the atomic bomb, was it?
[13:57] (OcDoc) true
[13:57] (Aufklaren) In fact, as we grow in intelligence as a species, our ability for self-destruction becomes more refined.
[13:58] (niller) but several scientist are religious - i am not - that dfoesntr make them stupid
[13:58] (niller) doesnt
[13:59] (Aufklaren) GAH.
[13:59] (Aufklaren) I just had Harry Potter spoiled for me.
[13:59] (niller) being religious have nothing to do with intelligence
[13:59] (Aufklaren) I'm going to kill that bastard.
[13:59] (OcDoc) niller: compartmentalization
[13:59] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: "loving your enemy" doesn't have to be mutually exclusive with killing him, in self-defense.
[13:59] (niller) but why are you so obsessed with killing?
[13:59] (niller) i live with my enemies
[13:59] (niller) i evene talk to you
[13:59] (niller) even
[14:00] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: no one knows yet
[14:00] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: Well, you can't truly love someone if you kill them. That's sanctimonious codswallop "I love you, I really do, but I'm going to have to do you in. Sigh. I wish it weren't so!"
[14:00] (OcDoc) not until Friday midnight
[14:00] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: I've just seen a scan of the last page of the book.
[14:00] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: :P
[14:00] (niller) killing is easy - thinking is hard - thats why earth is stupid
[14:00] (OcDoc) damn ... probably fake
[14:00] (Aufklaren) I doubt it. It looks spot on.
[14:00] (Aufklaren) I can't see them producing an entire book just for the purposes of spoiling people.
[14:00] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Sorry, I don't agree. If you hold self-defense higher, you do what is needed. On the other hand you don't revel in it and you avoid cruelty and other sorts of behavior associated with "hate".
[14:00] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: I think mercy killing can be an act of love
[14:01] (TWThomas) Harry Potter needs to be read by people who don't give a fuck about Harry Potter
[14:01] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: Ah, that's true.
[14:01] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: many hunters love their prey as they kill it
[14:01] (OcDoc) honoring the strength and beauty
[14:01] (Eeyore) hey OcDoc
[14:01] (Aufklaren) Prey isn't really an enemy though, is it?
[14:02] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: the idea of eating your enemy's heart to gain his strength and cunning fits in with that
[14:02] (TWThomas) and we don't have Hairy Potter but we do have Hairy Otters
[14:02] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Hating the enemy leads to torture and murder. Self-defense is 100% legitimate without question, but hate breeds murder.
[14:02] (OcDoc) I don't feel it myself but it has been said
[14:02] (OcDoc) hiya Eeyore
[14:02] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: So, while it isn't easy to rise above animal tendencies, it is possible and virtuous.
[14:02] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: Respecting an enemy and genuinely loving them isn't the same thing.
[14:02] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: a lion in the veldt is an enemy, but you respect him
[14:02] (OcDoc) I see that
[14:02] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: You need to define love.
[14:03] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: If a person stops being an enemy, do you stop hating them?
[14:03] (Eeyore) love: the illusion of value
[14:03] (OcDoc) Yaakov: depends on the enemy and the context of the conflict
[14:03] (Aufklaren) A feeling of genuine affection and need.
[14:03] (OcDoc) Yaakov: I can understand wanting to torture your enemy as you kill him for raping your wife
[14:04] (Yaakov) OcDoc: Understanding something isn't the same as saying it is good.
[14:04] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: well, don't confuse affection with love either
[14:04] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Love, in the most broad sense, is wanting what is truly best for someone, as you would for yourself.
[14:04] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: and also christians have described four different kinds of love ... brother love, love of god etc
[14:04] (Yaakov) You can love someone without liking them at all.
[14:05] (Aufklaren) Still, let's look at it in a practical context. Who are our general enemies?
[14:05] (Aufklaren) Islamist terrorists, for one.
[14:05] (Aufklaren) Would you believe any Christian who told you he loved Osama bin Laden?
[14:05] (OcDoc) Yaakov: exactly ... my definition of love is - if my own happiness depends on the happiness of someone else, then I love her
[14:05] (Aufklaren) That can't be real love.
[14:05] (Aufklaren) It's sanctimonious nonsense.
[14:05] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I percieve the Islamists as mentally ill.
[14:05] (Eeyore) Yaakov fine. then drop a bomb of thorazine on em. just drop the bomb
[14:05] (Aufklaren) I wouldn't go so far as to say mentally ill - they tend to be well-educated and reasonably adjusted - but deluded, definitely.
[14:06] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: well, christians consider loving your enemy an ideal to aim for, but christians are not perfect
[14:06] (TheTailor) hmm
[14:06] (TheTailor) if my own happiness depends on the happiness of someone else, then I love her
[14:06] (Aufklaren) That doesn't excuse their actions for me. I have no interesting in loving them.
[14:06] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I really see the particular sort of simplistic, insular fundamentalism they practice as a disorder.
[14:06] (OcDoc) TheTailor: turn it around ... if my own happiness doesn't depend on her happiness, then I don't love her
[14:06] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: This after a lot of thought.
[14:07] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: nobody is saying love excuses bad behavior
[14:07] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: I don't see it as any more of a disorder than fascism or Stalinism.
[14:07] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: And?
[14:07] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: They are all totalitarian ideologies.
[14:07] (Aufklaren) yaakov: Well, I don't see fascism or Stalinism as mental disorders.
[14:08] (Aufklaren) That almost suggests they be excused for being a bit thick.
[14:08] (Eeyore) Aufklaren exactly. its not a disorder at all. this habit of medicalizing personality and politics has to stop
[14:08] (OcDoc) no totalitarian sees martyrdom as desireable as part of his politics
[14:08] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: A religious totalitarian does.
[14:08] * _3Joes is now known as _3Josephs
[14:08] (OcDoc) their core belief was in the superiority of themselves in being able to defeat everyone else
[14:08] (Eeyore) people in general are a bit thick. average IQ means just that. average and the average person listens to psychics and horoscopes. frankly its amazing we have come this far.
[14:08] (TheTailor) OcDoc, bin Laden does
[14:09] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: a religious totalitarian sees the superiority in the god, not in the human
[14:09] (Aufklaren) Totalitarians believe in all-encompassing ideologies so pure and correct that they can be forced on the rest of us.
[14:09] (Aufklaren) That fits Islamism perfectly in my mind.
[14:09] (RktScntst) where's gopp? got something for him.. heh.
[14:09] (RktScntst) http://duggmirror.com/apple/The_iPhone_is_a_piece_of_shit_and_so_is_your_face/
[14:09] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: just saying they are apples and oranges ... you can't bridge the gap by saying "totalitarian"
[14:10] (OcDoc) the difference is not totalitarianism but religion
[14:10] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: Why? Totalitarian is a fairly simple definition. It doesn't prescribe a particular political system.
[14:10] (Eeyore) OcDoc there is an important distinctntion between Islamacist religious nuts and other flavours. CHristians think nothing man does will influence the second coming of thier avatar. Muslims believe that they can bring on the armagedon which will herald a new islamic age.
[14:10] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I do and I will explain. The closed nature of the system means it suffers from a positive feedback loop. It cannot accept correction and everything that happens *confirms* the correctness of the system to those inside it. It is a kind of mass hysteria. The *usual* case is that those around you provide positive *and* negative feedback about behavior, even if they are not part of your "group". In a closed, fundamnetalist group, there is no correct
[14:10] (Aufklaren) I'm saying it's possible to be totalitarian whether you're secular or religious.
[14:10] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: This is true for most if not all text-based (static), exclusive (closed) belief systems.
[14:10] (Eeyore) Aufklaren I think the Catholics proved that one
[14:11] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: but one kind does not lead to suicide bombers ... the other does
[14:11] (Eeyore) OcDoc so the Kamakazi dont count?
[14:11] (OcDoc) Eeyore: that was religious ... divine wind after all
[14:11] (Aufklaren) 1 a : of or relating to centralized control by an autocratic leader or hierarchy .. b : of or relating to a political regime based on subordination of the individual to the state and strict control of all aspects of the life and productive capacity of the nation especially by coercive measures (as censorship and terrorism)
[14:11] (Eeyore) OcDoc i did not know that
[14:11] (Aufklaren) I think the second definition fits Islamists perfectly.
[14:12] (Eeyore) bbiab
[14:12] (OcDoc) Eeyore: and don't forget most of the Kamikaze pilots had to be nailed into their planes ... their hearts weren't really in it
[14:12] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: Right, but that's incidental to the question of whether Islamism is a totalitarian ideology.
[14:12] (TWThomas) Osama bin Laden is dead
[14:12] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: okay
[14:12] (OcDoc) I'm not following you
[14:12] (TWThomas) Al-Qaida is only playing with our fears
[14:13] (Aufklaren) There have also been secular suicide bombers. The Tamils are Hindus, but their terrorism is motivated by secular separatism and nationalism.
[14:13] (OcDoc) the critical difference is the religious factor for the totalitarians
[14:13] (Aufklaren) But that's not the point.
[14:13] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: I'm not very familiar with the Tamils but I don't think they are suicide bombers are they?
[14:14] (Aufklaren) Sure. The Tamils were carrying out suicide bombing when Al-Qaeda was nothing but a gleam in the adolescent bin Laden's eye.
[14:14] (OcDoc) it's almost impossible to get a terrorist to suicide in the process unless there is a religious factor
[14:14] (Aufklaren) They have suicide brigades and everything.
[14:14] (Aufklaren) The Tamils have carried out at least 200 separate suicide bombings.
[14:14] (RktScntst) argh.. my wife got hooter's wings take out. that defeats the whole purpose..
[14:14] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: I'll take your word for it, but I bet there is a religious martyrdom factor in their case if true
[14:15] (OcDoc) Rocket: she likes the food
[14:15] (gopp) RktScntst :(
[14:15] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: Think of the assassin of Rajiv Ghandi.
[14:15] (gopp) RktScntst don't she knows the food taste better warm
[14:15] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: She was a secular Tamil.
[14:15] (gopp) :)
[14:15] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: that was a while back
[14:15] (SweetLeaf) What do you expect they teach it to children
[14:15] (Aufklaren) (And a woman, unlike most suicide bombers).
[14:15] (Aufklaren) 1991 isn't that far back.
[14:15] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: The reason that Stalinists only murdered and didn't use suicide attacks is that they were atheist and didn't believe in anything beyond this life.
[14:16] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: who are you? and what have you done with Aufklaren?
[14:16] (OcDoc) ;-)
[14:16] (Aufklaren) Heh, I think that religion isn't necessary for suicide bombings. Utopian, extremist ideology is. In most cases, that ideology is religion.
[14:17] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Haven't you noted that the Islamist suicides are *rational* acts?
[14:17] (Aufklaren) Rational?
[14:17] (OcDoc) I would be willing to die in defense of my family, my friends, my country, but I would not kill myself on purpose in the process
[14:17] (Aufklaren) I wouldn't call Islamist suicide rational.
[14:17] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I would. They expect perpetual physical paradise then the opportunity to name 70 people to join them.
[14:18] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Much better than *this* world.
[14:18] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: But that's not rational, is it?
[14:18] (Aufklaren) A rational person would never believe such a thing in the first place.
[14:18] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: well, I might try to make the case that utopean extremist idealogies are religion, but that's just semantics ... point taken
[14:18] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: The belief isn't rational but once you believe it, martyrdom IS.
[14:18] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: Right, if you believe it, killing yourself is rational. But it's a rational act descending from an irrational one.
[14:19] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: Actually, I think you're quite right there. Utopian extremist ideologies do share a lot in common with religion.
[14:19] (OcDoc) the best I can say is that the vast majority of beliefs that result in suicide bombings are religious
[14:19] (Aufklaren) I've often thought orthodox Marxism has a lot of religious qualities.
[14:19] (Aufklaren) The Trots in particular.
[14:19] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: true
[14:20] (OcDoc) heh ... discussion leads to a meeting of the minds ... who woulda thunkit?
[14:20] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Acting on the wrong information happens all the time. It really doesn't matter that the antecedent is irrational, that is the problem with the closed system.
[14:20] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: I think you might be on to something there. Perhaps secular utopianist extremism - as in the case of the Tamils - is just a substitute for religion.
[14:20] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: That's true. I suppose if I genuinely believed by killing myself I could have 72 virgins at my whim, I'd view it as perfectly rational.
[14:20] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: it is one of the dangers I'm concerned about when western people search for spiritualism
[14:21] (OcDoc) they feel something missing in their lives and search for spirituality through abandoning rationality
[14:21] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Therein lies the problem of closed systems.
[14:21] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: It is intolerance ad absurdum.
[14:22] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: It is an error available to all grops.
[14:22] (Yaakov) u
[14:22] (OcDoc) as a more or less rational person, I seek spirituality in appreciating sunsets, wildlife and art
[14:22] (OcDoc) especially music, but then I try to return to a more or less rational approach to the rest of my life
[14:22] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: I think there's a sharp difference between the spiritual and the transcendental.
[14:22] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: I hope so
[14:23] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: Sunsets, babies and the Hubble telescope might be transcendental, but I think to call them spiritual is to sully them as being irrational.
[14:23] (Yaakov) The irrational isn't *bad*, pure irrationality *is*--as is pure *rationality*.
[14:23] (Yaakov) Humans NEED both, in balanace.
[14:23] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: okay, I accept your friendly amendment ... I seek the transcendental instead of the spiritual?
[14:24] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: Well, that's how I'd put it for myself.
[14:24] (OcDoc) Yaakov: that's more my approach ... I agree
[14:24] (OcDoc) as long as I can separate the spiritual irrational and don't spend too much time there, all is well
[14:24] (SweetLeaf) Why does everyone think there is something else step on a bug and squash it gone just like us
[14:24] (OcDoc) I go there for relaxation and recharge my batteries without wanting it continuously
[14:25] (Aufklaren) OcDoc: I get goosebumps on the back of my neck when I look up at a pitch-black, starry sky. Something about it transcends the ordinary and rational. But I know that's my wonderful mammalian brain working - I don't think it's spiritual.
[14:25] (Yaakov) I embrace irrationality, tempered by the rational. I personally believe that irrationality is a "higher" thing, but it is absolutely useless without rationality.
[14:25] (OcDoc) SweetLeaf: wishful thinking
[14:25] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I think you are comforting yourself with word games by making that distinction.
[14:25] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: well, the sheer size of the universe is impressive, but neither spiritual nor transcendental to me ... beauty just IS
[14:26] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: I'm quite teh opposite. I think rationality is the higher thing, but it must be tempered with some irrationality. For example, the most rational way to prevent an outbreak of lice at a school might be to murder the affected children. The irrational is useful there.
[14:26] (SweetLeaf) OC you think there is a heaven n hell?
[14:26] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: I couldn't disagree more. When I experience the transcendental, I know it's a result of what's happening within the confines of my skull. I don't fool myself that there is something genuinely magical or divine about it.
[14:27] (Yaakov) OcDoc: "Just is" is quite irrational. Rationality is reductionistic, "is" is holistic. Irrationality is our only way to approach the infinity of "is".
[14:27] (yawg) Aufklaren: oh but it is
[14:27] (OcDoc) SweetLeaf: no
[14:27] (yawg) Aufklaren: don't trivialize your body like that
[14:27] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: I accept that there are ways to be affected by beauty that go beyond mere aesthetic appreciation. But I don't think that's spiritual.
[14:27] (OcDoc) Yaakov: true
[14:27] (Aufklaren) yawg: I'm doing quite the opposite. I'm saying that those amazing experiences are the result of my fabulously complex human brain.
[14:27] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Suggesting that you know the nature of the transcendental is irrational.
[14:27] (rondd) Maybe your fooling yourself in convincing that it is "only between" the skull
[14:27] (yawg) Aufklaren: if you believe that god is the universe, and that you are the universe looking at itself through the eyes of a human, than you will realize it is very spirtual while knowing full well nothing is going on outside your head
[14:28] (OcDoc) imagination beyond the comprehensible is responsible for the reaction
[14:28] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: But I do know the nature of the transcendental. The transcendental itself is rational, even if the experience of it is not.
[14:28] (OcDoc) I think it is a tool that I use to keep myself in line rationally
[14:29] (yawg) how is it not rational?
[14:29] (yawg) there is a lot to discover in your own mind
[14:29] (OcDoc) oh, jeezus it's yawg again!
[14:29] (OcDoc) hiya yawg
[14:29] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Your "knowledge" is actually a matter of faith, isn't it?
[14:29] (yawg) i recently dissociated and lost my ego
[14:29] (yawg) hi OcDoc
[14:29] (yawg) learned a lot about how my brain works
[14:29] (yawg) about my personality
[14:29] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: No. It's a matter of belief, but that's something separate. I believe the sun will rise tomorrow morning - but then again, I have a reasonable basis in fact to suppose that.
[14:29] (yawg) when you lose your ego, all that is left is god
[14:29] (yawg) your true self
[14:29] (OcDoc) yawg: I found your ego and put it to work in my garden yesterday ... want it back?
[14:30] (Yaakov) yawg: It is in the channel lost and found, I think. Ask CometBaby.
[14:30] (yawg) smartasses
[14:30] (yawg) obviously i have an ego now otherwise iw ouldn't be capable of communicating with you
[14:30] (KoBushi) I always find irony in the preaching of non-ego as the superior way to be
[14:30] (OcDoc) yawg: tee hee
[14:30] (ezshock) I wonder what is going to happen when this poor "unarmed drug dealer" kills someone on one of his drug runs across the border
[14:30] (yawg) the ego is the interface between the true self and the external
[14:30] (yawg) non ego is no way to live
[14:30] (Aufklaren) My super-ego killed my ego and ate it. Now all I am is a constant stream of self-criticism without the self. :p
[14:30] (yawg) but losing it and getting it back can teach a lot
[14:31] (KoBushi) because it is in fact ego, which drives people to feel superior about thier non-ego heh
[14:31] (yawg) right, you can even comment on not having an ego without having an ego
[14:31] (yawg) exactly
[14:31] (yawg) can't*
[14:31] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: What is the science on which you base your belief that consciousness is a product of the brain?
[14:31] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: Are you being serious?
[14:31] (OcDoc) non-ego is a way to die slowly of starvation
[14:32] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Quite.
[14:32] (Aufklaren) yaakov: Well, the entirety of neuroscience.
[14:32] (ezshock) Doesn't anyone find it funny the gung bashing media hasn't been talking about the rifle the guy (that they can't find yet) may have used to snipe his wife in the head?
[14:32] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: That's sily.
[14:32] (Yaakov) l
[14:32] (ezshock) I figured the media would be all over that
[14:32] (ezshock) gun*
[14:32] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: It's silly to point out that human consciousness comes from the brain?
[14:32] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: I don't doubt that self plugs in biochemically and neurologically to the brain, but no one has figured out the connection yet
[14:32] (yawg) i think our consciousness comes from the brain
[14:32] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: Where do you suppose it comes from?
[14:32] (yawg) that doesn't make it not spiritual
[14:32] (OcDoc) I have a patient ... fun
[14:33] (ezshock) They haven't said one thing about him
[14:33] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: It is silly to suggest that neuroscience offers any proof that it arises from the brain.
[14:33] (Aufklaren) yawg: It does if it comes only from the brain.
[14:33] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I don't know.
[14:33] (yawg) Aufklaren: how so?
[14:33] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: But I feel there is a good chance that the brain is an interface rather than the source.
[14:33] (yawg) you wouldn't exist without the rest of the universe
[14:33] (yawg) know that you *are* the universe
[14:33] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: Of course it does. There are parts of the brain one can damage to end consciousness. There are parts of the brain one can use to change consciousness.
[14:34] (Aufklaren) Does a severely brain-damaged person have consciousness?
[14:34] (yawg) yes
[14:34] (Aufklaren) No they don't.
[14:34] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: No, there are parts of the brain you can damage to prevent it from interacting with the world. You can't know if it still exists or not.
[14:34] (yawg) yes they most certainly do
[14:34] (Aufklaren) No, they most certainly don't.
[14:34] (KoBushi) teri chivo = no consciousness
[14:34] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: If you broke your monitor I would still exist. I think...
[14:34] (yawg) i drank a 4oz bottle of extra strength robitussin last friday, my ego was blasted to pieces, i was still conscious
[14:34] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: But the brain is the source, not only an interface.
[14:35] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Yes, that is our assertion.
[14:35] (RktScntst) Aufklaren: you should watch Johnny Got His Gun
[14:35] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I don't have to agree, and you haven't actually provided me with evidence.
[14:35] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: But you're the one that needs to provide the evidence. You're the one mulitplying entities beyond necessity.
[14:35] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: It isn't fair for you to assume that I accept the same axiomatic principles as you do.
[14:36] (yawg) Aufklaren: i believe you and i are the same entity, we share a soul, i agree with you that we wouldn't be conscious without our brains but that doesn't remove an element of spirituality from it, we are united in experience
[14:36] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: No, I don't have any burden of proof--you are only asserting your position.
[14:36] (Aufklaren) Yes, we can't map every single neuron of the brain. So far, it's perfectly sensible to assume that all that is consciousness comes from the brain, and nothing to suggest there is something else.
[14:36] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: There are things that suggest something else.
[14:36] (KoBushi) Yaakov but is it fair to assume that his axioms are true and your's aren't? ;)
[14:36] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I wonder how much neuroscience you have read.
[14:36] (RktScntst) Aufklaren: i disagree with your assertion "it's perfecly sensible".
[14:37] (RktScntst) and even if it were, well.. scientific truth isn't always sensible
[14:37] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: Of course you do. Unless you can show that it's not possible for consciousness to come from the brain alone, and in the absence of any evidence that it does not, the presumption has to be that consciousness does not require something beyond a brain.
[14:37] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: That is a misapplication of Occam.
[14:37] (Aufklaren) No, it's really not. We can explain, or at least reliably hope to explain in the future, the mysteries of consciousness through the study of the brain.
[14:38] (Aufklaren) Bringing in "spirituality" is multiplying entities beyond necessity.
[14:38] (RktScntst) um, it sure as hell requires something beyond a brain.
[14:38] (Aufklaren) RktScntst: Alright, a brain and a working body to attach it to. :P You know what I mean.
[14:38] (RktScntst) talk about speaking nonsense
[14:38] (RktScntst) Aufklaren: no, i assume you worded what you said to accurately reflect what you were thinking.. subconsciously of course
[14:39] (Aufklaren) Right, of course. I was ACTUALLY saying that all you needed was a brain. No body required.
[14:39] (Libertine) A brain without any sensory input would be .. bored
[14:39] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I disagree. My personal experience is otherwise and I think your knowledge of brain science is a bit wanting. But this is just a game of assertions, so you have the last word.
[14:39] * n00b054 is now known as OcDoc
[14:39] (Aufklaren) Don't be silly. I meant "beyond a brain" in the sense of the spiritual.
[14:39] (RktScntst) Libertine: or, perhaps rather free.
[14:39] (Libertine) Rkt: to contemplate the nothing ? ;)
[14:39] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: I was doing more than asserting. I argued why it was wrong, or at least unnecessary, to assert the spiritual.
[14:40] (RktScntst) Aufklaren: well then, perhaps you should be more careful to state what you actually state. I can not read your mind.
[14:40] (OcDoc) Libertine: some religions see the real world as a distraction that keeps us from seeing the higher orders of being
[14:40] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: By the way, I freely admit my position isn't in line with scientific orthodoxy, but you know about orthodoxy.
[14:40] (RktScntst) Libertine: heh.. anyways, the movie I referred to, is about just that.
[14:40] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: And, to be quite honest, you're the one who said that neuroscience offers no proof that consciousness comes from the brain. Which I think would demonstrate a lack of understanding of neuroscience on your part rather than mine.
[14:40] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: Occam's Razor attracts me too
[14:40] (RktScntst) Libertine: about a soldier injured in WWI.. cut off from all external stimuli
[14:40] (Yaakov) Aufklaren:
[14:40] (Libertine) Rkt: creepy..
[14:41] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: neuroscience doesn't deal with consciousness, as it turns out.
[14:41] (OcDoc) Rocket: what was the movie about the scientist in the sensory deprivation tank?
[14:41] (RktScntst) Libertine: and then, without knowing if he succeeds or not.. wills himself to use his body in morse code... SOS... SOS.. help me.. kill me. i want to die.
[14:41] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: How so?
[14:42] (RktScntst) Libertine: and the doctors ignore his wishes, because they can not accept the reality that the boy is still "conscious"
[14:42] (OcDoc) Johnny Got His Gun
[14:42] (Harsen) Aufklaren msg
[14:42] (RktScntst) OcDoc: yea.. WWI movie
[14:42] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: Surely the study of consciousness would fall under the confines of cognitive neuroscience, or whatever it's called.
[14:42] (OcDoc) another patient
[14:42] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Neuroscience is concerned with the brain and human behavior. It doesn't care about silly things like self-awareness, except in the fringes, and that isnt based on the main body of the field.
[14:43] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Scientists working in neuroscience go out of their way to avoid such questions.
[14:43] (RktScntst) You know, I once had some adverse reactions to a certain chemical [ unknown at the time ].. I saw many neuroscientists.. not one explored the issue of my consciouisness and the brain.
[14:43] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: Yes, but consciousness is just an informal term for a range of actual brain functions.
[14:43] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Sure way to avoid tenure.
[14:43] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: That's just plain wrong.
[14:43] (Libertine) Neuroscientists are more concerned with mechanics.
[14:43] (RktScntst) Libertine: yep.
[14:44] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Go ahead and read some on this question. You might be surprised.
[14:44] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Your confidence far outstrips the specialists.
[14:44] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: I'm sorry, but I doubt I'll find any specialist arguing that consciousness has nothing to do with the brain.
[14:45] (RktScntst) I'm not sure he said "nothing"
[14:45] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I didn't say that the manifestation of conciousness has nothing to do with the brain.
[14:46] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I also need to point out that Occam's Razor is a tool, not a natural law.
[14:46] (Aufklaren) And in an argument, it is a tool that can be used to find the most likely answer or explanation.
[14:47] (Aufklaren) It's at least a retort to the idea that "you can't prove that spirituality doesn't exist!"
[14:47] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I believe that consciousness, as we experience it, is probably an interaction between the brain and something else.
[14:47] (Aufklaren) And RktScntst: He said that there was no proof that consciousness arises from the brain (roughly).
[14:47] (RktScntst) I believe
[14:47] (Harsen) what an irrelevant argument
[14:47] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: The most likely explanation is not always the correct one, and the irrational, which we were discussing, isn't subject to rational rules.
[14:48] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: And I'm saying there's no evidence for that, and there is plenty of evidence that the brain is perfectly capable of doing what it does without interaction with the spiritual.
[14:48] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: What is the evidence?
[14:48] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: The most likely explanation is the most likely explanation, which really ought to be enough in the absence of any other evidence.
[14:48] * n00b095 is now known as OcDoc
[14:48] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: You keep citing "plenty of evidence", give examples that support your case but not mine.
[14:49] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: Because we can see what parts of the brain control certain motor functions, for example. We can see which parts of the brain are used to regulate hormones. That alone is evidence that the brain can very well be responsible for the rest of it.
[14:49] (RktScntst) Yaakov: i wonder, in highly technical science, is occum's ever even correct.. i mean, newtonian kinematics are vastly simplier than general relativity :-)
[14:49] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Motor functions aren't consciouness!
[14:49] (OcDoc) Rocket: Occam's Razor is always the first line of reasoning, it may not be the ultimate answer
[14:49] (OcDoc) Rocket: and sometimes there are no answers
[14:49] (RktScntst) first line? naw
[14:50] (RktScntst) most often, it seems to be a use of desperation for someone, who can not put forth anything else.
[14:50] (OcDoc) Rocket: yes
[14:50] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: That's not the point. The existence of motor functions as a property of the brain is enough to demonstrate that the brain is at least CAPABLE of doing things along those lines. Consciousness is just one step up.
[14:50] (Yaakov) OcDoc: Occam's Razor isn't useful for things that cannot be logically proven
[14:50] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Wow! So a human is one step up from a rock?
[14:50] (OcDoc) Rocket: the simplest explanation of a set of facts is usually the best one, but not always, and sometimes there is no explanation
[14:50] (Aufklaren) You're ascribing some sort of spirituality to the concept of consciousness in the first place. I'm saying that it's just an imprecise term for a wide range of actual brain functions.
[14:50] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: I don't see how that is even remotely close to an apt analogy.
[14:51] (RktScntst) OcDoc: in addition, I have not seen any attempt to scientifically verify how accurate Occam's Razor even is.
[14:51] (OcDoc) Yaakov: I agree, but it's still the first attempt to see if something is rational
[14:51] (RktScntst) most simply take it on pure faith or wishful thinking
[14:51] (RktScntst) at least in most hard sciences.. if its simple, it's bound to be wrong. :-)
[14:51] (Aufklaren) RktScntst: It's a logical principle, not a scientific one.
[14:51] (OcDoc) Rocket: it's a tool, not a result
[14:51] (RktScntst) but a tool that ought to be examined and studied. not simply put out there as a bumper sticker slogan
[14:51] (Aufklaren) If you can explain how the sun goes around the earth in entirely naturalistic terms, you don't need to go inventing invisible fairies to drag it.
[14:51] (Aufklaren) ....
[14:51] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: OK, this is interminable. I actually know a lot more about the brain than you do and I have reached my conclusion. You are waving the brain at me and saying "it must be true, it moves my legs and helps me poop". I give up.
[14:51] (Aufklaren) How the earth goes around the sun, I meant.
[14:51] (Aufklaren) Doh.
[14:52] (OcDoc) Rocket: well, it's imprecise on the face of it ... what IS the simplest explanation in every case?
[14:52] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: You're assering that you know more about the brain, but I find that hard to believe when you think there's no evidence it is responsible for consciousness.
[14:52] (RktScntst) Aufklaren: what would Occam's razor say about that orbit in 0 A.D.?
[14:52] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: There's at least a hell of a lot more evidence that it is than, say, the little finger.
[14:52] (OcDoc) Rocket: it's simply a way of approaching a question ... if I have a set of facts and I need two different explanations for the facts, I prefer one that covers all the facts
[14:53] (Aufklaren) RktScntst: Occam's razor doesn't claim a particular point of view is right, just that it is more likely.
[14:53] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: That's a straw man, and a bad one. Try some immaterial example if you want to say something rhetorical.
[14:53] (OcDoc) Aufklaren: thanks
[14:53] (RktScntst) Aufklaren; "more likely".. so you have tested this statistically?
[14:54] (RktScntst) You seem to be holding onto something as being true, without any factual evidence
[14:54] (OcDoc) if I have a choice between potential explanations for a set of facts, I prefer the simpler of the two
[14:54] (RktScntst) "prefer" really has nothing to do with being correct
[14:54] (OcDoc) Rocket: I say "prefer" not "more likely"
[14:54] (Yaakov) Occam's razor cannot be applied to those things outside of logical proof. However, a common mistake is to then leap to the conclusion that the unprovable is perforce, false.
[14:54] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: You're the one suggesting that the brain is an interface to the spiritual. The problem here is that there is no evidence for that whatsoever. The other problem is that, in the absence of that evidence, it's perfectly acceptable to assume - on what we know already - that the brain is perfectly capable of all those functions for itself, even if we don't know the precise method at the moment.
[14:54] (RktScntst) i would "prefer" to use newtonian physics over special relativity.. even thou I know one is incorrect.
[14:54] (OcDoc) Rocket: no, it's assumed intuitively
[14:54] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I didnt say that, I said I DON'T KNOW what it interfaces to.
[14:55] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I said, "I don't know
[14:55] (Yaakov) '
[14:55] (RktScntst) OcDoc: no, you assume it. One without evidence
[14:55] (Yaakov) Scroll back.
[14:55] (RktScntst) but my experience with science is
[14:55] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: Well, that doesn't matter. It doesn't have to interface to anything.
[14:55] (RktScntst) the simple answer is almost always incorrect.
[14:55] (Aufklaren) The suggestion that it interfaces to anything is unsupported and unlikely.
[14:55] (KoBushi) RktScntst then I would suggest that your interpritation of "simple" is not in the same spirit which occam ment
[14:55] (OcDoc) Rocket: true ... mea culpa, but I am not alone ... billions of others use Occam's Razor as a first line of approach, with pretty good success usually
[14:55] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: In any case, we can't conclude this argument logically, so lets stop, OK?
[14:56] (Aufklaren) RktScntst: But that's not what Occam's Razor says. Simple is not the same as "least unnecessarily complex."
[14:56] (KoBushi) RktScntst special relativity fits within Occam's Razor ... because even though newtonian physics is simpler, it doesn't account for all of the facts
[14:56] (OcDoc) Auklaren: "unnecessary" still begs definition
[14:56] (RktScntst) KoBushi: ah, but what woudl Occam's razor say in 1899?
[14:56] (Vulcan) universal physics journal
[14:56] (Yaakov) Occam's Razor is a terribly powerful heuristic. It is very, very useful in scientific method.
[14:57] (RktScntst) In any event, it ihas been my experience.. if a measurement comes out to 2.00000000 perfectly.. something is fucked up with it.
[14:57] (KoBushi) RktScntst the same thing newtonian physicists did?
[14:57] (Aufklaren) RktScntst: Perhaps if you only knew what Newton knew, his explanations invoke the fewest unnecessary entities. Given what we know now, the current model of physics invokes the least entities.
[14:57] (RktScntst) KoBushi: in otherwards, the wrong answer.
[14:57] (RktScntst) Aufklaren: on otherwards, the wrong answer.
[14:57] (KoBushi) RktScntst no, the least incorrect answer
[14:57] (RktScntst) lol
[14:57] (KoBushi) :)
[14:57] (Yaakov) Unlikely things do occur, just infrequently.
[14:58] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I love you man. You are so rational is makes kittens weep.
[14:58] (KoBushi) RktScntst because, as you know, we can't say the same won't happen to special relativity
[14:58] (RktScntst) Yaakov: actually, unlikely events is the most likely ;-)
[14:58] (RktScntst) KoBushi: bingo.
[14:58] (RktScntst) Yaakov: the lottery is a perfect example of the strong frequency of infrequent events :-)
[14:58] (Yaakov) RktScntst: Complexity and unklikelyhood are two different things.
[14:58] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: I don't see how it's possible to be too rational (within reason).
[14:59] (KoBushi) logic isn't a tool to find "the right answer" ... it is a tool to find the most accurate answer from a given input
[14:59] (Aufklaren) yaakov: For example, assassinating lice-infected children as I mentioned earlier.
[14:59] (KoBushi) as my professor used to say... garbage in, garbage out
[14:59] (RktScntst) Anyways, I would be curious to a statistical analysis of the use of Occam's Razor. My money is on, it is not a good tool.
[14:59] (RktScntst) For the one having to use it, well.. is lacking a strong arguement otherwise.
[14:59] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I do, but I have been around a lot longer and used to think very much the way you do. I evolved into a different outlook. Doesn't make it right, but that's how it us.
[14:59] (Yaakov) is
[14:59] (RktScntst) time for the news
[14:59] (KoBushi) RktScntst why? Newtonian physics changed the world for a long time
[15:00] (Aufklaren) RktScntsT: But you're still thinking that Occam's Razor suggests the RIGHT answer. It doesn't. It suggests only the MOST LIKELY.
[15:00] (RktScntst) Aufklaren: um, what do you think statistical studies often deal with? "duh".
[15:00] (RktScntst) percentages, etc
[15:00] (Aufklaren) RktScntst: Well, then it's self-evident. The most probable is the most probable. You don't need to run a study to prove that.
[15:00] (RktScntst) but time for news.. bbl.
[15:01] (RktScntst) Aufklaren: that is not what Occam's says thou.
[15:01] (RktScntst) think about it for a while
[15:01] (Yaakov) RktScntst: Your lottery example is a perfect demonstration of unlikely events being rare.
[15:03] (Aufklaren) RktScntst: It is proven constantly. When you go to find that a piece of cake is missing from the counter, do you assume that it's your over-indulgent spouse, or do you assume that a secret band of fairies from the planet Nargolon has stolen it to power their spaceships?
[15:04] (Aufklaren) RktScnt: The fact that most of the time the least unnecessarily complex explanation suffices is evidence of itself.
[15:04] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Just for the record, your position is perfectly sensible (though I think overstated) and it is respectable.
[15:05] (KoBushi) is 6% a good rate on a 6mo CD?
[15:05] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: So is yours. I think you're wrong, but at least you don't argue from a position of ignorance. ;)
[15:05] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I try. I am, however, infinitely ignorant.
[15:06] (redfish) consciousness isnt meant to describe something physically mechanical, its meant to describe why you actually experience being in the world rather than people being soulless automata
[15:06] (redfish) if you dont understand that you dont understand what people mean when they say consciousness
[15:07] (Aufklaren) Consciousness is meant to describe the cominbed aware experience of a range of physically mechanical processes, at least in my view.
[15:07] (Yaakov) KoBushi: Where are you getting that?
[15:07] (KoBushi) redfish so then, consciousness it's self may not even exist
[15:07] (KoBushi) Yaakov my bank
[15:07] (KoBushi) or, may be, anyway
[15:07] (Yaakov) KoBushi: Which bank?
[15:07] (KoBushi) Yaakov East Carolina Bank
[15:07] (Aufklaren) KoBushi: What does the CD bit stand for?
[15:07] (KoBushi) Aufklaren hum, you know I don't know lol
[15:07] (Yaakov) Here a few months ago, 4.9% was the best we could find.
[15:08] (Yaakov) Certificate of Deposit.
[15:08] (Aufklaren) Are we talking about interest rates here?
[15:08] (Yaakov) It is a non-liquid financial instrument.
[15:08] (Yaakov) Yes.
[15:08] (KoBushi) Aufklaren yes, but in positive, not being billed :P
[15:08] (Aufklaren) Ah, right.
[15:08] (Aufklaren) Now I'm with you.
[15:08] (Aufklaren) I was wondering if you were asking whether 6% was a good interest rate on a loan or something.
[15:09] (KoBushi) I'm thinking about setting aside the $ I'll need to pay income tax with into a CD until time to pay taxes w/ it
[15:09] (redfish) well its a matter of what youre talking about. cognitive scientists often think theyve solved the problem of consciousness when theyre talking about something completely different than what philosophers are talking about when they say consciousness.
[15:09] (SweetLeaf) Three dimocrap vets against the war and I could not count the vets that support it
[15:10] (Harsen) Aufklaren sucks.
[15:10] (KoBushi) SweetLeaf the marines I know seem eternally neutral on it
[15:10] (Aufklaren) Aye, but at least I don't swallow.
[15:10] (Aufklaren) KoBushi: Same here. I know a few guys who have served in Iraq, and most seem to be not of a particularly strong opinion either way. They think the job they're doing there right now is good, though some wonder if it's starting to become futile.
[15:10] (SweetLeaf) I just seen on the news three vets with folded flags protesting the war at the same time there were countless vets with pubs supporting it
[15:11] (SweetLeaf) I also think Joe Liberman is an american hero the only dimocrap that is not saying his vote was misused
[15:12] (Aufklaren) If it wasn't for his boneheaded position on censorship, I'd like Lieberman.
[15:12] (SweetLeaf) only thing keeping us from winning is congress and the senate
[15:12] (Aufklaren) I agree with him more than, say, the entire board of Democratic Presidential nominees. But I still dislike him on a personal level. I don't know why.
[15:12] (SweetLeaf) because they dont put the country first elections are first
[15:13] (SweetLeaf) I like him cause he has values he wont retreat on not like the others he has pricipals
[15:29] (Harsen) I don't mind Joe Lieberman
[15:30] (Harsen) on FP issues
[15:30] (Harsen) hes not so hot on domestic issues
[15:34] (Yaakov) Aufklaren?
[15:35] (niller) [00:12] (Aufklaren) Aye, but at least I don't swallow.
[15:35] (SweetLeaf) it dont matter if you like him or not he has stuck to his vote unlike the other assholes including the republacrats
[15:36] (niller) i think he is cute
[15:36] (SweetLeaf) I like a man or woman that means what they vote on
[15:37] (SweetLeaf) the rest were politicing while they were discussing to go to war Afghanstan was a real success and everyone in congress thought our armies were invencible now it has not gone right and they scram like cocroaches
[15:37] (niller) sorry - been away and just joined again
[15:38] (niller) i support afghanistan - a war that amde sense
[15:38] (SweetLeaf) I was talking about joe liberman
[15:39] (niller) always tried to make sense of american politics - worked with teenagers when i was a kid
[15:39] (SweetLeaf) american politics have taken a turn for the worse
[15:39] (niller) i agree
[15:39] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: what's up?
[15:40] (SweetLeaf) they get voted in to call each other names
[15:40] (niller) i called you cute
[15:40] (Aufklaren) Me?
[15:40] (Aufklaren) I'm not cute. Dashingly, devastatingly handsome perhaps. But not cute. ;)
[15:40] (SweetLeaf) This Harry Reid needs a good punch in the mouth
[15:40] (niller) haha
[15:41] (niller) ill use that somewhere else
[15:41] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Just a second.
[15:41] (Aufklaren) Second's up!
[15:41] (Aufklaren) :P
[15:41] (niller) give him one more
[15:42] (Aufklaren) That's up too.
[15:42] (niller) haha
[15:43] (niller) no mercy - yaakov sounds russian to me
[15:43] (Aufklaren) http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44004000/jpg/_44004191_whalereveal.jpg
[15:43] (Aufklaren) Whoops
[15:43] (Aufklaren) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/sci_nat_enl_1184686513/html/1.stm
[15:43] (Aufklaren) That's it.
[15:44] (niller) blobs!
[15:45] (SweetLeaf) of course man killed the fucking whale
[15:45] (niller) so we want to visit mars and the moon (again) but still havent sorted the planet
[15:45] (SweetLeaf) it didnt get a desease
[15:45] (SweetLeaf) and just die
[15:45] (niller) i fucking hate sea animals
[15:46] (niller) but ill ahve to live with it
[15:46] (SweetLeaf) I love the ocean
[15:46] (niller) damn scary to me
[15:46] (SweetLeaf) been on the pacific coast all my life
[15:46] (KoBushi) niller the sooner mars is terraformed the sooner we can belive climatologists actually know anything
[15:46] (niller) animals bigger than yourself?
[15:47] (KoBushi) (or, show that they don't)
[15:47] (niller) the predator in me says kill
[15:47] (niller) sure they look nice
[15:47] (SweetLeaf) I used to surf in malibu and watch the pods of whales and killer whales migrate south
[15:47] (SweetLeaf) at malibu
[15:47] (Aufklaren) Killer whale is such a misleading name.
[15:47] (Aufklaren) Orca is better.
[15:47] (niller) im still scared of them
[15:47] (Aufklaren) I mean, they're not actually whales.
[15:47] (SweetLeaf) what ever it was neat
[15:47] (Aufklaren) They're a sort of dolphin, aren't they?
[15:48] (niller) mamal
[15:48] (SweetLeaf) I have see sharks live n up too close
[15:48] (Harsen) Whales are Mammals
[15:48] (Aufklaren) Of course. Dolphins and whales are both mammals. :P
[15:48] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Buy me one of these: http://www.idquantique.com/products/quantis.htm
[15:48] (niller) related
[15:48] (Aufklaren) But whales and dolphins are different.
[15:48] (Aufklaren) And a killer whale is actually a dolphin, not a whale.
[15:48] (niller) dolphins are like dogs
[15:48] (WyldOcsar) killer whales are better with steak sauce than with tartar sauce
[15:48] (niller) whales seems to smart to be safe
[15:48] (KoBushi) as I recall, whales don't have a dorsal fin
[15:49] (SweetLeaf) when I was twelve this guy brought a shark on shore that waas bigger than his boat it was huge
[15:49] (Harsen) Yaakov, isn't that useless for almost all everyday tasks
[15:49] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: That seems a bit unnecessary. ;)
[15:49] (Harsen) Yaakov, Unless you're doing quantum physics?
[15:49] (SweetLeaf) and I was surfing out there heh
[15:49] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: In what context could that possibly be useful outside of a particle accelerator? :P
[15:49] (Yaakov) Harsen: I like my numbders RANDOM.
[15:49] (Yaakov) Harsen: Great for cryptography.
[15:49] (niller) where do you surf?
[15:49] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: I do security, so I would love to have real randomness available.
[15:50] (SweetLeaf) senate having a slumber party
[15:50] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: I think in practical terms, computer-generated randomness will suffice. ;)
[15:50] (niller) work on it - randomnesss is pretty cool
[15:50] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: pseudorandom is low rent.
[15:50] (Aufklaren) Yaakov: I don't think it would be possible to break a computer-generated random code when it would be impossible to break a quantum-level random code, all other things being equal.
[15:51] (Aufklaren) But I don't know anything about quantum physics OR cryptography.
[15:51] (e-Hernick) Al-Jazeera reports that Iran has released a brand new video game, produced with a budget of 300 million Rials! Iranian nuclear experts have been kidnapped by the US military and held in Iraq and Israel, and you have to rescue them...
[15:51] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Actually, practically speaking good deterministic generators are good enough. But good enough is the enemy of better!
[15:52] (Aufklaren) lol
[15:52] (Yaakov) Aufklaren: Until you see your way to buying me one, I will get my bits free: http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/
[15:52] (Aufklaren) "But good enough is the enemy of better" = rallying cry of the World Congress of Anal Retentives.
[15:52] (niller) i was gone in a drunken supor - this muslim woman just seemed cool to me - she made sense and the echo made it look coolhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ
[15:52] (niller) stupor
[15:53] (e-Hernick) Good news, RCTV is finally back, with cable and satellite feeds which can reach up to 30% of Venezuelan households
[15:53] (gopp) e-Hernick that sucks
[15:53] (gopp) that censorhip
[15:53] (niller) a muslim trying to make sense seems good to me
[15:53] (gopp) if it can't go on fta
[15:53] (Aufklaren) Whereas before it was available on terrestrial TV.
[15:53] (gopp) Aufklaren yea
[15:53] (Aufklaren) And thus available to 100% of television-owning households
[15:54] (e-Hernick) gopp: oh, it's worse than censorship, the evil Chavez seized RCTV's broadcasting equipment
[15:54] (gopp) e-Hernick oh yea I Forgot
[15:54] (e-Hernick) Aufklaren: well, it wasn't quite 100%, some remote areas of venezuela didn't get RCTV
[15:54] (niller) it should have been available on no terestial television
[15:54] (gopp) e-Hernick you got proof
[15:55] (e-Hernick) proof of what?
[15:55] (e-Hernick) that they came back online?
[15:55] (niller) yes
[15:55] (gopp) no
[15:55] (niller) the aliens are out to get you
[15:55] (gopp) that not 100%
[15:55] (e-Hernick) http://news.google.ca/news?hl=en&ned=&ie=UTF-8&ncl=1118240709
[15:55] (gopp) that not 100% feed
[15:55] (gopp) that a lie
[15:55] (Aufklaren) Orcas have been known to co-operate with humans in the hunting of other whales. One well-known example occurred near the port of Eden in South-Eastern Australia in the 1920s. A pod of Orcas, which included amongst its members a distinctive male called Old Tom, would assist whalers in hunting baleen whales.
[15:55] (Aufklaren) The Orcas would find the target whales, shepherd them into Twofold Bay and then alert the whalers to their presence and often help to kill the whales. Old Tom's role was commonly to alert the human whalers to the presence of a baleen whale in the bay by breaching or tailslapping at Kiah river mouth where the Davidson family had their tiny cottages.
[15:55] (Aufklaren) This role endeared him to the whalers and led to the idea that he was "leader of the pack", although such a role was more likely taken by a female as is more typical in Orca cultures. After the harpooning, some of the Orcas would even grab the ropes in their teeth and aid the whalers in hauling.
[15:55] (Aufklaren) The skeleton of Old Tom is on display at the Eden Killer Whale Museum, and significant wear marks still exist on his teeth from repeatedly grabbing fast moving ropes.
[15:55] (Aufklaren) In return for their help, the whalers allowed the Orcas to eat the tongue and lips of the whale before hauling it ashore. The Orcas would then also feed on the many fish and birds that would show up to pick at the smaller scraps and runoff from the fishing.
[15:55] (Aufklaren) oops
[15:55] (Aufklaren) Didn't mean to paste that much.
[15:56] (Aufklaren) Apologies.
[15:56] (e-Hernick) gopp: RCTV couldn't possibly have had 100% coverage.. 98% maybe, but not 100%
[15:56] (e-Hernick) venezuela is big
[15:56] (niller) trying to make contact
[15:56] (niller) man and whale
[15:56] (e-Hernick) But RCTV did cover almost all markets in venezuela before Chavez shut them down
[15:57] (niller) i like public television - especially if the ov pretended to like them
[15:57] (KoBushi) Aufklaren yes, and it all ended when most of the baleen whales were killed off... and one whaler resorted to killing Old Tom instead
[15:57] (niller) *gov
[15:57] (KoBushi) Aufklaren since, no killer whales in that region have helped the whalers
[15:58] (niller) ill kill killer whales first
[15:58] (KoBushi) there was like a 2hr show about it on Discovery
[15:58] (Aufklaren) KoBushi: So they were helping us and we turned on them?
[15:58] * _Forbin Fox News Alert......Plane crash in Brazil.....150-170 feared dead
[15:58] (_Forbin) Oh my
[15:58] (KoBushi) or History? something
[15:58] (Aufklaren) KoBushi: Well, aren't we just a lot of bastards?
[15:58] (KoBushi) Aufklaren well, I didn't do it
[15:58] (niller) while people argue some 'the poor animals'
[15:58] (niller) ill think the same of man
[15:58] (Aufklaren) KoBushi: Using the collective 'we' here. I didn't either. ;)
[15:58] (KoBushi) liar! you spoiled the deal!
[15:58] (KoBushi) haha
[15:59] (niller) so lets produce more plastic
[15:59] (Aufklaren) Yep. I went back to 1930 and killed Old Tom.
[15:59] (Aufklaren) I think it's actually pretty amazing, that story.
[15:59] (KoBushi) Aufklaren but it hints at a pretty complex communications between Orca that the assistance stopped with 1 betrayal
[15:59] (niller) tom deserved it
[15:59] (niller) damn 30s
[15:59] (KoBushi) indicates that it wasn't some sort of instinctual activity
[15:59] (KoBushi) to me, anyway
[16:00] (panini) what betrayal
[16:00] (panini) oh
[16:00] (panini) n/m
[16:00] (Aufklaren) People tend to think of humans and animals as two completely separate groups - one intelligent and self-aware, the other low and bestial. It's interesting to see there's a continuity of intelligence and self-awareness, from humans at the top, below to chimpanzees and dolphins, then to, say, dogs and pigs, through to lizards, insects, bacteria, etc.
[16:00] (panini) make that into a movie
[16:00] (KoBushi) panini it could make a good movie
[16:01] (Aufklaren) KoBushi: Right. It obviously demonstrates advanced social skills.
[16:01] (panini) i'm particularly fond of orcas
[16:01] (KoBushi) Aufklaren yeah, I've had several dogs that didn't need "trained" you just have to convey the message of what you want in a way that they understand
[16:01] (panini) they're incredibly intelligent
[16:01] (Aufklaren) I like Orcas, but they can be very "cruel" (to use a human judgement).
[16:02] (Aufklaren) They torture their prey. Have fun with it.
[16:02] (Aufklaren) Beautiful creatures, though.
[16:02] (panini) that's just for fun
[16:02] (KoBushi) I think perhaps cruelty is a sign of intelligence
[16:02] (panini) don't use PC on whales
[16:02] (Aufklaren) KoBushi: That's a good point. It seems the more intelligent one gets, the greater the capacity for cruelty.
[16:02] (KoBushi) I mean.. the greater the intelligence, the greater the capacity for cruelty
[16:02] (td) lol they are setting up beds in the senate for tonight
[16:02] (Aufklaren) KoBushi: Chimpanzees, for example, are the only other species than humans that engage in "lethal raiding."
[16:02] (panini) i've seen orcas play volleyball with dead seals
[16:02] (TWThomas) Aufklaren : do you have to have a License to own a CB in the UK ?
[16:03] (Aufklaren) TWThomas: Radio? No.
[16:03] (KoBushi) td oh? why?
[16:03] (panini) td the hookers are getting ready for an all night session too
[16:03] (TWThomas) Aufklaren : yes the Radio
[16:03] (td) Kobushi: Harry Reid is forcing 30 straight hours of debate tonight
[16:03] (td) http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070717/480/060243d973e94cfbb5cbc2db03abef28&g=events/iraq/082701iraqplane
[16:03] (td) check that pic.. they are rolling the beds in
[16:03] (Aufklaren) Chimpanzees will get into a prearranged group of young males and stalk silently through the jungle, bypassing feeding opportunities, to kill a member of an opposing group.
[16:03] (Aufklaren) No other species does that.
[16:03] (panini) it makes no sense... the dems are filibustering their own bill
[16:03] (gopp) td wow
[16:03] (gopp) td what is this
[16:03] (panini) how stupid is that?
[16:03] (Aufklaren) Many species kill their own in battles over territory, mates, food, resources, etc.
[16:04] (ezshock) Ried is not very confident. Anyone else notice that? He always looks down, mumbles so you can hardly hear him
[16:04] (ezshock) s/Ried/Reid
[16:04] (Aufklaren) Only humans and chimpanzees actively hunt out each other to kill for the sake of killing.
[16:04] (KoBushi) Aufklaren I often think about the claim that "violence doesn't solve anything" ... but it does
[16:04] (panini) yeah, but only humans and bonobos have orgies
[16:04] (ezshock) You would think a senator would have more confidence when he speaks
[16:05] (KoBushi) Humans as a whole can never be desuaded from using violence to reach thier ends, because it's incredibly effective.
[16:05] (Aufklaren) In fact, chimpanzees and predeveloped human tribal societies are almost exactly the same in lethal raiding.
[16:05] (niller) i like monkeys
[16:05] (Aufklaren) KoBushi: Exactly. Violence isn't an irrational outburst. It works. Which is why it's used so frequently.
[16:05] (niller) last feces throwing species
[16:05] (panini) niller, would you like to touch my monkey?
[16:05] (td) God made apes like us
[16:05] (ezshock) niller: They throw it in prison
[16:05] (Aufklaren) panini: Bonobos are fantastic. They have sex for the fun of it. Lesbian sex, incestuous sex... They do it to reassure each other, even when there is no chance of procreation. They do it all day.
[16:06] (td) kind of a parrelel type thing
[16:06] (ezshock) niller: They also throw urine in prison
[16:06] (Aufklaren) I should have said "homosexual sex," not just lesbian sex, because the males do it too.
[16:06] (niller) haha. i read books in prison
[16:06] (Aufklaren) They're also matriarchal.
[16:06] (panini) (niller) last feces throwing species (- wrong!!!
[16:06] (niller) have to do something
[16:06] (ezshock) You've been?
[16:06] (panini) muslims also throw feces at Gitmo
[16:06] (Aufklaren) Female bonobos will make alliances with other female bonobos outside of their immediate family or "tribal" group to prevent violence.
[16:06] (niller) man dont throw feces that much
[16:07] (panini) see above
[16:07] (niller) we're too good for it
[16:07] (ezshock) lol
[16:07] (Aufklaren) So when one group of bonobos happens upon a strange group of bonobos, the female bonobos of each tend to have sex and ally with each other to prevent the males from attacking each other.
[16:07] (td) I throw my feces from time to time, its a great stress reducer
[16:07] (niller) smarter - it works
[16:07] (Aufklaren) It's truly fascinating.
[16:07] * n00b281 is now known as OcDoc
[16:07] (ezshock) So, I am curious why the gun grabbers haven't jumped on this fellow with the sniper rifle who shot his wife
[16:07] (panini) probably he was a democrat
[16:08] (niller) guns works?
[16:08] (ezshock) They're always so quick to jump on "gun violence" (as they put it)
[16:08] * OcDoc cleans up the channel after td
[16:08] (niller) i dunno - i just learned this - going to everywhere else in the world people are fucking crazy
[16:08] (niller) will shooot you
[16:08] (niller) guns are apparently normal
[16:09] (niller) and a way to argue
[16:09] (niller) it work for criminals too
[16:09] (niller) so we need more of them
[16:09] (ezshock) Kind of creepy to think you could be walking around and your ex Marine sniper husband was getting ready to pop a shot at you
[16:09] (niller) its just real - guns are real
[16:09] (niller) people are crazy
[16:09] (ezshock) Girl never knew what hit her =\
[16:09] (OcDoc) what we need is for the nastiest people to be killed by nicer people with guns ... eventually guns will no longer be necessary
[16:10] (niller) my view on humanity
[16:10] (me40) god created human being, cold made them all equals
[16:10] (me40) god created human being, coltmade them all equals
[16:10] (OcDoc) ezshock: I don't have an ex-Marine husband
[16:10] (niller) i agree sometimes - killing poeple works
[16:10] (ezshock) Well that's a good thing!
[16:10] (OcDoc) ezshock: I don't have an ex-Marine sniper husband either
[16:10] (niller) should be with the gun nuts now
[16:10] (ezshock) Even better!
[16:11] (OcDoc) me40: keep trying until you get it right
[16:11] (me40) you can kill people, but that doesn't mean their ideas will disappear at the same time
[16:11] (niller) imagine using ideas - you make people making choices
[16:11] (OcDoc) me40: no, but their ideas will be heard much less often
[16:12] (niller) a poeple herding goats dont question god
[16:12] (niller) person
[16:12] (me40) OcDoc, neither
[16:12] (niller) im just saying that people with ideas are more dangerous than guns
[16:12] (me40) OcDoc, when a singer dies.. you hear about him far more, then when he was alive
[16:12] (niller) look at Iraq
[16:12] (ezshock) I trust my cat more than I trust people =D
[16:12] (niller) guns worked like a charm
[16:13] (OcDoc) me40: but not about his ideas
[16:13] (niller) cats are cool
[16:13] (me40) ideas / same, but my point of view, you are free to disagree
[16:13] (panini) why did NK shut down their reactors?
[16:13] (niller) ill respect your idea
[16:13] (me40) he was good, he was nice, he was about...
[16:13] (ezshock) panini: To get to the other side?
[16:13] (OcDoc) panini: to give the liverals ammunition
[16:14] (ezshock) panini: Oh, wait it wasn't a joke
[16:14] (OcDoc) ezshock: zing! good one!
[16:14] (ezshock) What is a liveral?
[16:14] (ezshock) A *living* liberal
[16:14] (OcDoc) ezshock: whatever you like
[16:14] (niller) take some time to find peace
[16:14] (OcDoc) liberal with a liver? I dunno ...
[16:14] (Aufklaren) panini: Because it's a concession they can afford in return for nice things. They already have enough nukes to raze Seoul (and it's 11 million people) - all the blackmail they need.
[16:14] (ezshock) We made a word today
[16:15] (Aufklaren) it's=its
[16:15] (OcDoc) liberals are politically active people who use their guts instead of their brains
[16:15] (niller) who had nukes?
[16:15] (ezshock) Liberals have guts?
[16:15] (niller) dont make stuff up
[16:15] (Aufklaren) North Korea HAS nukes.
[16:15] (ezshock) And here I took them all for cowards
[16:15] (niller) aaah
[16:15] (ezshock) My whole life has been a lie!
[16:15] (niller) old news
[16:15] (OcDoc) ezshock: therefore ... liverals ... QED
[16:15] (OcDoc) ezshock: not guts, GUTS
[16:16] (OcDoc) as in intestines
[16:16] (niller) is that why you invaded the crazy man called iRaq
[16:16] (OcDoc) livers ... spleens etc
[16:16] (Aufklaren) niller: Yes, but they shut down a nuclear reactor in the past week. Which is a small step, but not that important considering it's only sealed (not dismantled), and they already have all the nukes they need.
[16:16] (niller) it is big
[16:16] (niller) i fucking hate NK
[16:16] (ezshock) OcDoc: Hm, strange way to make policy
[16:16] (ezshock) OcDoc: With body parts =D
[16:16] (OcDoc) ezshock: yes it is
[16:16] (niller) worse than iraq
[16:16] (Aufklaren) If I was a body part, I'd be an oversized penis.
[16:16] (Aufklaren) Or an adrenal gland.
[16:16] (Aufklaren) Something aggressive.
[16:17] (OcDoc) ezshock: they also come up with opinions sometimes by consulting their navels
[16:17] (ezshock) Aufklaren: But, are you just a sandy vagina instead?
[16:17] (niller) they just eat their own people if they starve
[16:17] (ezshock) (just kidding)
[16:17] (niller) NK is fucking sick
[16:17] (niller) and they do eat their own
[16:17] (OcDoc) niller: they don't think of them as people
[16:18] (niller) its not even that - the leader is GOD
[16:18] (ezshock) niller: Then if I just don't believe, will he go away?
[16:18] (niller) no'
[16:18] (pntkl) yes
[16:18] (pntkl) :P
[16:18] (pntkl) in your own mind
[16:18] (niller) but invading Iraqw was the worst move ever
[16:19] (niller) nothing to do with 911
[16:19] (pntkl) i disagree
[16:19] (pntkl) i say it should have been done sooner
[16:19] (niller) no. hitting people on their knees dont work
[16:19] (pntkl) from the point of failure to comply to the concessions of surrender after desert storm
[16:19] (Sbrns4GW) niller: i disagree too
[16:19] (niller) dont giv e them a new enemy
[16:20] (niller) the middle east is people who is kept down by religion - then america uses god to keep them down
[16:20] (Sbrns4GW) niller: did you feel that way in the run-up to the iraq war, or were you supportive of the decision then (as Hillary, Edwards, and others were)?
[16:20] (Sbrns4GW) niller: and how did you feel when Bill Clinton made regime change in Iraq official US policy?
[16:20] (niller) i was against it before it started - i am still for killing osama
[16:20] (niller) a saudi
[16:21] (pntkl) i say osama should live, no more martyrs ... please :P
[16:21] (niller) let him die and no one know
[16:21] (ezshock) I think he's already dead
[16:21] (pntkl) he may be
[16:21] (Sbrns4GW) niller: and who do you think we're fighting in iraq right now? there have been X car bombs in iraq in the past month. Who do you think was responsible for the majority of those?
[16:21] (niller) me too
[16:21] (ezshock) And has been dead for quite some time
[16:21] * EDinATL10 is now known as EDinATL
[16:21] (niller) Iraq = oil and war in europe
[16:21] (niller) so fuck you too
[16:22] (Sbrns4GW) ezshock: he's been quiet for a long time before and then resurfaced
[16:22] (Sbrns4GW) iraq = war in europe? how?
[16:22] (pntkl) i can see why you're so stubborn, now ... just look at that language :P
[16:22] (Aufklaren) Osama should be put on trial, unless it comes down to killing him or letting him stay free. Presenting the evidence against him would shut the conspiracy theorists up once and for all. It would be a massive ideological defeat to Al-Qaeda. Allowing him to be a martyr would be unfortunate.
[16:22] (TWThomas) Osama Bin Laden's critens in Al-Qaida is using his image as to make him seem alive and it's not working
[16:22] (niller) keep the war there - it makes sense?!
[16:22] (ezshock) Sbrns4GW: Yea, if you trust the "resurface"
[16:22] (niller) iraq has nothing to do with anything
[16:22] (pntkl) haha
[16:22] (Sbrns4GW) ezshock: last time he made a tape, i think there were some references to fairly recent events that would be hard to fake.
[16:22] (niller) its - he threatned my dad
[16:23] (niller) and i fucking love america
[16:23] (Sbrns4GW) niller: so why'd you say it " = ... war in Europe"?
[16:23] (ezshock) niller: Your dad?
[16:23] (niller) dont make an idiot do that
[16:23] (pntkl) in your mind, but i doubt you have clearly or concisely analyzed the facts presented to you by your peers
[16:23] (ezshock) niller: Was your dad no polite while having him over for dinner?
[16:23] (ezshock) s/no/not/
[16:23] (niller) my dad made nuclear weapons for you back i nthe cold war
[16:23] (ezshock) Yay!
[16:24] (niller) you probably saw his cool viceos during the first iraq war
[16:24] (pntkl) why do we care about niller's dad?
[16:24] (pntkl) :P
[16:24] (niller) somebod running from a building - my dad saying - i made that
[16:24] (ezshock) Yea, super cool man!
[16:24] (niller) amreica knew my dad wqas a commie when he was young
[16:25] (ezshock) Indeed. Why *do* we care about niller's dad?
[16:25] (niller) hmm imagine that with spelling
[16:25] (niller) because he hlped sick people
[16:25] (CometBaby) Have you seen the new QCar .. its an armed anti-terrorist vehicle. http://navlog.org/q_car.wmv
[16:25] (CometBaby) sorry didn't mean to be in color
[16:25] (niller) 'we need more weapons'
[16:25] (ezshock) niller: How old are you? Don't you have any accomplishments of your own?
[16:25] (Yaakov) CometBaby: You weren't.
[16:25] (niller) killing people helps earth
[16:25] (CometBaby) hmm I htink I need to change my settings .. for some reason text is in color
[16:25] (CometBaby) lol
[16:25] (Yaakov) You aren't
[16:25] (ezshock) You should be proud of your accomplishments, not your fathers
[16:26] (niller) im not sure i agree
[16:26] (CometBaby) must be just my text as I see it
[16:26] (niller) so i better kill you
[16:26] (Yaakov) Only on your display.
[16:26] (CometBaby) right
[16:26] (CometBaby) fixed it
[16:26] (niller) who cares - we can live on mars
[16:26] (niller) idoiits around
[16:26] (niller) sorry - idiots abound
[16:26] (pntkl) why do you insist on embarassing yourself? :D
[16:26] (ezshock) niller: Are you some random crazy robot that someone spilt coffee on?
[16:26] (pntkl) grab foot, insert mouth :D
[16:27] (CometBaby) listening to Judy Garland .. my husband came home with a new CD .. The Very Best of Judy Garland. Gawd she is great !!
[16:27] (ezshock) Eeep
[16:27] (ezshock) She ranks up there with Bill O on the "blowhard" list
[16:27] (niller) sorry had to take a piss
[16:27] (niller) dont worry - i hate the russians even moew
[16:27] (niller) more
[16:28] (niller) fucking commies - talk about stupid people
[16:28] (pntkl) don't forget to let us know when you pass gas ... lol
[16:28] (pntkl) tell me, what do you know about communism?
[16:28] (CometBaby) niller go sit in the corner with this dirty gym sock in your mouth and think this over.
[16:28] (sals) hello friends
[16:28] (pntkl) hey sals
[16:28] (sals) communism was oppressive and ruinous
[16:29] (pntkl) if it was so, how did it survive so long?
[16:29] (sals) it rewards all the wrong behaviors
[16:29] (pntkl) i'm against communism, don't let the question confuse you ... ;)
[16:29] (sals) it is completely against human nature
[16:29] (pntkl) what is human nature
[16:29] (pntkl) it can't be the utopian ideal, that's for sure
[16:30] (sals) because it was enforced by iron fisted fascist regimes
[16:30] (pntkl) ah yes
[16:30] (pntkl) is socialism the precursor to communism?
[16:30] (sals) not necessarily
[16:30] (pntkl) :D
[16:31] (pntkl) facism, on the other hand ... is the underhanded force that exists to warp the minds of men many times over
[16:32] (sals) that definition is lame
[16:32] (pntkl) that was a description, that wasn't an encompassing definition
[16:33] (sals) fascism is a way overused word
[16:33] (pntkl) its an over generalization, but it at least can describe something that is tangible at some point
[16:34] (Yaakov) CometBaby: http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=7289405
[16:34] (pntkl) and the point i'm thinking about is that facists don't just get there telling you they are there to be a dictator, hard or soft
[16:35] (pntkl) they say it in other ways
[16:35] (sals) have you studied fascism?
[16:35] (pntkl) not in depth, i have experienced it
[16:35] (Aufklaren) pntkl: On the contrary, fascist dictators have historically made their own dictatorship a central component of their propaganda.
[16:36] (Aufklaren) pntkl: Why else do you think Hitler had Germany chanting Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer?
[16:36] (Aufklaren) Fascism is all about the supreme authority of the state invested in a single charismatic ruler.
[16:36] (Aufklaren) Mussolini and Hitler were quite explicit about it.
[16:36] (pntkl) look, if you think they are going to tell you that what they are doing is facist and that they are going to eventually ruin the sovereign land, and possibly others
[16:37] (pntkl) i lost my train of thought
[16:37] (Aufklaren) Well, they did explicitly describe themselves as fascist.
[16:37] (pntkl) hehe
[16:37] (Aufklaren) Mussolini used the term proudly.
[16:37] (Aufklaren) Of course they didn't claim they were going to eventually ruin their countries, because they didn't think they would.
[16:37] (Yaakov) CometBaby: This is more concise: http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=6284730
[16:38] (pntkl) they explicitly elated facism to that of a godhead, almost ... at least that's how i have thought of it
[16:38] (Aufklaren) Anti-individualistic, the Fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal, will of man as a historic entity
[16:38] (Aufklaren) That's Mussolini's own words in "The Doctrine of Fascism."
[16:39] (pntkl) and i'm saying if the people knew what their true actions would have produced, would they have followed herr adolf die flicken hitler
[16:40] (gopp) sweet
[16:40] (gopp) check it out
[16:40] (gopp) two experts in non-linear dynamics, Gert van der Heijden and Eugene Starostin of University College London, have developed an algebraic equation that describes the Möbius strip
[16:40] (pntkl) nice
[16:40] (pntkl) ;)
[16:40] (gopp) Möbius Strip Riddle Solved
[16:40] (gopp) pntkl so how long did it take you to slove htis
[16:40] (gopp) :)
[16:40] (gopp) ths
[16:40] (CometBaby) yaak ..mean lookin weapons .. lol
[16:41] (RangerDog) Fascinating debate on C-SPAN 2 right now. On the Iraq War. Will continue all night.
[16:41] (Yaakov) CometBaby: miniguns are scary.
[16:41] (pntkl) i don't particularly find myself wondering about the algebraic expression for a Mobius Strip :P
[16:41] (sals) hah u mean that stupid harry reid stunt!
[16:41] (Sbrns4GW) RangerDog: what would you like to see happen in Iraq?
[16:41] (sals) ?
[16:41] (Sbrns4GW) RangerDog: if you were the President, what would you do?
[16:42] (gopp) pntkl who ever firgued that ot
[16:42] (gopp) out
[16:42] (RangerDog) Sbrns, I don't have an answer. If I were president, I'd have to focus on it a lot more than I have. Then I'd have a solution.
[16:42] (gopp) must be a brain
[16:42] (gopp) http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/rs/pqtwants.gif
[16:43] (CometBaby) Hypocrisy Alert .. Hypocrisy Alert
[16:43] (CometBaby) ONLY one week after Live Earth, Al Gore's green credentials slipped while hosting his daughter's wedding in Beverly Hills.
[16:43] (CometBaby) Gore and his guests at the weekend ceremony dined on Chilean sea bass - arguably one of the world's most threatened fish species.
[16:43] (pntkl) if you think a brain that has figured that out, and never told the world ... there must be a reason for that ;)
[16:44] (hans--) Chilean sea bass is not an endangered species.
[16:44] (hans--) According to the University of Florida.
[16:44] (RangerDog) Sbrns, do you have thoughts on the Iraq situation?
[16:45] (pntkl) i think gore had potential but was beaten down quite a bit, under the noise floor
[16:45] (pntkl) it goes both ways in the world ... if your peers don't respect you, you're scum ;)
[16:45] (Aufklaren) I think it's illegal to hunt Chilean sea bass in the wild, but it's a farmed fish and it's perfectly acceptable to eat it if it's farmed.
[16:45] (hans--) I also am willing to bet Mr. Gore wasn't in the kitchen making up the list of items that were going to be served.
[16:45] (hans--) But hey, that's just me.
[16:46] (redfish) i want to eat chiliean sea bass
[16:46] (RangerDog) Me, too.
[16:46] (Sbrns4GW) RangerDog: my uneducated and ill-informed opinion is that pulling out now would be far worse than staying in, especially with what I see as promising signs from the surge,
[16:46] (Aufklaren) I love sea bass.
[16:46] (pntkl) sounds good
[16:46] (redfish) youre not invited pntkl
[16:46] (pntkl) that's ok, i don't need your help
[16:46] (SweetLeaf) I got sum fresh yellow tail here friend caught it yesterday
[16:46] (RangerDog) Long term, Sbrns, do you see Iraq becoming a US outpost? An ipso facto colony of the US?
[16:48] (RangerDog) This debate on Iraq in the Senate is fascinating.
[16:48] (SweetLeaf) that debate dont mean a thing
[16:48] (SweetLeaf) its a sham
[16:49] (RangerDog) Is that what Rush Limbaugh said?
[16:49] (SweetLeaf) i dont listen to rush
[16:49] (RangerDog) Where did you learn your opinion?
[16:49] (SweetLeaf) make another assumption
[16:49] (RangerDog) You had to have heard that somewhere.
[16:49] (RangerDog) And are repeating it here.
[16:50] (SweetLeaf) all you have to do is listen to Harry Reid
[16:50] (CometBaby) RangerDog. c'mon. Stick to the debate and stop dragging in the red herrings :)
[16:50] (RangerDog) Sweet, where did you learn your opinion?
[16:50] (SweetLeaf) by the way have you
[16:50] (RangerDog) Comet, I'm onto something interesting here.
[16:51] (SweetLeaf) I listen to Harry and his cronies and then rational people loyal consertives
[16:51] (RangerDog) I'm basing my opinion on what I am seeing broadcast live on C-Span 2.
[16:51] (CometBaby) RangerDog Sweetleaf is in here every night. He has been in here every night for years. He is fully capable of forming his own opinions.
[16:51] (SweetLeaf) and come up with politics being played with a war most o them voted on
[16:51] (RangerDog) So, if someone is not watching and yet knows it is a sham, they must have learned that opinion somewhere else.
[16:51] (gopp) randym_ cspan
[16:51] (gopp) RangerDog cspan
[16:51] (SweetLeaf) ya watch cspan
[16:52] (SweetLeaf) see your gov in action
[16:52] (gopp) RangerDog you know people have opnions beside rush limbugh opnion
[16:52] (gopp) RangerDog consertive have many ideas
[16:52] (gopp) all thier own
[16:52] (RangerDog) I am watching C-Span 2, the debate, but Sweet said he wasn't watching because it was a sham.
[16:52] (SweetLeaf) I listen to dicks like you RD and form an opinion
[16:52] (gopp) RangerDog I would argue you sound like alfraken
[16:52] (gopp) RangerDog who cares what your watching
[16:52] (gopp) you sound like alfrakne
[16:53] (pntkl) blame it on the drive-by media
[16:53] (pntkl) rofl
[16:53] (SweetLeaf) it is a sham what does it do?????
[16:53] (pntkl) or imus
[16:53] (SweetLeaf) what will it acomplish
[16:53] (SweetLeaf) not a damn thing
[16:53] (RangerDog) Well, look at it from my angle. If you told me, Hey, there is a great debate in the House on drug legalization, and my immediate response was "I'm not watching because that debate is a sham" I would have had to have gained that opinion somewhere else.
[16:53] (gopp) no thier a liberal media
[16:53] (gopp) bias
[16:54] (RktScntst) RangerDog: I doubt it is a "debate".
[16:54] (SweetLeaf) all you dimocraps can think of is getting elected not what is good for the country you me me me me party
[16:54] (RangerDog) Well, Rkt, you know. What passes for debate in this day and age.
[16:54] (pntkl) i have one
[16:54] (pntkl) are people worthy of God?
[16:54] (pntkl) :P
[16:55] (SweetLeaf) fucking idiots
[16:55] (RangerDog) And if you asked me, RangerDog, where did you get that opinion about the drug debate being a sham?, I'd answer you, Oh, I heard it on the morning talk show, and I agreed. But I got only avoidance when I asked.
[16:55] (RktScntst) pntkl: is God worthy of me?
[16:56] (pntkl) that isn't an answer
[16:56] (RangerDog) I'm not a Democrat. I'm an independent. And between the Repubs and the Dems, I've voted for a lot more Republicans.
[16:56] (RktScntst) RangerDog: i have not heard it on any talk show.. that it is probably a sham, and they're not actually listening to each other.
[16:56] (pntkl) God can have many meanings
[16:56] (RktScntst) pntkl: I am his creation, if i am not worthy, then its his own damn fault.
[16:57] (WyldOcsar) alot of the important work of congress is in committees, in the hallway and on luxury yachts talking with lobbyists. cspan has to many quorum calls for my liking.
[16:57] (pntkl) are people worthy of Enlightenment?
[16:57] (pntkl) are people worthy of their own Utopian Ideals
[16:58] (RangerDog) People, I shed tears over the fact that so many Americans are not forming their own opinions. They are repeating someone else's opinion and thinking it is their own.
[16:58] (pntkl) the argument over people is an individual and group argument
[16:58] (RangerDog) "luxury yachts talking with lobbyists" -- sad, but true
[17:00] (RktScntst) btw: did Pelosi accomplish all the goals she said she would in the first 100 hours yet?
[17:01] (hans--) Yah, and did it under the limit she set.
[17:01] (pntkl) pelosi just looks scary
[17:01] (RangerDog) Yeah, Rkt. In fewer than 100 hours.
[17:01] (TheTailor) Pelosi didn't do anything did she?
[17:01] (RktScntst) heh. actually, she hasn't accomplished any of them.
[17:01] (RktScntst) we're not out of iraq
[17:01] (RktScntst) they havn't stopped all earmarks, just changed the semantics
[17:01] (RangerDog) Rkt, Pelosi is only responsible for the House.
[17:02] (RangerDog) And the House did them all. In fewer than 100 hours.
[17:02] (RktScntst) RangerDog: true, but she didn't get a house bill to pull out troops out passed
[17:02] (RangerDog) I don't think that was one of them.
[17:02] (RktScntst) actually, it was the #1
[17:02] (RangerDog) Show me a link.
[17:02] (RktScntst) but I can not think of a single thing she got done, even limited to just the house.
[17:02] (pntkl) and a shamefully retarded idea, at that
[17:02] (hans--) passed the resolution to fully implement the recommendations of the 9/11 commission.
[17:02] (RangerDog) Rkt, she did them all.
[17:02] (RktScntst) lol.. "the resolution"
[17:02] (hans--) increased the min wage.
[17:02] (RangerDog) I don't know what you are talking about.
[17:03] (RangerDog) Yeah, the minimum wage actually made it all the way through.
[17:03] (SweetLeaf) dont forget the pork
[17:03] (hans--) lowered college loan interest rates
[17:03] (RktScntst) not within 100 hours, or just over 4 days
[17:03] (TheTailor) She didn't do any of it in the first 100 hours and never went to a 5 day work week.
[17:03] (hans--) rolled back subsidies for oil companies after their record profits.
[17:03] (RktScntst) in fact, they only met ~25 hours total in the first full week.
[17:03] (RktScntst) nope, that didn't happen either
[17:03] (RangerDog) Rkt, I don't understand your objection. Pelosi and the House accomplished every single one of the First 100 Hour goals.
[17:04] (pntkl) hahah
[17:04] (hans--) required medicare to leverage purchase drugs to make them less expensive for those enrolled.
[17:04] (RangerDog) It's a matter of fact. Of public record.
[17:04] (pntkl) i could see this repeating until someone looks it up
[17:04] (RktScntst) then you'll have no problem pulling up the date of passage in house.
[17:04] (RangerDog) You might as well say, Dungy didn't not accomplish his goal of winning the Super Bowl. Such a claim is clearly nonsense.
[17:04] (RktScntst) pntkl: yep.. which if they DID, they'll see, they're wrong ;-)
[17:04] (bun-bun) lup: but research isn't as fun
[17:04] (RktScntst) As we posted a running tab here on #politics, and it ran out
[17:04] (RangerDog) There is no reason to research.
[17:05] (RktScntst) and the score was zero at 40 hours.
[17:05] (pntkl) hahaha
[17:05] (RangerDog) Just as I know the Colts won the Super Bowl, I know Pelosi and the House met their goals.
[17:05] (bun-bun) yeah wouldn't actually want to find out about it or anything.. better to make positive assertations that are not backed by the facts
[17:05] (pntkl) that doesn't make any sense
[17:05] (pntkl) RangerDog
[17:06] (panini) RangerDog, nope, she accomplished NONE of it
[17:06] (RangerDog) Haha, I may be getting old, but my memory is not so bad that I can't remember last January. ;)
[17:06] (RktScntst) i remember shocked to learn that Pelosi's first 40 hours wasn't well, really hours.
[17:06] (RktScntst) must be that fuzzy math
[17:06] (pntkl) you listen to a propaganda machine that warps your perception
[17:06] (bun-bun) Well you may want to re-examine that diagnosis
[17:06] (pntkl) otherwise, you would be looking it up
[17:06] * bun-bun off to clear email
[17:06] (RktScntst) pntkl: he knows the truth, hence, why he isn't posting it :-)
[17:06] * RktScntst subscribes bun-bun to more junk email
[17:07] (pntkl) the propaganda machine is that of which the truth is left to those that care ... and the rest, well they're right because they don't care
[17:07] (RangerDog) I can go fetch a link and show it, but why don't we skip that step, and you guys make whatever "cute" point you are bursting at the seams to make. (And have probably alrealy made fifty times in this very channel...)
[17:07] (panini) he is warped by the propaganda machine, but he's also *part* of the propaganda machine
[17:07] (pntkl) yes
[17:07] (RktScntst) RangerDog: you can? i doubt you can.
[17:08] (RktScntst) Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) "stated that her goal is to undo everything that has been accomplished by a Republican Congress in the first 100 hours of Democratic rule" if Democrats take control of the U.S. House of Representatives.
[17:08] (pntkl) RangerDog: the point is that you haven't stated proof for your argument
[17:09] (pntkl) nancy pelosi just looks scary
[17:09] (RktScntst) I *LOVED* how they simply redefined earmarks and pork.. so it doesn't "count" if the committee chair adds it.
[17:09] (RangerDog) I haven't "stated proof" that the Colts won the Super Bowl either. But they did. And we all know that. Do you have a "cute" point to make about why the Colts didn't win the Super Bowl, too?
[17:09] (TheTailor) Democratic *rule* huh
[17:09] (TheTailor) haha
[17:09] * RktScntst notices that RangerDog seems to only like to play in the football kiddie pool ;-)
[17:09] (pntkl) i'm saying who cares about the super bowl
[17:10] (pntkl) we're talking about numbers
[17:10] (pntkl) in a completely different game
[17:10] (panini) who's talking about the fucking super bowl??
[17:10] (panini) what a stupid tactic
[17:10] (TheTailor) Yeah but it makes 'em look stupid, so we like it
[17:10] (panini) you're totally wrong about your main point, so you talk about the super bowl instead??
[17:11] (TheTailor) Pity liberals can't see their illogic makes them look like assholes, heh.
[17:11] (RangerDog) Oh, okay, guys. We all live in a Twilight Zone universe, and Pelosi and the House didn't pass all the 100 hours initiatives. I forgot about that. Oh, you got me good there. Oh tee hee hee.
[17:12] (RktScntst) RangerDog yer the only one in the twilight zone
[17:12] (RktScntst) Here’s something you don’t see every day: a member of the mainstream media blaming high gas prices on somebody other than President Bush or Vice President Cheney.
[17:12] (RktScntst) Not only did Wednesday’s Washington Post deflect responsibility for the rise in prices paid at the pump away from the White House, much of the blame was actually shifted to – wait for it! – House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-California).
[17:14] (RktScntst) Ooops.. democrats not turning over copies of the representatives earmark reqeustion to CNN.
[17:14] (RangerDog) "By January 18, 2007, 87 business hours after the swearing-in, the House of Representatives had passed every one of the plan's measures in the form that they had been submitted to Congress."
[17:14] (e-Hernick) Democrat lies... while raising gas prices...
[17:14] (RktScntst) business hours? lol
[17:15] (panini) pelosi's MAIN job was to implement cut & run from iraq. that's WHY dems were elected. so far she's failed to implement cut & run
[17:15] (e-Hernick) Pelosi never had the power to cut and run
[17:15] (e-Hernick) and she never will
[17:15] (RktScntst) DREW GRIFFIN: ...Last week Speaker Nancy Pelosi hailed a new open earmark process saying finally the American people will know where their money is going, and then she said this.
[17:15] (RktScntst) REP. NANCY PELOSI, (D) HOUSE SPEAKER: If I just might direct the record to another place, why don't we just leave this room today forgetting the word earmark? This is legislatively directed spending as opposed to executive spending.
[17:15] (RktScntst) GRIFFIN: And Ms. Pelosi, for the record, a member of your staff told us you would not reveal your "legislatively directed spending requests."
[17:15] (RktScntst) NOt even CNN is buying it :-)
[17:15] (RangerDog) Oh, your "cute point" was that the hours should have been accruing while people slept? Why didn't you just state that outright?
[17:15] (panini) lol
[17:15] (panini) that's hilarious
[17:16] (RktScntst) AHAHHAHA.. he quotes wikipedia
[17:16] (RangerDog) Not Wiki.
[17:16] (panini) when even CNN is skeptical, you know there's something seriously wrong :)
[17:16] (RktScntst) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100-Hour_Plan
[17:16] (RktScntst) second paragraph you ignorant ape
[17:16] (RangerDog) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/19/AR2007011900175.html
[17:16] (panini) no wikipedia... he read "wackipedia"
[17:16] (hans--) http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20070119-0106-congress-100hours.html it's everywhere.
[17:17] (panini) +s
[17:17] (RangerDog) This channel was so interesting last night, but tonight, well, the standards are not so high...
[17:17] (RktScntst) strange, not a single factual citation of the bills passed.
[17:17] (RktScntst) RangerDog: fluff piece, no facts. typical.
[17:17] (panini) that's typical
[17:18] (RktScntst) no analysis of what she claimed she would do, and what was passed.
[17:18] (SweetLeaf) seeing some real reporting
[17:18] (RangerDog) Rkt, I don't know if you live in America or not, so I will say this in case you don't. In the US, bills need three approvals before they become law. Pelosi is responsible for the House of Representatives. She has not say over the Senate or President.
[17:19] (td) Did anyone read this new article http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/07/fbi-iraqis-bein.html
[17:19] (RktScntst) RangerDog: So she made promises she knew she could not fullfill. typical.
[17:19] (RangerDog) Rkt, were you in a coma last January?
[17:19] (panini) RangerDog, backpedaling now?
[17:19] (td) Iraqis and Other "middle easterners" are being smuggled across the Mexican border
[17:19] (L0c0) td: they were just talking about that on the local news
[17:19] (bizinichi) haha michael moore "I'm about to become your worst nightmare"
[17:19] (Aufklaren) td smuggles Thai ladyboys across the Mexican border to fill his own private harem.
[17:20] (td) I think its pretty shocking
[17:20] (L0c0) Chaparral is just north of here
[17:20] (td) these guys could be terrorists
[17:20] (RktScntst) Something interesting is happening between the new and old media: the more Democrats move to the left to please liberal bloggers, the more mainstream press members express disdain.
[17:20] (RktScntst) On Wednesday, following in the footsteps of the Washington Post’s David Broder and Time’s Joe Klein, and just days before Democrat strategist Bob Beckel, NBC’s Tim Russert jumped on the “Netroots Are A Danger to Democrats” bandwagon.
[17:20] (td) or they could just be people escaping the hellhole that is Iraq
[17:20] (L0c0) td: that's one helluva boatride to escape what some claim is a situation getting better
[17:20] (Jakyl) td: since we have no real control over the border there is no way e are likely to know.
[17:21] (td) well the FBI is on it
[17:21] (td) thank god
[17:21] (RktScntst) RangerDog: what they actually did is.. push thru old bills that well, did not do what Pelosi promises to do. She also lied about the 100 hours, she also knowingly lied when she made promises that it wasn't soely up to her.
[17:21] (td) This should create a louder call to lock down the border
[17:21] (RktScntst) now myself, I was dismayed how she kicked poor Murtha to the curb, and totally abandoned the mandate she was given: pull US troops out of harmsway in Iraq.. right THEN AND THERE.
[17:21] (L0c0) td: they're just here to work! you are racist toward middle eastern people! they just want to contribute to our economy!
[17:21] (L0c0) hehe
[17:21] (panini) hehe
[17:22] (td) well they could be hardworkers
[17:22] (L0c0) td: that's just pathetic...ring was in operation for a year+
[17:22] (Jakyl) I am disgusted by Pelosi'
[17:22] (panini) hard working terrorists
[17:22] (RktScntst) L0c0: hey now, there are plenty of Kwik-e-mart's to go around.
[17:22] (L0c0) pretty scary man
[17:22] (panini) just trying to make ends meet for their families
[17:22] (Jakyl) I am disgusted by Pelosi's desire to make alcee hastings head of the house intelligence committee
[17:22] (td) doing jobs americans dont want to do
[17:22] (td) like terrorism?
[17:22] (L0c0) The FBI report, issued last week, says the smuggling organization "used to smuggle Mexicans, but decided to smuggle Iraqi or other Middle Eastern individuals because it was more lucrative." Each individual would be charged a fee of $20,000 to $25,000, according to the report.
[17:22] (Jakyl) I am further angered that the bastard is even on the committee at all
[17:22] (RangerDog) Rkt, if you want to argue Pelosi did not push through viable bills, why didn't you do that from the start?
[17:22] (L0c0) dude... $20,000 to $25,000????
[17:22] (Aufklaren) Jakyl: Never heard of the bloke. What's wrong with him?
[17:23] (panini) Jakyl, that was what she meant by "ending the culture of corruption"
[17:23] (L0c0) Td: somehow i wouldn't imagine that a refugee would have that kind of money
[17:23] (L0c0) td; but a well funded terrorist might
[17:23] (td) I dont know that an Iraqi would have 20-25K
[17:23] (RangerDog) You took up all the time I have tonight playing some kind of game which I don't understand.
[17:23] (td) yeah
[17:23] (td) Bin Laden could be bankrolling their smuggling
[17:23] (Aufklaren) Plenty of ex-Baathists would have 20-25K.
[17:23] (td) or someone else
[17:23] (panini) Aufklaren, one of the most corrupt judges in history
[17:23] (L0c0) td: couple this w/ the new intelligence estimate saying that terrorists trained in iraq are likely to fan out?
[17:23] (Jakyl) Aufklaren: he was a federal judge that was impeached and removed from his position on the bench for criminal corruption.
[17:24] (panini) democrats were enamored of his corruption, and immediately elected him to congress :)
[17:24] (Jakyl) Aufklaren: one who pelosi voted to have impeached and removed
[17:24] (Aufklaren) Sounds like a spiffing guy. Just the man you want to lead an intelligence committee.
[17:24] (RktScntst) RangerDog: she did not accomplish what she said she would accomplish :-)
[17:24] (Aufklaren) Sounds perfectly trustworthy to me.
[17:24] (hans--) Actually she did Rkt.
[17:24] (Aufklaren) What's an impeachment and a criminal corruption trial between friends, eh?
[17:24] (td) L0c0: well we dont know but these Iraqis that have been smuggled into the U.S. across the Mexican border could be Al Queda terrorists.. trained in Iraqi training camps
[17:24] (hans--) You're in the twilight zone (as usual).
[17:24] (RktScntst) hans--: nope. she may have promised unattainable things, but she did none the less.
[17:24] (td) and now they could be in the U.S. waiting for the signal to strike
[17:24] (RangerDog) I think when pro-Republicans forces makes claims like "Pelosi didn't pass her '100 hours' bills, it further marginalizes them in the eyes of normal Americans.
[17:24] (Jakyl) Aufklaren: he avoided a criminal conviction because his co-conspirator refused to testify against him.
[17:24] (RktScntst) hans--: she also redefined what 100 hours are anyways.
[17:25] (RktScntst) *shrug*
[17:25] (hans--) Sue her :D
[17:25] (Jakyl) Aufklaren: oh, and the co-conspirator was granted a full pardon by bill clonton at the end of his presidency
[17:25] (RktScntst) she didn't do what I voted her for.. to pull out troops out of harms way.
[17:25] (RktScntst) which is why I fully support Cindy SHeehan holding her accountable.
[17:25] (RangerDog) If you have a beef with Pelosi -- and there are plenty of reasons for that -- discuss it. Don't lie about things that everyone knows are false.
[17:25] (hans--) You don't live in SF, you couldn't vote for her.
[17:25] (Aufklaren) Jakyl: If he was a judge, what qualifications does he have to lead an intelligence committee?
[17:25] (panini) me too
[17:25] (RktScntst) I hope she runs and kicks Pelosi's in her @unt.
[17:25] (L0c0) td: just goes to show that our gov't doesn't truely give a shit about the saftey of americans
[17:25] (Jakyl) Aufklaren: oh, and also, he is now hillary's co-campaign coordinator
[17:25] (panini) i support cindy sheehan taking over pelosi's job
[17:26] (L0c0) if they did, the borders would be way more secure than they are now...
[17:26] (RktScntst) As at least Cindy would _TRY_ to bring our boys home.
[17:26] (td) L0c0: i dont know if I would go that far, I dont know that Bush could actually secure the border if he wanted to
[17:26] (Aufklaren) How big is the Mexico border?
[17:26] (Jakyl) Aufklaren: noe thaty I am aware of. But because he avoided conviction he ran for congress in florida and was elected. He's also part of the Congressional Black Caucus.
[17:26] (Aufklaren) Thousand miles? two?
[17:26] (L0c0) td: maybe they want a few terrorists here to "help" prove support their rallying cry of fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here
[17:26] (hans--) Speaking of promises, where's that Al Queda guy, that Bush has had 7 years to nab.
[17:26] (panini) 1500 miles
[17:26] (hans--) hmm?
[17:26] (hans--) :D
[17:27] (Aufklaren) How do you secure a 1500 mile border?
[17:27] (panini) with a 1500 mile fence. Duh.
[17:27] (Aufklaren) The costs of building an effective fence would be astronomical.
[17:27] (L0c0) hans--: enjoying himself in Pakistan
[17:27] (panini) nope
[17:27] (Aufklaren) Any estimates?
[17:27] (td) although I am pretty sure that the resources dumped into Iraq could probably have secured the mexican border
[17:27] (panini) it's well within feasibility
[17:27] (RktScntst) hans--: the stability of mussarif is more important than OBL currently. sad, but I happen to agree with it.
[17:27] (Aufklaren) Has anyone done a serious cost estimate?
[17:27] (L0c0) Hans---: the US had a shot to capture al-Zawahri earlier this year and passed b/c they didn't want to upset Musharriff
[17:27] (panini) and anyway the fence is FAR cheaper than the cost of supporting illegals
[17:28] (Jakyl) yeah. that is what we should have done. left a murderous dictator in place and built a fence.
[17:28] (panini) so it's a net savings
[17:28] (Aufklaren) Including guards, maintenance, and the fact the fence has to be serious enough to withstand determined illegal entrance without the need for constant repair?
[17:28] (RktScntst) CNN: GRIFFIN: And Ms. Pelosi, for the record, a member of your staff told us you would not reveal your "legislatively directed spending requests."
[17:28] (panini) Aufklaren, see weneedafence.com
[17:28] (hans--) Typical flip flopping Republicans...point fingers at Clinton for missed chances at Bin Laden, and yet somehow Bush is let off the hook. Go fig.
[17:28] (td) well theres no serious estimates.. just profiteers that want millions per foot
[17:28] (Aufklaren) panini: I'd rather look at an estimate not by a lobby group from either side.
[17:28] (Aufklaren) panini: I mean, from an independent inquiry or something.
[17:29] (RangerDog) Are you talking about Osama bin Forgotten?
[17:29] (panini) nobody wants to do an inquiry
[17:29] (Aufklaren) panini: I don't see how it'll be feasible. I mean, how do you actually check 1500 miles of fence for breaks?
[17:29] (RktScntst) hans-- the difference is, Clinton had no valid reason to weigh the merits of not obtaining him.
[17:29] (panini) Aufklaren, see weneedafence.com
[17:29] (Aufklaren) panini: When was the last inquiry into border defence?
[17:29] (panini) that will answer all your questions
[17:29] (Aufklaren) panini: Did it recommend a fence?
[17:29] (td) Why didnt clinton put up a fence
[17:29] (Aufklaren) Like I said, I'd rather not use lobby groups.
[17:29] (td) that dirty bastard
[17:29] (RangerDog) I don't think a fence fixes anything.
[17:29] (panini) Aufklaren, there are no independent inquiries
[17:30] (Aufklaren) panini: None?
[17:30] (panini) of course not
[17:30] (Aufklaren) Well, that seems a bit stupid. Surely that should be the first step?
[17:30] (Aufklaren) A serious bipartisan, professional inquiry into border security and ways to increase it.
[17:30] (Aufklaren) Not even bipartisan - non-partisan.
[17:30] (panini) only those with an interest in it would bother to do an inquiry
[17:30] (Aufklaren) Apolitical professionals.
[17:30] (RangerDog) I was driving down the road today and saw two Mexicans working in a yard. I could guess with probably 95% accuracy that they were both illegals. Any cop would do the same. But no one will bother them.
[17:30] (Jakyl) td: I dont' think Clinton saw a need for one. and truthfully few people did.
[17:30] (L0c0) illegals from iraq being smuggled into the US
[17:30] (L0c0) glad nobody cares
[17:31] (RangerDog) Reid asked the Sargeant At Arms to make the Senators come to the Senate!
[17:31] (RangerDog) So they are doing a roll call!
[17:31] (RangerDog) Holy cow!! Exciting!
[17:32] (rondd) Rhiannon O'Donnabhain is suing the IRS in a case advocates for the transgendered are hoping will force the tax agency to treat sex-change operations the same as appendectomies, heart bypasses and other deductible medical procedures. The case is set to go to trial July 24.
[17:32] (Aufklaren) O'Donnabhain?
[17:32] (Aufklaren) Seriously? That's her name?
[17:32] (Aufklaren) Did she make it up?
[17:32] (rondd) yeah
[17:32] (RangerDog) haha
[17:32] (rondd) http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289526,00.html
[17:32] (RktScntst) Aufklaren: why not, "Cathy" made up hers
[17:32] (Aufklaren) I'm British. I've met literally thousands of Irish people, and stayed in Ireland for months at a time. I've never seen a name remotely like it.
[17:33] (RktScntst) in any event, it doubt very seriously she is truely transgendered
[17:33] (Jakyl) that's great. they try to make some cosmedic surgery the same as a life-threatening surgery. How typical.
[17:33] (RktScntst) Jakyl: remember, its a RIGHT and should be paid for by taxpayers!
[17:33] (RangerDog) Jak, that's the scary part of national health insurance. special interest groups will decide what is covered.
[17:34] (Jakyl) RktScntst: yeah, one of those famous "rights"
[17:34] (RktScntst) in my opinion, the IRS should simply charge her with federal fraud to claim she had a sex change operation, when she had no such thing.
[17:34] (Aufklaren) Put it to the scientists. If "gender dislocation" is real, and not just a psychological disorder, of course it should be available through the health service. Of course, there is no scientific basis whatsoever for that claim.
[17:35] (WyldOcsar) the fall of the roman empire started the same way
[17:35] (Jakyl) gender dislocation. okay. now that has me laughing.
[17:35] (Aufklaren) Jakyl: I made it up, but it sounds like it could be real. ;)
[17:35] (panini) are we talking about trannies?
[17:35] (Aufklaren) Good, eh?
[17:35] (RangerDog) I fear national health care will cover such "necessary" things as sex changes and statin anti-cholesterol drugs.
[17:35] (Jakyl) Aufklaren: congrats. you made me laugh. it doesn't happen often
[17:35] (t|to) http://www.collegehumor.com/picture:1766977
[17:36] (Aufklaren) There are nearly 700,000 Google hits for "gender dislocation."
[17:36] (Aufklaren) It's true. Make up the most obscure political description you can think of, and you're guaranteed to find groups using it seriously.
[17:36] (Aufklaren) "Liberation Front for the Transgendered Strasserite Labour Party of Romania."
[17:36] (Aufklaren) I BET THERE IS ONE.
[17:36] (Jakyl) Aufklaren: never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups.
[17:37] (td) you can say that again
[17:37] (rondd) heh leave romania out of it !!
[17:37] (TWThomas) TRANNIES are just caught in a crossfire of genetical fuck ups
[17:37] (Aufklaren) I like Romania. When I think of it, I think of small villages full of peasants overlooked by towering castles inhabited by vampires.
[17:38] (Aufklaren) I hate having my stereotypical preconceptions of foreign countries tainted by fact.
[17:38] (rondd) i will be there in two weeks
[17:38] (Aufklaren) I dimly remember the first time I watched a documentary on Germany and was surprised to find they didn't dress like Gunter out of the Simpsons and eat sausages all day.
[17:38] (rondd) for two weeks
[17:38] (WyldOcsar) gypsy fusion is hot right now.
[17:39] (rondd) Romanian traffic cops in the seaside town of Constanta were rather surprised to discover that the driver of a BMW they pulled for zigzagging across the road had no licence, no hands, no clothes, and was figuratively legless, evz.ro reports.
[17:39] (rondd) [11:16] (rondd) Aurel Olteanu, 23, tested positive for twice the drink-drive limit, and put his lack of clothes down to a trip to a local nudist beach, which he'd left in a bit of a hurry.
[17:39] (rondd) now there is some real romanian news !!!
[17:39] (beeper) figuratively?
[17:39] (TWThomas) President George W. Bush will be the victor against that Senator Harry Reid
[17:40] (Jakyl) what do you call a quadroplegic swimming? Bob.
[17:40] (Patr) Are they going to have a duel?
[17:41] (Aufklaren) I reckon I could take GWB in a fist fight.
[17:41] (td) yeah but then rove would have you killed
[17:41] (Aufklaren) He looks like a bit of a brawler, but I have better reach.
[17:42] (Jakyl) you have to get past the secret service. and they are tough.
[17:42] (RangerDog) Bush looks like a bawler, I think you meant.
[17:42] (Aufklaren) Boo, RangerDog.
[17:42] (Aufklaren) Not funny.
[17:42] (Aufklaren) Boo.
[17:42] (Jakyl) mornin' Eeyore
[17:42] (Aufklaren) Entertain me, peon.
[17:42] (RangerDog) "Daddeeeeeeee, Aufklaren hit me!!!"
[17:42] (Eeyore) hey Jakyl how are ya?
[17:42] (Aufklaren) Okay, that's better.
[17:42] (Jakyl) tired but well, and yourelf?
[17:42] * Aufklaren steals Eeyore's tail and pins it to his forehead.
[17:42] (CometBaby) hmm
[17:42] (Eeyore) Im reading smething Rightoooo really needs to read.
[17:42] (Jakyl) mornin' CometBaby
[17:42] (TheTailor) Yeah hmm
[17:43] (td) Eeyore: did you see the story on drudge about Iraqis being smuggled over the Mexican border?
[17:43] (Eeyore) Londonistan deals well with that whole stupid idea of extra national legality
[17:43] (rondd) Well, when you're down on your luck,
[17:43] (rondd) and you ain't got a buck,
[17:43] (rondd) in London you're a goner.
[17:43] (Eeyore) td No. what story is that and since when did Iraq and Mexico share a border?
[17:43] (CometBaby) sorry jak .. had to fix that .. boot couldn't get in
[17:43] (rondd) Even London Bridge has fallen down,
[17:43] (rondd) and moved to Arizona,
[17:43] (rondd) now I know why.
[17:43] (td) since they have air travel
[17:43] (CometBaby) morning jak :)
[17:43] (CometBaby) lol
[17:43] (CometBaby) there you go :)
[17:44] (Bootleggr) hey I'm alive
[17:44] (RangerDog) Jerry Jeff!
[17:44] (Aufklaren) rondd: They bought London Bridge thinking it was Tower Bridge (the famous one).
[17:44] (RangerDog) Or Ray Wylie Hubbard.
[17:44] (Aufklaren) rondd: Silly people.
[17:44] (rondd) And I'll substantiate the rumor that the English sense of humor
[17:44] (rondd) is drier than than the Texas sand.
[17:44] (Eeyore) ok td and which way are they being smuggled? in or out of Mexico?
[17:44] (RangerDog) You can put up your dukes, or you can bet your boots, that I'll be leaving just as fast as I can.
[17:44] (rondd) Good song aufk
[17:44] (rondd) london home sick blues
[17:44] (rondd) by jerry jeff walker
[17:45] (Aufklaren) London Bridge is falling down, falling down, falling down... London Bridge is falling down, my fair lady!
[17:45] (RangerDog) Made famous by Jerry Jeff Walker. Ray Wylie Hubbard wrote it. (Or maybe Gary P. Nunn)
[17:45] (Aufklaren) RangerDawg: It was L. Ron Hubbard, silly!
[17:45] (RangerDog) heh, perhaps.
[17:45] (Jakyl) rondd is singing country and Aufklaren is quoting nursery ryhmes.
[17:46] (Jakyl) Only in #politics
[17:46] (rondd) heh my song is much better
[17:46] (rondd) you can drink beer to my song
[17:46] (Aufklaren) I'm drinking a lovely Chenin Blanc from South Africa.
[17:46] (Aufklaren) Will that do?
[17:46] (rondd) nooo
[17:46] (rondd) its not beer
[17:46] (Aufklaren) can't drink beer.
[17:46] (Eeyore) I could use another beer.
[17:46] (Aufklaren) On a diet.
[17:46] (Aufklaren) I was building a fair gut.
[17:46] (Aufklaren) Nearly done getting rid of it now, so I can get back to beer soon.
[17:46] (Jakyl) no diet is worth giving up beer
[17:47] (RangerDog) Drink Falstaff or Pearl or Pabst with Jerry Jeff.
[17:47] (Eeyore) brb
[17:47] (rondd) heres a verse for you aufk....
[17:47] (Aufklaren) Why does alcohol have to have calories in it? It sucks.
[17:47] (rondd) Well, I decided that I'd get my cowboy hat
[17:47] (rondd) and go down to Marble Arch Station.
[17:47] (rondd) 'Cause when a Texan fancies, he'll take his chances.
[17:47] (rondd) Chances will be taken, that's for sure.
[17:47] (rondd) And them Limey eyes, they were eyein' the prize
[17:47] (rondd) that some people call manly footwear.
[17:48] (Aufklaren) A rhyme about a Texan at Marble Arch?
[17:48] (rondd) naw its a CW song
[17:48] (rondd) from the 70's
[17:48] (Eeyore) Aufklaren read Dr. Atkins book. The problem isnt the calories its the residual sugars in beer and wine. drink Vodka or rum etc. and your fine
[17:48] (Aufklaren) It doesn't appear to rhyme to me.
[17:48] (Eeyore) depending what you mix it with
[17:48] (rondd) most CW songs do
[17:49] (Msieur_Ji) hi all
[17:49] (Aufklaren) Eeyore: That would mean switching from a low-calorie diet to a low-carb diet.
[17:49] (TheTailor) Welcome back Msieur_Ji
[17:49] (Eeyore) Aufklaren yes. it would.
[17:49] (Aufklaren) Eeyore: the two are completely separate. I'd probably put weight on in the transition.
[17:49] (Jakyl) drink bourbon, dam u.
[17:49] (Aufklaren) TheTailor: At the moment I'm on a low-calorie, reasonably high-carb diet.
[17:49] (Msieur_Ji) why are you spammed by .on.nimp.
[17:49] (Aufklaren) ...
[17:49] (Msieur_Ji) ??
[17:49] (Aufklaren) No idea why I addressed that to TheTailor.
[17:49] (Aufklaren) I guess I'm secretly in love with him.
[17:49] (Jakyl) Msieur_Ji: it's a right of passage.
[17:50] (Aufklaren) Eeyore: Anyway, the low-calorie diet is working. Nearly at where I want to be. My six pack is even returning. I just need to limit my drinking to dry white wines (relatively low in calories).
[17:50] (TheTailor) Keep your hands to yourself
[17:50] (TheTailor) Aufklaren, and throw some poly and mono unsaturated fat in that diet
[17:50] (Eeyore) Aufklaren see thats where you went wrong. I can get a six pack just by dialing Rapid Booze and I can have it in 30 minutes.
[17:51] (rondd) http://play.rhapsody.com/jerryjeffwalker/vivaterlingua/londonhomesickblues (---- Aufk you can here the song here
[17:51] (Aufklaren) I wish I could drink beer again. Wine is alright, but there's nothing like a good can of Stella Artois. ;)
[17:51] (Eeyore) Stella is one fine beer. Im rather fond of it myself.
[17:51] (Eeyore) The belgians do 3 things very well and beer is one of them
[17:51] (Jakyl) i don't take beer recomendations from people who drink warm beer.
[17:51] (Aufklaren) Yep. Does the job well too. 5.2%
[17:52] (Aufklaren) Jakyl: Bah. Britons don't drink warm beer. They drink real beer, as opposed to the ditch water Coors and Budweiser that pass for beer in the states. ;)
[17:52] (Eeyore) Im off soon actually back to the local for a stella once it quiets down a bit there
[17:52] (Aufklaren) I love Stella. Best lager going.
[17:52] (rondd) I drink tecate
[17:52] (rondd) mexican beer
[17:52] (Jakyl) Aufklaren: see, you confirmed my opinion.
[17:53] (Eeyore) rondd Question: would you drink Mexican water?
[17:53] (rondd) Nope
[17:53] (Eeyore) then why the fuck would you drink thier beer?
[17:53] (rondd) mexican beer is alight though
[17:53] (rondd) allright
[17:53] (Eeyore) yes it is
[17:53] (Eeyore) Im just kidding
[17:53] (rondd) :)
[17:53] (Eeyore) I like dos equis etc
[17:54] (Aufklaren) There's a Spanish beer we get over here, whose name escapes me...
[17:54] (Eeyore) Corona etc
[17:54] (Aufklaren) San or Sol or something.
[17:54] (Aufklaren) Gah, what is it...
[17:54] (Eeyore) thats Mexican as well
[17:54] (Eeyore) Sol
[17:54] (Jakyl) mexicans invented tequila. for this reason i can never trust their alcohol beverages.
[17:54] (Eeyore) Spain has beers as well Im sure
[17:54] (Aufklaren) Nah, it's San or Sol something.
[17:54] (rondd) sol is mexican
[17:54] (rondd) well it is here anyway
[17:55] (Aufklaren) Nah, I meant it started with San or Sol. It's like San (blah)
[17:55] (Aufklaren) GOT IT.
[17:55] (Aufklaren) San Miguel.
[17:55] (Aufklaren) That's it.
[17:55] (Aufklaren) We get San Miguel over here.
[17:55] (Aufklaren) That's alright.
[17:56] (Eeyore) Mahou beer - Spain
[17:56] (Eeyore) ?
[17:56] (Jakyl) saint michael, the beer. heh heh heh
[17:56] (rondd) http://www.femsa.com/en/assets/003/16430.jpg (--- Sol beer
[17:56] (Aufklaren) Eeyore: Think so.
[17:56] (Eeyore) SPain makes my fave wines actually. I love a good Rioja and they are pretty much all good
[17:56] (Aufklaren) http://www.lomography.com/sanmiguel/img/welcome.jpg
[17:57] (rondd) sol is sun in espanol if I remember right
[17:57] (Aufklaren) That's the stuff I was talking about.
[17:57] (Aufklaren) Spanish wine is alright.
[17:57] (Aufklaren) The French is being vastly outstripped by the Californian and Australian.
[17:57] (Jakyl) i think it is sun in latin
[17:57] (Aufklaren) Best wine I ever had was a Californian Pinot Noir.
[17:57] (Eeyore) so I applied for a wierd Canadian forces job today.
[17:57] (Eeyore) French wines are over rated/
[17:57] (Eeyore) Spain is excellent as is Argentina and Chile
[17:58] (rondd) you mean even in europe that is the case aufklaren ?
[17:58] (Aufklaren) The French place too much evidence on appelation, rather than production.
[17:58] (Jakyl) oregon has a world class pinot noir now. Or so I hear. I don't drink dry wines.
[17:58] (Eeyore) the main thing is, German wine sucks
[17:58] (Aufklaren) rondd: Yep. European wines are still slightly more popular, but the American, Australian and South African wines are starting to go past them.
[17:58] (rondd) interesting
[17:58] (Eeyore) Oz mostly prodice Shiraz isnt it?
[17:58] (Aufklaren) In fact, I think I remember reading that in 2005-present, European wines fell behind their American, Australian and South African counterparts.
[17:59] (Aufklaren) Californian wine in particular is teriffic.
[17:59] (Aufklaren) Eeyore: Shiraz and Chardonnay.
[17:59] (Eeyore) right
[17:59] (Jakyl) Eeyore: don't be dissing rieslings
[17:59] (Aufklaren) My favourite wine is Californian Pinot Noir, by a longshot. It's absolutely teriffic.
[17:59] (rondd) we drink mainly cabornets in this house
[17:59] (rondd) hardly anything else
[17:59] (Eeyore) Jakyl Im sorry but to me, as a rule, white wine is not wine so much as spoiled grape juice.
[18:00] * Jakyl forces Aufklaren to drink australian ice wine
[18:00] (Aufklaren) Hehe, fair comment.
[18:00] (Aufklaren) I'm drinking dry white at the moment for my diet, but reds are real wines. White wines are for beginners. ;)
[18:00] (Eeyore) Oz Ice wine? are you mad? Canada makes Ice wine
[18:00] (Jakyl) Eeyore: you probably drink scotch, too.
[18:00] (Eeyore) Jakyl very rarely.
[18:00] (Eeyore) I dont like it much
[18:00] (Jakyl) well, at least that is in yoru favor
[18:00] (Aufklaren) Australia has drive-through alcohol shops.
[18:01] (rondd) we have drive through beer stores
[18:01] (Aufklaren) I remember when I was growing up, we'd sometimes drive through and get riseling from a cask. ;)
[18:01] (Jakyl) Aufklaren: not all of them by intent
[18:01] (Eeyore) Aufklaren exactly. I have had the odd Gevurtstaminer that was good or blush but generally whites arent real wines at all
[18:01] (rondd) not other liquors though
[18:01] (Eeyore) I want a drive through booze andgun store
[18:01] (Harsen) So
[18:02] (Jakyl) i think they have them in texas
[18:02] (Harsen) Aufklaren was drunk the othernight, and he was photographed having sex with a cat in a London alleyway.
[18:02] (Harsen) Aufklaren, How do you respond to these incriminating photographs?
[18:02] (Aufklaren) Harsen asked me privately earlier if I knew any good bestiality sites. That's not my bag, but I thought I should share it.
[18:02] (Eeyore) http://www.james-cohen.com/gallery_access.php?eventname=Goofy%20stuff%20from%20tours scroll down to the store about 5 pics down
[18:02] (Aufklaren) Harsen: It was just a particularly small and hairy woman!
[18:02] (Harsen) Aufklaren, The correct answer would be "I did not have sexual relations with that feline"

Session Start: Tue Jul 17 18:04:58 2007
Session Ident: #politics
[18:04] * Now talking in #politics
[18:04] * Topic is 'North Korea Shuts down Nuclear Reactors. The Left re-spins it as typical.'
[18:04] * Set by freetrad3!free@wont.believ.eu on Mon Jul 16 15:16:31
[18:04] -moderatum- Greetings ^DannyAko, #politics is currently moderated. If you wait 30 seconds without changing your nickname you can take part in the discussion (mode +v).
[18:05] -moderatum- Welcome! NOTE: As of late some rascals have spammed this channel in an attempt to get us in trouble! Our apologies if you're here because of that -- #politics has nothing to do with it! Thank you for your understanding, and sorry again :-(
[18:05] (Eeyore) how did he get busted?
[18:05] (Eeyore) did she turn on him?
[18:05] (Aufklaren) Usual. Her parents found out, went to the police.
[18:05] (Eeyore) how old was she?
[18:06] (Aufklaren) I feel sorry for him, because she was at the age of consent, he was fairly young, and I know it wasn't abusive.
[18:06] (Aufklaren) 16.
[18:06] (Aufklaren) (British age of consent).
[18:06] (Eeyore) damn
[18:06] (Aufklaren) He was about 24, 25.
[18:06] (Eeyore) brb
[18:06] (Aufklaren) Bit of an age gap, but she was hardly an innocent taken advantage of.
[18:06] (Aufklaren) I'm fairly sure she wore the pants in that relationship.
[18:06] (Aufklaren) She's a lesbian nowadays.
[18:06] (Aufklaren) Funny how those things work out.
[18:06] (Harsen) Send her over
[18:06] (Jakyl) boffing ones students is bad form.
[18:07] (Aufklaren) Yeah, I can see why teachers shouldn't shag students. Good rules.
[18:07] (Aufklaren) But that's to protect the vulnerable.
[18:07] (Aufklaren) She was the predator in that particular relationship, though.
[18:07] (Jakyl) they usually are
[18:07] (Eeyore) Aufklaren Im not surprised by any of that
[18:07] (Aufklaren) He probably should have been sacked, but I feel bad for him because he ended up being tarred as a child molester.
[18:07] (Aufklaren) Really, nothing could be further from the truth.
[18:08] (Aufklaren) She was legal, she pursued him...
[18:08] (Aufklaren) Oh well.
[18:08] (Eeyore) I think in Canada age of concent is 14 unless its a teacher or person in authorirty then its 16
[18:08] (Aufklaren) Silly man, should have known those things come out in the end.
[18:09] (Patr) So, Eeyore a teacher could screw a 16 year old student?
[18:09] (Jakyl) men rarely make good decisions when thinking with the small head.
[18:09] (Eeyore) Patr yes
[18:10] (Eeyore) Jakyl if they did there would be no people on earth
[18:10] (Jakyl) Eeyore: now you know that isn't true.
[18:11] (Eeyore) Jakyl actually i was gonna type "and you know it!" at the end. it pretty much is true. if we where capable of always making really smart sexual choices who would ever have babies
[18:11] * Jakyl pokes bud` with a stick
[18:12] (Jakyl) Eeyore: that logic doesn't follow. it implies no one would fall in love.
[18:12] (Aufklaren) Eeyore: Exactly. I'm drawn like a magnet to complete and utter sluts and emotional trainwrecks. I have absolutely no idea why.
[18:13] (Eeyore) as it is, the birth control pill, whihc allows responsable people to have sexual freedom with no consequences (in a way) has pretty much desteroyed western civilisation
[18:13] (Aufklaren) When I imagine my ideal girl, she's chaste, honest and well-adjusted.
[18:13] (Jakyl) Aufklaren: like attracts like? ;)
[18:13] (Aufklaren) When it comes to reality, I like the skanks.
[18:13] (Aufklaren) Jakyl: Quite possibly. ;)
[18:13] (Eeyore) Aufklaren you and I have the exact same problem. and Jakyl when I fall in love is when I know Im about to make a REALLY horrible mistake for the reason Aufklaren stated
[18:13] (starly) Abusive domain or user
[18:13] * bud` grunts
[18:14] (Jakyl) Lord knows I was a male slut for most of my life.
[18:14] (Patr) I thought Aufklaren was gay.
[18:14] (Patr) Or is that just a running gag?
[18:14] (Aufklaren) Patr: Nah, you're thinking of your father.
[18:14] (Eeyore) The Peanut butter salt water taffy from the Golden Rod in York Beach maine may well be the most addictive substance I have ever tried
[18:14] (Jakyl) Eeyore: gotta work on that choice makin mechanism
[18:15] (Eeyore) Jakyl I did. I may have beaten my little problem. Now I dont date anyone. not sure which was better
[18:15] (Patr) I like toffee a little too much.
[18:15] (Eeyore) Jakyl I feel Aufklaren and I may have what I call, Pygmaion syndrome.
[18:16] (Eeyore) Patr I have 2 bags left in the freezer. Ic ant stop going down and getting them
[18:16] (Aufklaren) The worst kind of girl for me is a posh, rather stupid, slutty attention-seeker. I'm drawn to them intensely, but they're the worst possible sort.
[18:16] (WyldOcsar) camel non-filters were the most addictive thing I have ever used. I went through a year of hell giving them up.
[18:16] (Jakyl) Eeyore: you and henry higgens
[18:16] (Eeyore) Aufklaren for me its Borderline personality disorder chicks.
[18:17] (Eeyore) Jakyl yes I think all men have it though at one level. I think that play speaks to the nature of love as a whole in some ways. salvation of the self by rescue of another
[18:17] (Jakyl) I was just confusing sex with love.
[18:18] (Jakyl) took me a long time to get that sorted out.
[18:18] (Eeyore) WyldOcsar I had my last ciggarette a week ago today I believe it was. I understand.
[18:18] (Eeyore) Jakyl they are connected. intimacy connects them
[18:19] * Jakyl blows smoke from a good toasted cavendish in Eeyore's face.
[18:19] (Eeyore) hahahaha
[18:19] (Jakyl) Eeyore: whole different thing in my case.
[18:19] (Eeyore) once the desccision was truly made to quit, it wasnt that hard at all
[18:19] (Eeyore) Jakyl why so?
[18:19] (Jakyl) Eeyore: just stuff from my childhood.
[18:20] (Eeyore) Jakyl its the same for all of us. Imprints make our hoices for us
[18:20] (Eeyore) choices even
[18:21] (Jakyl) well, whatever the reasons. that was the result. took a long time to get under some semblance of control
[18:22] (Aufklaren) Jakyl: Think of it positively. Even if you were doing it for the wrong reasons, a lot of sex is a lot of sex. ;)
[18:23] (Jakyl) it was that. but even good sex gets boring over time.
[18:23] (Aufklaren) That's news to me.
[18:23] (Eeyore) and, as we get older, its good to have a nice library of spank fodder to draw on from our sexually active days
[18:23] (Eeyore) I envy the youth of today and their cam corders
[18:23] (Eeyore) we had to use our brains
[18:24] (Eeyore) maybe a fast sketch after she went home
[18:24] (Jakyl) Brazilian plane carrying 176 crashes into gas station -- that will teach them to raise prices.
[18:25] (Eeyore) ?! WHat? when?)
[18:25] (Jakyl) sec
[18:25] (Jakyl) http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070718/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/brazil_plane_crash
[18:26] (Eeyore) woh
[18:26] (Eeyore) thanks
[18:26] (Jakyl) yw
[18:27] (Eeyore) well bbl I need to get back to the pub for a stella. :*)
[18:30] (Jakyl) WASHINGTON - Elizabeth Edwards said Tuesday that her husband, Democrat John Edwards, would be a better advocate for women as president than his rival Hillary Rodham Clinton.
[18:31] (WyldOcsar) edwards has better hair than hillary
[18:31] (Jakyl) Larry Howard had better heair than hillary
[18:32] (WyldOcsar) thats very true
[18:32] (EDinATL) plane crash in brazil 176 dead
[18:32] (Jakyl) oops. Larry FIne. I get their names confused.
[18:32] (EDinATL) yeah
[18:32] (EDinATL) http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN1726359820070718?feedType=RSS&rpc=22&sp=true
[18:35] (Jakyl) WASHINGTON (Reuters) - With cots, pillows and pleas for change, the Democratic-led U.S. Senate began a rare around-the-clock session on Tuesday to push President George W. Bush and fellow Republicans to end the Iraq war.
[18:35] (Jakyl) statesmanship replaced with showmanship
[18:36] (Jakyl) typical.
[18:36] (Aufklaren) As far as I can tell, they're only confirming a few dead and a few more injured at the moment. But "unconfirmed reports" are saying the death toll could be much higher.
[18:37] (Jakyl) the trick to those reports are how many are they confirming alive.
[18:38] (Jakyl) brb
[18:38] (JanetB) hahahhahahaha, hahahhahah pleas for change hahhaha
[18:39] (JanetB) how many times did the dems filibuster in the last 12 years?
[18:40] (JanetB) personally if I was a senator, I would say.. ok love you bye bye... I am sleeping in my bed
[18:40] (Litium-) how many times did republicans cry a river about not having an up and down vote?
[18:40] (redfish) jakylman jakylman as mean as a jakyl man
[18:40] (JanetB) Litium-.. the point is, they get upset when it is done to them.. give me a break
[18:41] (JanetB) what is that saying, what is good for the goose :)
[18:42] (Litium-) JanetB: i am saying the republicans are being hypocrites. the democrats arent making a big stink about the tactic, as far as its legitemacy, they know it is.
[18:42] (Litium-) Republicans on the other hand decried the tactic when used against them but use it themselves when needed
[18:42] (astrodog) Who used what?
[18:42] (JanetB) no the dems are being hyprocites!, they didi it over and over and over, and why whine like a baby when the shoe is on the other foot, what we are supposed to BOW down to them now?
[18:43] (JanetB) to bad, you did you get it back
[18:43] (astrodog) Janet: Eh?
[18:44] (Viniceos) why isnt handball more popular?
[18:45] (Litium-) JanetB: remember when republicans would say "up and down vote" over and over? show me a democrat that is saying republicans have no right to fillibuster
[18:45] (JanetB) then dems voted for this war, they bought it like the reps did.. now they can finish it, instead of whinnig and crying, like little babies, which they have done for years and years now, and continue to do, they finish nothing, they have no standing, and no back back bone,.... if they do not want it done to them, they should not have done it one every single turn, and left our courts with out judges and many other areas of things unfinis
[18:46] (JanetB) want to chicken out of something THEY voted for too... and they are not getting there way, waa waaa waaaaa
[18:46] (Litium-) sounds like a limbaugh rant
[18:46] (astrodog) Janet: comma abuse is shameful.
[18:46] (Litium-) a bunch of barely connected thoughts containing little truth
[18:47] (smacksy) we need a fairness doctrine for this channel
[18:47] (JanetB) to bad.... they should not have voted for the war, if they did not want to finish it, but NO they vote for it, they fund it, they pass it... and then they cry about it...
[18:47] (JanetB) it is based in total fact
[18:47] (astrodog) Janet: You understand that people can change their minds, based on new evidence, right?
[18:47] (JanetB) reed is saying it right now and crying to the media about it
[18:48] (JanetB) astrodog.. to bad... if they broke it THEY STAY and fix it, you do not leave a country to be slaughtered cause you turned chicken
[18:48] (astrodog) Janet: You do whatever is in the best interests of the United States, imo.
[18:48] (Litium-) so american people dont want our troops there, iraqis dont want our troops there.....
[18:48] (JanetB) astrodog, and the best interest is to stay
[18:48] (Litium-) but democrats should?
[18:48] (astrodog) Janet: Perhaps.
[18:49] (JanetB) not let that country be turned into a terrorist strong hold
[18:49] (astrodog) Janet: That's really the point that needs to be debated.
[18:49] (Harsen) Do you know why Al-Qaeda is back at "pre-9/11 strength" ?
[18:49] (astrodog) Harsen: Steroids.
[18:49] (Harsen) Can anyone answer me this, I can tell you but its an exercise in logic.
[18:49] (Litium-) Harsen: bush is at the helm?
[18:49] (Harsen) Litium-, Thats retarded, so no.
[18:50] (Harsen) Al-Qaeda is back at "pre-9/11" strength because they've had safe haven in Pakistan near the Pakistani/Afghan border, where they can train, plan and build.
[18:50] (Litium-) Harsen: really? did someone not support/fund his anti terror tactics?
[18:50] (astrodog) Harsen: Frankly? American forgien policy has, in some respects, not been aggressive enough.
[18:50] (Harsen) If the U.S. leaves Iraq and it turns into chaos, civil war or a failed state, they have an even larger safe haven.
[18:50] (Viniceos) astrodog, you invade a country, turn it into the most chaotic place on earth, then leave.. and as long as you're doing what's best for the United States, that's somehow fair?
[18:50] (JanetB) well Harsen, I do not know that it is back to pre 9-11 , since we did not really know what it was at pre 9-11 and we have no clue today, since they do not take a roll call
[18:50] (WyldOcsar) musharriff is in trouble and america doesnt want to make things worse for him.
[18:50] (astrodog) Vini: Who said anything about fair?
[18:50] (RktScntst) Oh great, Lithium is back and off his medications?
[18:50] (Litium-) Harsen: why did bush let them have a safe haven in pakistna?
[18:51] (Harsen) You may believe that it was a tactical mistake to go into Iraq. Fine, thats a legitimate belief. However its obviously a much larger mistake to just leave.
[18:51] (astrodog) Vini: When it comes to forgien policy, its not supposed to be fair.
[18:51] (Viniceos) RktScntst, well if you're deliberatetly being unfair, doesnt that make you "evil"?
[18:51] (astrodog) Harsen: There are obviously points inbetween leaving immediately, and continued escalation.
[18:52] (astrodog) Vini: Not really.
[18:52] (Litium-) Harsen: we don't need the hundreds of thousands of troops patrolling the streets to fight al-quada in iraq. and no mainstream democrat is advocating pulling out anti terror troops
[18:52] (Viniceos) astrodog, isnt fairness the foundation of christianism?
[18:52] (Harsen) astrodog, I think its ridiculous not tog ive the surge and Petraeus' plan a chance to work.
[18:52] (astrodog) Vinic: No.... Jesus is the foundation of Christianity... or perhaps Paul.
[18:52] (astrodog) Vinic: Besides, what does christianity have to do with it?
[18:52] (Harsen) astrodog, Infact, the surge just got up to full capacity and already they've made 8 out of 18 goals.
[18:52] (Litium-) feeding the poor and healing the sick is the foundation of christianity, but thats a diff matter
[18:53] (Harsen) They need to give the general the time he needs to try to turn things around.
[18:53] (Viniceos) astrodog, Jesus said you should only do to others what you'd want others doing to yourself
[18:53] (Litium-) Harsen the 8 out of 18 is a bullshit talking point and you know it
[18:53] (astrodog) Vinic: And I care what Jesus said... why, exactly?
[18:53] (Litium-) Harsen: you could've had the same number 3 years ago
[18:53] (astrodog) Hars: What 8 goals have they accomplished, and what 10 remain?
[18:53] (Jakyl) the acceptance of Jesus as their personal saviour is the foundation of Christianity.
[18:53] (Harsen) astrodog, You can look that up.
[18:54] (Harsen) Litium-, Declaring the troop surge as failure days after it got up to full strength is cheap and intellectually dishonest.
[18:54] (astrodog) Hars: Yes, yes I can. But your statement doesn't mean much unless you provide that kind of information.
[18:54] (Viniceos) Jakyl, the acceptance of Jesus as the son of god and absolute source of truth is the foundation of christianism
[18:54] (Harsen) astrodog, No, it means that of the goals set at the beginning of the troop surge, they have completed 8 of them.
[18:54] (Viniceos) Jakyl, if you dont agree with Jesus' opinions, you're not a christian
[18:54] (Harsen) astrodog, That means something.
[18:55] (astrodog) Harsen: Its not really a measure of anything, though.
[18:55] (JanetB) saying the surge is not working .. after it has really started after 2 weeks and the plan is 5 and 1/2 months is a load of garbage and libs know it
[18:55] (Viniceos) it's remarkable how far you'll go to protect your own nationalist agenda and still claim to be devoted christians
[18:55] (astrodog) Vinic: I'm an atheist.
[18:55] (JanetB) esp when half the benchmarks are met, and since when do you fight a war based on bench marks
[18:55] (Viniceos) i wish i was enough of a prick to behave like that, it would make life much easier
[18:56] (JanetB) stupitidy! there is only ONE bench mark and that is to win
[18:56] (astrodog) Janet: Almost every war is fought based on benchmarks.
[18:56] (Jakyl) Viniceos: you are doing a pretty good job of it already
[18:56] (astrodog) Janet: That is, infact, how war is fought. When we accomplish X, we move on to Y.
[18:57] (astrodog) Janet: Winning, in and of itself, isn't really one of the purposes of a war.
[18:57] (JanetB) astrodog.. misssions are accomplished yes
[18:57] (JanetB) not "bench" marks
[18:57] (astrodog) Janet: Not even missions. Specific tactical, or strategic goals.
[18:58] (astrodog) Those goals pretty much define how a war is planned, and executed.
[18:58] (JanetB) but you do not say if this is not done in this time we are leaving
[18:58] (astrodog) Janet: Yes, actually, you do.
[18:58] (RktScntst) Could you imagine, WWII.. where every month, the media screamed "When will we win??"
[18:58] (JanetB) you work untill that mission is accomplished and then you move to the next mission
[18:58] (JanetB) RktScntst, actually they did
[18:59] (Jakyl) mornin kali
[18:59] (Harsen) astrodog, No, its a measure of the some of the goals they've put out, however I will concede that many of the 8 out of 18 goals have been political and not military
[18:59] (Jakyl) egad, the game is on.
[18:59] (Kaliuna) jak - hi and all that goes with it
[18:59] (astrodog) Janet: Not really. After a period of time has elapsed, it may be more benificial to abandon the original goal, and apply those assets to the accomplishment of some other goal.
[18:59] (Harsen) astrodog, However, as previously stated, the 18 goals were set as a measure of the effectiveness of the new troop surge strategy, which is still in its infancy. To kill it now would be folly.
[19:00] (Harsen) But, it is integral to American and Israeli security in the future to not fail in Iraq.
[19:00] (JanetB) astrodog, the commanders may look at that mission and say we are changing how we are doing it, because they have come up with a better way, but in the end, it is the same goal
[19:00] (astrodog) Harsen: Not really. If we do fail there, we can always bomb it to hell in a couple of years, and try again.
[19:01] (JanetB) and that is not running away, like a 2 year old and taking your toys and going home
[19:01] (redfish) al gore was eating polar bear
[19:01] (astrodog) Janet: No, the commanders will often abandon a mission entirely, if the intermediate goals are not met.
[19:01] (Kaliuna) This Dem thing tonight is nothing but a sham anyway --
[19:01] (Harsen) astrodog, the govenrment there wont' be the problem, if we fail there and it becomes a depressed or failed state, its a nesting ground for people who aren't easy to find and bomb, like Al-Qaeda.
[19:01] (JanetB) oh yeah, go back and get more people killed
[19:01] (JanetB) yeah thats a good idea
[19:01] (astrodog) For example, say we want to have some aircraft support a ground operation, that's occuring at a specific time.
[19:01] (RktScntst) Harsen: DC mayor has appealed Parker V Wash DC to the USSC.. That is the first time, a US district appeals court has thrown out a gun-law, based upon violation of the second amendment. [ and not other reasons ]
[19:01] (Harsen) astrodog, we can always bomb their government again, thats no problem. The real problem is the potential for terror networks to take root there.
[19:01] (Jakyl) Kaliuna: showmanship replacing statesmanship
[19:01] (Viniceos) astrodog, you'd better hurry, cause the second iran gets its filthy hands on some russian wmds, you'll chicken out
[19:01] (Harsen) RktScntst, Fantastic.
[19:02] (astrodog) If we realize that the aircraft cannot reach the area in which they are needed, at the correct time, a commander may abort the flight.
[19:02] (Kaliuna) Jak - of course - the surge had't really gotten started -- and ole REID was out saying it failed - before troops were even there
[19:02] (bud-) Gore and his guests at the weekend ceremony dined on redfish - arguably one of the world's most threatened fish species.
[19:02] (Kaliuna) They were to receive a report in Sept -- but nooo Dems gotta play little games
[19:02] (JanetB) astrodog.. but they will set it up again, and try if it is essential
[19:02] (Viniceos) iran + wmds = friendship between iran and the usa
[19:02] * SonOfSpam wonders why some kid is poking my dog with a stick
[19:02] (Jakyl) Kaliuna: this is what disgusts me the most. playing politics with our soldiers lives.
[19:03] (astrodog) Janet: Set what up again?
[19:03] (Jakyl) I will never vote for a democrat again.
[19:03] (JanetB) Kaliuna, they do NOT want the report, cause the report will be good and they know it
[19:03] (Jakyl) I could not love with myself.
[19:03] (Harsen) Viniceos, No. Iran + WMDs = The region, and world, becoming a helluva lot more dangerous.
[19:03] (Jakyl) I could not live with myself.
[19:03] (Jakyl) love, either :P
[19:03] (Viniceos) Harsen, agreed
[19:03] (Harsen) Which is why we must not allow them to come into possession of said weapons.
[19:03] (Kaliuna) Janet -- I know that -- the DEMS don't want the report - they don't like hearing that there have been some great accomplishments already --
[19:04] (astrodog) Janet: Either the aircraft were there at the correct time, or they weren't. After that time is passed, there may be no need for the aircraft, and they will be reapplied to some other goal.
[19:04] (redfish) jakyl politics is fun
[19:04] * Jakyl pokes SonOfSpam's dog with a sharp stick
[19:04] (Jakyl) redfish: sometimes
[19:04] (astrodog) Janet: My point is that war is fought almost entirely by benchmarks. There's no other way to do it.
[19:04] (DeDannan) war is peace
[19:05] * Harsen spooges on DeDannan
[19:05] (WyldOcsar) in war there is no substitute for victory.
[19:05] * Jakyl burns DeDannan's copy of 1984
[19:05] (JanetB) war is tatics and objectives
[19:05] (Kaliuna) There is suppose to be some website -- blogofwar -- not sure if that is correct term - of stuff from our troops - things accomplished - etc.
[19:05] * redfish hands harsen a ceremonial badger
[19:05] (JanetB) tactics change objectives do not
[19:05] (bud-) peace is patriotic
[19:05] (WyldOcsar) war is hell
[19:05] (bud-) telling the truth is a revolutionary act
[19:05] (astrodog) Janet: If half of the landing ships at Normandy had to be sent home, due to a severe storm, do you think they would have landed the other half, knowing that it wasn't enough men and equipment to hold a beachhead?
[19:06] (JanetB) WyldOcsar, yes it is
[19:06] (Harsen) Congressional Democrats have the power to end the war in Iraq.
[19:06] (redfish) wyldoscar first you have to define victory
[19:06] (Harsen) They just refuse to.
[19:06] (bud-) hmm what other bumper stickers have i seen recently
[19:06] (Harsen) They're evil imperialists.
[19:06] (DeDannan) Jakyl likes to burn books :)
[19:06] (Harsen) Like BOOSH.
[19:06] (Viniceos) the us could have kept iraq under surveillance forever, with the UN backing them up, and keeping an eye on iran at the same time.
[19:06] (redfish) harsen accept my ceremonial badger
[19:06] (JanetB) astrodog... and do you remember town, arnhime (SP) I think that was the name
[19:07] (JanetB) later known as battle of the buldge
[19:07] (Jakyl) astrodog: depends. if it had been the juno ang gold turned back we could have won it anyway. ):)
[19:07] (Viniceos) somehow they've successfuly screwed EVERYTHING up
[19:07] (WyldOcsar) redfish: that quote: "there is no substitute for victory" was from gen. macarthur, I dont know if I totally understand what he meant.
[19:07] (JanetB) and do you think they would not have gone back to normandy? if there had been a storm?
[19:07] (DeDannan) Arnheim is in Holland
[19:08] (Harsen) redfish k
[19:08] (Jakyl) oerpation Market Garden
[19:08] (Jakyl) operation, even
[19:08] (JanetB) as I said, I do not remember the name of the town
[19:08] (astrodog) Janet: Who knows? They might have landed somewhere else... or just pushed troops up from Africa, depending on the circumstances.
[19:08] (JanetB) it was later known as battle of the buldge
[19:08] (redfish) baby badger, http://www.secretworld.org/image/high_resolution/badger5.jpg
[19:08] (DeDannan) Battle of the Bulge took place in Belgium
[19:08] (astrodog) The failure to meet the benchmark would have completely altered the goals of the forces involved.
[19:08] (JanetB) astrodog, again the objective is the same. to win
[19:09] (astrodog) Janet: Winning is not an objective.
[19:09] (JanetB) yes it is
[19:09] (astrodog) It is simply the accomplishment of ones goals.
[19:09] (JanetB) oy vey
[19:09] (Kaliuna) If I were GW - I'd shut down the congress - turn off their lights and kick them out --
[19:09] (Jakyl) Ardennes forest
[19:09] (astrodog) Janet: And those goals may change, for any number of reasons, at any given time.
[19:10] (JanetB) winning is not everythingk winning is the only thing
[19:10] (astrodog) Winning isn't anything, in and of itself.
[19:10] (JanetB) winning again is the only thing
[19:10] (WyldOcsar) the objective is ending up with a better world as a result, if you kill off three quarters of the population for a lasting peace, you fucked up.
[19:10] (Kaliuna) Put out reports of treason - on every stinker in there....
[19:10] (astrodog) Janet: Can you define "winning"?
[19:10] (JanetB) astrodog.. oh we go to war to lose
[19:10] (JanetB) hahahah
[19:10] (DeDannan) damn, now she's quoting dead football coaches lol
[19:10] (JanetB) yeah, the other side loses
[19:10] (astrodog) Janet: We don't go to war to win, or lose.
[19:11] (Kaliuna) astro - the oppositve of "cutting and running"
[19:11] (astrodog) We go to war to accomplish a specific set of goals.
[19:11] (astrodog) Janet: How do we determine when they've lost?
[19:11] (JanetB) what do we go for? just to watch people die?
[19:11] (MudFlap) When you goto war without winning in mind, you are screwed.
[19:11] (JanetB) astrodog.. the other side wins
[19:11] (JanetB) hahahah
[19:11] (astrodog) Janet: Eh?
[19:11] (Jakyl) and now we quote vince l;ombardi.
[19:11] (JanetB) is this a game to you or what?
[19:11] (Jakyl) oy vey for sure
[19:11] (WyldOcsar) thats what barry goldwater said. lets go to win or get out.
[19:11] (astrodog) Self referencing definitions are foolish.
[19:11] (astrodog) :P
[19:11] (astrodog) Define winning in Iraq.
[19:11] (MudFlap) Committing American troops to a war without the willpower to win is asking for disaster.
[19:12] (JanetB) Jakyl, yeah I think thats a great quote
[19:12] (JanetB) astrodog... when the country is stable and able to stand on their own
[19:12] (astrodog) Janet: There we go.
[19:12] (JanetB) they are not yet able... we may be there 60 years and of we are so what
[19:13] (astrodog) The goal is not "Winning", the goal is to "Allow the country to be stable, and stand on its own."
[19:13] (JanetB) thats winning
[19:13] (MudFlap) No
[19:13] (astrodog) That goal might change, depending on circumstances.
[19:13] (MudFlap) standin on their own means nothing to us
[19:13] (MudFlap) democracy must take hold
[19:13] (JanetB) well able to defend themselves
[19:13] (DeDannan) getting 21 in blackjack is "winning"
[19:13] (DeDannan) a royal flush in poker...that's "winning"
[19:13] (Jakyl) not if the dealer gets it, too
[19:14] (astrodog) We may decide, for example, that a democracy in Iraq is not in our best interests... in which case, our goal of a democracy there might change.
[19:14] (MudFlap) if Democracy doesn't take hold in the middle east, then we must goto Plan B. The democrats are *really* not going to like Plan B.
[19:14] (DeDannan) MudFlap, what's Plan B?
[19:14] (MudFlap) astrodog: democracy combats extremism
[19:14] (MudFlap) DeDannan: about 300 million dead muslims
[19:14] (DeDannan) ah..
[19:14] (MudFlap) like it or not
[19:14] (JanetB) what we would rather have an terrorists goverment?
[19:14] (DeDannan) well..that's crazy
[19:15] (astrodog) Mud: There is of course, the distinct possibility that we don't really want a democracy there, as it may act against our interests.
[19:15] (JanetB) yeah thats working real well in Iran
[19:15] (MudFlap) DeDannan: it's us or them
[19:15] (DeDannan) MudFlap, nevermind
[19:15] (astrodog) Janet: There are other options. A US-backed dictator, among others.
[19:15] (DeDannan) sorry I asked
[19:15] (MudFlap) astrodog: versus ?
[19:15] (MudFlap) astrdog: right
[19:15] (MudFlap) whatever it is, it must combat extremism
[19:15] (JanetB) yeah that worked real well before too, huh?)
[19:15] (DeDannan) gee..can we have a Shah in Iraq now?
[19:16] (DeDannan) bring back a Hashemite King?
[19:16] (Jakyl) we may end up with one
[19:16] (WyldOcsar) we could give the iraqi government the latest and greatest high tech weapons, they would be used against the minority, not to bring peace to the region.
[19:16] (Jakyl) I hope not, but it may end up that way
[19:16] (DeDannan) hey..why not restore the Caliphate?
[19:16] (astrodog) Janet: Lets say we're faced with an Iraqi population that attempts to elect extremists. Should we allow that?
[19:16] (SweetLeaf) heh this Mexican guy says he dont understand white people putting their old parents in wharehouses old ppl homes
[19:16] (Jakyl) but if the democrats have their way its going to end up another islamofascist hellhole
[19:16] (SweetLeaf) I dont either
[19:17] (JanetB) well we allowed it in iran and in syria and in palenstine
[19:17] (SweetLeaf) We already have Londonistan
[19:17] (astrodog) Janet: So, should we allow it again?
[19:17] (Libertin1) .help
[19:17] (JanetB) astrodog... well if we leave, that may very well happen
[19:17] (astrodog) If the people vote in extremists, should the United States recognize that... or overthrow the elected government?
[19:17] (JanetB) and yeah the libs would love it
[19:18] (DeDannan) we will leave....eventually...
[19:18] (DeDannan) there is no "if"
[19:18] (SweetLeaf) look at what the pals did half voted hamass
[19:18] (JanetB) yeah, but that may be in 60 years
[19:18] (astrodog) Janet: So?
[19:18] (JanetB) so?
[19:18] (WyldOcsar) we will leave when there is snow covering all the minarettes in baghdad.
[19:19] (astrodog) If the Iraqi populace, at the next election, elected Sadr, and AQ in Iraq to government... should the United States allow that... or overthrow the elected government?
[19:19] (JanetB) I do not belive the people of Iraq will do that, they have given up a lot for there right to vote
[19:19] (SweetLeaf) if we dont keep trying to win an allie in Iraq we are fucked
[19:19] (astrodog) Janet: And if they vote for extremists?
[19:19] (JanetB) I think we should over throw, iran and syria and palenstine
[19:19] (astrodog) What should we do?
[19:19] (JanetB) so... yeah, I would say we over throw it
[19:19] (DeDannan) if we don't succeed..we run the risk of failure
[19:20] (DeDannan) that's another great quote
[19:20] (SweetLeaf) finally the military says the suni's are starting to come around and the dimocraps still dont like it
[19:20] (astrodog) Janet: Alright. Under those circumstances, what kind of government should the United States attempt to put in place?
[19:20] (Jakyl) remember, with Democrats failure is an options.
[19:20] (Jakyl) an option
[19:20] (astrodog) As I see it, the only option remaining to us, would be a US-backed dictatorship.
[19:20] (SweetLeaf) the suni's dont want ubl and his buddies
[19:20] (JanetB) I still say a democracy
[19:20] (SweetLeaf) now it time to get rid o Sadr
[19:20] (JanetB) you have to teach them, till they get it right
[19:21] (astrodog) Janet: If the people are electing extremists, because they WANT extremists to run things... another election won't help.
[19:21] (JanetB) astrodog.. you are dealing in maybe's, how about dealing in what is
[19:21] (JanetB) they have not elected extrimists
[19:22] (Kaliuna) astro -- you are really very 'negative' and a bit off the wall. Once you have tasted freedom you will not let it go -- Iraqis now have freedoms - you think they'd just give them up?
[19:22] (SweetLeaf) Why are we allowing the iraq border to be crossed from syria to Iraq so the kutz fucks can kill and stir up trouble
[19:22] (JanetB) so lets deal with what is not with what might me
[19:22] (astrodog) Kali: Who says they'd give them up.
[19:22] (Kaliuna) SL -- allow - bad choice of words
[19:22] (JanetB) be
[19:22] (Kaliuna) astro - you implied it
[19:22] (SweetLeaf) well you know what I mean
[19:22] (astrodog) They might elect a government that supports a very free Iraq... that also wants to blow the US off the map.
[19:23] (Kaliuna) SL -- we have a border here - (several in fact) - why aren't we patrolling them? Lots of bad dudes are freely crossing them too... they might not be shooting and killing at the moment -- but who knows about tomorrow? or next day?
[19:23] (astrodog) Look at Pakistan. The last thing we'd want there at the moment, is a democractically elected government.
[19:24] (WyldOcsar) its shia killing sunni, sunni killing shia, al queda killing people, sunnis killing americans. the iraqi parliament demanding a two month vacation.
[19:24] (Kaliuna) Wyld - one month
[19:24] (WyldOcsar) sorry one month
[19:24] (DeDannan) heh..just one month
[19:24] (Kaliuna) Wyld -- as if our politicians should have any say in how much time off -- just look at all the time off THEY take
[19:24] (DeDannan) when the going gets tough..the tough go on vacation
[19:25] (Harsen) Israeli Newspapers were first discovered in 1967 in Israel. The Arabs were angered that stories about them weren't at the very front, so they prepared to attack Israel in order to make it so. Israel attacked first and won the war not only militarily, but by refusing to remove the golf tournament coverage from the front page.
[19:26] (JanetB) august is a holy month
[19:26] * Libertin1 is now known as Libertine
[19:26] (JanetB) our goverment takes more vacation time than teachers, you do not see them staying in session for anything
[19:27] (WyldOcsar) its not like we are in iraq helping them fight off an huge invasion force from iran or someplace else. its mostly iraqis killing iraqis.
[19:27] (SweetLeaf) wow a new closer cool no rerun
[19:28] (Kaliuna) SL -- CLoser been new for three weeks now :)
[19:28] (Jakyl) the amount of time congress takes for vacations is a little low on my priority list at the moment.
[19:28] (Kaliuna) Janet - well except when the silly Dems want to make themselves look good - with one of these all night slumber parties
[19:28] (JanetB) Kaliuna, if I was a senator, I would just not attend
[19:29] (SweetLeaf) Kali I cant keep up with them all
[19:29] (JanetB) and tell them all to have a gooed night hahah
[19:29] (Kaliuna) Janet -- oh they plan to get on tv and bash Bush all night --
[19:29] (JanetB) Kaliuna, of course
[19:29] (Jakyl) JanetB: that is how bad laws get made.
[19:29] (JanetB) let them, the reps do not have to go
[19:29] (Kaliuna) SL - oh well it just started its new summer thing three weeks ago.
[19:30] (Kaliuna) Janet -- and if they don't go then the DEMS will be lambasting them all over - claiming they don't care about people - yadda yadda --
[19:30] (JanetB) pulling and all nighter does not get laws made, they still have to take a vote
[19:30] (JanetB) Kaliuna... they do that anyway
[19:30] (Jakyl) !?
[19:30] (JanetB) whats new
[19:30] (Harsen) In the mid 1980s, Gore invented the internets for unknown purposes. That's why Google was invented; each search steals a bit of your mind by distracting you from what your gut has to say.
[19:31] (DeDannan) the only gut we need to listen to is Michael Chertoff's
[19:31] (WyldOcsar) it worked for jimmy stewart in Mr. Smith goes to Washington, but he was a republican in the movie.
[19:31] (Kaliuna) Janet - of course its not new - but by the GOP being there - they can demand time to counter the Dems and make the Dems look like fools they are acting like
[19:31] (Harsen) I prefer to listen to Emeril's gut.
[19:31] (Harsen) BAM!
[19:31] (JanetB) Kaliuna.. and no one is going to watch
[19:31] * Jakyl pokes Harsen's gut with a sharp stick.
[19:31] (Libertine) i stopped listening to my gut.. it only made me fat.
[19:31] (Kaliuna) Janet -- might be surprised... who is "catching some of it"
[19:32] (DeDannan) Mikey has a magic gut
[19:32] (JanetB) Kaliuna... well I am sure not, I hear enough of them on the daily media
[19:32] (DeDannan) it will replace the color coded fear levels
[19:32] (JanetB) I already know what they are going to cry about
[19:32] (WyldOcsar) I dont like emeril. that lady who does every day italian does some interesting food sometimes.
[19:32] (Kaliuna) Janet and that is about all we will hear on radio - tv - newspapers - for some time to come
[19:32] (JanetB) I am not going to ruin a perfectly nice evening listening to them
[19:33] (DeDannan) WyldOcsar, is that the one who likes showing off her cleavage?
[19:33] (WyldOcsar) maybe
[19:33] (Jakyl) There are times when I understand why the founders didn't let women vote.
[19:33] (DoctorJ) Back to the 18th Century, I say!
[19:33] (DeDannan) Jakyl, or darkies!
[19:34] (JanetB) Jakyl... they have to have a vote, to have a vote they have to call for it, then the reps go in and vote no
[19:34] (Kaliuna) Janet -- and that is how they want it to go -- they'll try to vote it through because GOP isn't there -- to keep an eye on them
[19:34] (JanetB) they do not have to stay on the floor all night
[19:35] (JanetB) Kaliuna, they have to allow time to get there to vote
[19:35] (Kaliuna) they have cots set up in lobby areas -- wonder who will be sleeping in them -- alone
[19:35] (JanetB) they can not say.. ok we are voting in 5 min, there would not even be enough dems there for that
[19:35] (Jakyl) looks like all 176 are dead in that Brazil crash.
[19:35] (DoctorJ) Will Rep. Vitter be hiring a friend to share his cot?
[19:35] (Kaliuna) wonder if they will play musical cots...
[19:36] (Kaliuna) Jak - ya think so -- isn't that 2nd one this year? or 3rd?
[19:36] (Jakyl) I see DoctorJ has been reading the dailykos talking points.
[19:36] (Kaliuna) DocJ -- Senators - not REPS
[19:37] (DoctorJ) Hardly. C'mon... if you can't laugh at a congressman who likes hookers without seeing it in a partisan way, you have to lighten up.
[19:37] (Jakyl) Tuesday's crash came 10 months after Brazil's deadliest crash, a September collision between a Gol Aerolinhas Inteligentes SA Boeing 737 and an executive jet over the Amazon rainforest.
[19:38] (Kaliuna) DocJ -- has nothing to do with it -- talking difference between HOUSE members and SENATE members
[19:38] (Jakyl) A federal court in February briefly banned takeoffs and landings of large jets at the airport because of safety concerns at the airport, which handles huge volumes of flights for the massive domestic Brazilian air travel market.
[19:38] (Jakyl) But an appeals court overruled the ban, saying it was too harsh because it would have severe economic ramifications and that there were not enough safety concerns to prevent the planes from landing and taking off the airport.
[19:38] (DoctorJ) Kaliuna I know, I know. I was just making a joke.
[19:38] (DeDannan) Brazil's air safety record is....lackluster
[19:38] * Broly is now known as fundie4ev
[19:38] * fundie4ev is now known as fundy4eve
[19:39] (Kaliuna) DocJ - then make it about some of the Senators -- they have plenty of hookers ... or ahh aides --
[19:39] * fundy4eve is now known as fundy4eva
[19:39] * fundy4eva is now known as Broly
[19:40] (Viniceos) DeDannan, bullsht
[19:40] (DoctorJ) Kaliuna Fair enough. Maybe the escorts will just walk up and down the halls of Congress turning tricks. Makes their business more efficient...
[19:40] (Harsen) Did Bitter resign?
[19:40] (Jakyl) obama and clinton say the suporeme court is engaging in a concerted effort to roll back women's rights.
[19:40] (Kaliuna) DocJ - they can bed hop ....
[19:41] (Jakyl) Harsen: nope. no need
[19:41] (bizinichi) hello
[19:41] (Harsen) Jakyl, lol in what area?
[19:41] (bizinichi) does anybody care about ron paul
[19:41] (DeDannan) Harsen, naw...gawd forgaveded him
[19:41] (Viniceos) DeDannan, we had 3 big accidents, including this one
[19:41] (Harsen) re supreme court
[19:41] (Kaliuna) Jak - what would hillary know about that - according to Edwards wife she acts like a man instead of a woman
[19:41] (Harsen) bizinichi, nope.
[19:41] (Viniceos) DeDannan, and one of them was caused by a freaking us private aircraft
[19:41] (Jakyl) Harsen: because they upheld the ban on late-term abortion
[19:41] (Harsen) lol
[19:41] (Jakyl) Harsen: they clearly didn't read roe v wade.
[19:42] (Harsen) of co urse, they'll never come out and overtly support the PBA
[19:42] (Harsen) Since the vast vast majority of Americans are against that
[19:42] (Kaliuna) Oh - big news -- OSHA has backed off of the "ammo is explosives" bit --
[19:42] (Harsen) Kaliuna, Good
[19:42] (Harsen) But surely, they will stand up and and pontificate about the supreme court and their error, indirectly supporting partial-birth abortion
[19:43] (Harsen) Sigh
[19:43] (Kaliuna) BUT wait -- the DEMS are trying to push through a Fed Tax on Cigars -- $10 a cigar....
[19:43] (Harsen) lol
[19:44] (JanetB) here in az, they put cigar cafes out of business!
[19:44] (US^Male) can Clinton afford a cigar tax?\
[19:44] (DoctorJ) ouch
[19:44] (Kaliuna) US - he gets them freebies
[19:44] (US^Male) with monica
[19:44] (Kaliuna) AND -- for cigarettes -- $1.00 a pack
[19:44] (DeDannan) don't smoke...don't care
[19:45] (Jakyl) and they are tryint to put a 61 cent a pack on cigarettes to fund some childrens health act.
[19:45] (Jakyl) again with "for the chirrun"
[19:45] (DeDannan) make it $100/pack
[19:45] (Harsen) The worst thing the Democrats could do
[19:45] (Harsen) in terms of deficit reduction
[19:45] (JanetB) I am sick of them using smoking as a way to fund "childrens" illnesses
[19:45] (Harsen) would be to raise taxes.
[19:46] (Libertine) hrm.. Harry Potter Book 6 was leaked to bittorrent today
[19:46] (Libertine) that.. will be messy.,
[19:46] (US^Male) yeah why should govt encourage smoking by spending the tax on kiddie care?
[19:49] (Jakyl) Libertine: they'll blame Amazon
[19:49] (Libertine) er.. book 7.
[19:49] (JanetB) they put a tax on cigs here that was supposed to go for helping you stop smoking, and guess what, you get a pamphlet... nothing of substance that will help you quit
[19:49] (US^Male) plus now it is dependent upon your damaged lungs
[19:49] (Libertine) someone took photos of each page
[19:49] (Kaliuna) Wasn't AMazon who leaked it - was a typesetter
[19:49] (Libertine) and put them all in a torrent..
[19:49] (DoctorJ) JanetB You want the government to help you quit? What happened to personal responsibility and not expecting the government to solve your problems?
[19:49] (JanetB) DoctorJ.. they put an .80 tax on every pack of cigs.. so yeah
[19:49] (US^Male) personal responsibility == pay for your own kid's medical care
[19:49] (US^Male) not with taxes
[19:49] (JanetB) they can help those that want to quit, quit, since THAT is what the TAX was enacted for!
[19:49] (Libertine) hehe i just downloaded HP Book 7.
[19:49] (JanetB) where?
[19:49] (Libertine) it's hard to read tho
[19:49] (Jakyl) Libertine fires up his OCR software
[19:49] (Libertine) it's so faded looking
[19:49] (JanetB) Libertine.. whats the url?
[19:49] (L0c0) US^Male: what about when you are responsible, have a job, have healthcare and your healthcare provider denies the medical procedures needed?
[19:49] (Libertine) janet: http://thepiratebay.org/tor/3744050/Harry_Potter_and_the_Deathly_Hallows_--_Photos_up_to_Page_495http://thepiratebay.org/tor/3744050/Harry_Potter_and_the_Deathly_Hallows_--_Photos_up_to_Page_495
[19:49] (JanetB) thanks
[19:50] (DoctorJ) L0c0 How irresponsible to get sick in the first place!
[19:50] (L0c0) US^Male: what about when you are responsible, have a job, have healthcare and your healthcare provider denies the medical procedures needed?
[19:50] (DeDannan) only leftists get sick
[19:50] (US^Male) hmm
[19:50] (L0c0) DeDannan: :-P
[19:51] (Libertine) that torrents ends with chapter 24; i think it's missing the last few chapters.
[19:51] (DeDannan) L0c0, healthcare provider=insurance company?
[19:51] (L0c0) that's what i meant
[19:51] (L0c0) thanks
[19:51] (DeDannan) just checkin
[19:51] (US_Male) L0c0: what about it ?
[19:51] (bizinichi) why shouldnt i listen to michael moore and his movie sicko?
[19:51] (Jakyl) L0c0 you used to not screw up your digs. you feeling well?
[19:51] (DeDannan) well..everyone knows insurance companies know more than physicians when it comes to necessary medical care...
[19:52] (US_Male) L0c0: get a better healthcare provider
[19:52] (US_Male) or sue them
[19:52] (Jakyl) bizinichi: why would you?
[19:52] (L0c0) frivolous lawsuits!
[19:52] (JanetB) oh well then I willl have to wait till sat
[19:52] (US_Male) whichever is appropriate based on your case
[19:52] (US_Male) but now that you admit your lawsuit is frivoulous, you have no case
[19:53] (US_Male) big error
[19:53] (bizinichi) because i see highlights of the worst of the current healthcare system and the best highlights of the other systems and its very seductive
[19:53] (DeDannan) better healthcare provider...coverage denied! pre-existing condition etc etc...
[19:53] (US_Male) since you describe your laswuit as frivolous, then pay for it yourself
[19:53] (DeDannan) so tough shit..looks like little johnny's going to die...better luck next time
[19:53] (US_Male) die Johnny die
[19:54] (e-Hernick) L0c0: big mistake, el loco... with one frivolous lawsuit on your record, you won't get insurance ever again, at least not at rates you can afford...
[19:54] (DeDannan) ain't that america...
[19:54] (DeDannan) little pink houses for you and me....
[19:54] (e-Hernick) suing a megacorporation is the surest way to get yourself in shit
[19:54] (US_Male) Johnny's mommy & daddy should take care of Johnny
[19:54] (US_Male) or, we could send his bills to those who feel that is not fair
[19:55] (e-Hernick) US_Male: what do you think about the people who get sued by the RIAA and MPAA
[19:55] (DeDannan) johnny's mommy and daddy thought that's what their health insurance was for...
[19:55] (DeDannan) but mommy and daddy didn't read the fine print...
[19:55] (smacksy) statistically the easiest way to beat the odds on being poverty stricken......finish high school.......wait until you're married until you have children.
[19:55] (US_Male) e-Hernick: I think they got sued. What do you think ?
[19:55] (e-Hernick) US_Male: yes...
[19:55] (Jakyl``) smacksy: tru dat.
[19:55] (DeDannan) "If we decide not to cover it...you're screwed. Thanks for playing and have a nice day"
[19:55] * Jakyl`` is now known as Jakyl
[19:56] (US_Male) I think everyone should get a BIG house, and it should be supplied by the government
[19:56] (US_Male) and it should never be pink
[19:56] (TheTailor) With a view
[19:56] (Libertine) smacksy: learning a skill, also helps
[19:56] (gopp) hi
[19:57] (gopp) hi TheTailor US^Male Libertine
[19:57] (DeDannan) smacksy, not getting sick is the best way
[19:57] (smacksy) US-Male, what gives, you the surrogate twobar or something?
[19:57] (TheTailor) I'm watchin' you gopp
[19:57] (gopp) ?????
[19:57] (gopp) WTF
[19:57] (Libertine) if government housing were painted; maybe it would shame people..
[19:57] (TheTailor) I heard the story, don't play dumb with me!
[19:57] * bud- logging gopp
[19:57] (US_Male) smacksy: why would you say that
[19:57] (Libertine) like pink with green stripes..
[19:57] (TheTailor) grrr
[19:57] (gopp) story ????
[19:57] (smacksy) gopp has a HOT sister!!!!
[19:58] * smacksy is now known as yowz||
[19:58] (US_Male) govt housing should be pink, with orange polka dots
[19:58] (gopp) I just got on, what could have I done
[19:58] (e-Hernick) I think every citizen should be guaranteed a government lodging unit, a government computer with access to government-approved audio and video entertainment and communications system, as well as free government chow. I call for this system to be called "the dole" and dispensed to those who wish to live on it.
[19:58] (US_Male) or green stripes
[19:58] (DeDannan) can I get a no-bid contract to paint them?
[19:58] (US_Male) no we need three bids, and we take the highest
[19:59] (e-Hernick) This would create a massive market for construction of government lodging units, megatowers packed tightly with one another and linked by air bridges, self-contained government cities meant to contain the homeless and keep them entertained.
[19:59] (DeDannan) oh goodie! just like Halliburton!
[19:59] (Libertine) hrm.. so vitters is not resigning?
[19:59] (US_Male) but you can make your bid
[19:59] (Libertine) kinda suprised.
[19:59] (DeDannan) Libertine, course not...gawd forgave him
[20:00] (TheTailor) Libertine, who did he hurt?
[20:00] (DeDannan) that makes it allllll better
[20:00] (US_Male) he hurt Libertine!
[20:00] (gopp) what have I done
[20:00] (Libertine) Tailor: nobody, prostitution is a victimless crime right? :)
[20:00] (yowz||) e-hernick, they had those in chicago...called project housing
[20:00] (Libertine) Tailor: tho im suprised his supporters don't call him a hypocrite for attacking clinton than going and sticking his wick in a hooker.
[20:00] (Libertine) than/then
[20:00] (US_Male) hookers should be legal. But your wife should be able to divorce you
[20:01] (Libertine) US_Male: works for me.
[20:01] (gopp) TAilor
[20:01] (gopp) ???
[20:01] (DeDannan) Libertine, bah...Newtie did the same thing
[20:01] (e-Hernick) US_Male: so you endorse prostitution?
[20:01] (US_Male) and it should be your fault if it is not a no-fault state
[20:01] (US_Male) e-Hernick: yes.
[20:01] (Libertine) DeDannan: aw, now lets not talk bad about the Newtster ;)
[20:01] (bud`) well apparently larry flynt is working on 20 other lawmakers affairs
[20:01] (e-Hernick) US_Male: do you spit on the moral values endorsed by the religious right?
[20:01] (bud`) d-day
[20:01] (TheTailor) Libertine, well Clinton was about lying to a sitting federal judge, not a blow job as the left paints it.
[20:01] (US_Male) e-Hernick: I'm not sure, what are they ? Is it different from the Religious Left ?
[20:02] (Libertine) Tailor: oh please, it was a witchhunt.
[20:02] (US_Male) LOL
[20:02] (Libertine) Tailor: i really dislike clinton too, and even I think that.
[20:02] (gopp) TAilor ??????
[20:02] (TheTailor) Libertine, you can't hunt perjury
[20:02] (Libertine) clinton was.. scum.
[20:02] (e-Hernick) US_Male: the religious left is a congregation of secular humanists who call themselves liberal christians, so yes, there is a serious difference between them and the religious right.
[20:02] (US_Male) poor Bill !
[20:02] (US_Male) e-Hernick: specify the difference in their "morals"
[20:02] (DeDannan) yep..Scooter found that out :)
[20:02] (e-Hernick) US_Male: they believe in promiscuous sex and abortion-on-demand
[20:03] (US_Male) e-Hernick: who's "they" ?
[20:03] (e-Hernick) US_Male: the religious left
[20:03] (yowz||) US-Male wants hillary to sit on his face so he can guess her weight
[20:03] (US_Male) e-Hernick: Can you document this ?
[20:03] (e-Hernick) US_Male: yes, for a modest fee
[20:03] (US_Male) e-Hernick: then I shall assume you made it up.
[20:04] (DeDannan) All fees are payable in advance
[20:04] (DeDannan) no credit
[20:04] (e-Hernick) US_Male: hey, you were the one to mention the religious left, endorsing their existence with every fiber of your being
[20:04] (TheTailor) gopp, don't address me you...you...
[20:04] (TheTailor) channel hacker!
[20:04] (US_Male) For a slightly larger fee, I shall prove you made it up
[20:04] * TheTailor bops gopp with a nerf sledgehammer
[20:04] (e-Hernick) US_Male: the logs don't lie
[20:04] (DeDannan) Fees are non-negotiable
[20:04] (US_Male) e-Hernick: not at all, I simply asked you what is the difference between the Religious Left and the Religious Right
[20:04] (redfish) usmale you owe me money
[20:05] (US_Male) e-Hernick: but clearly you don't know
[20:05] (TheTailor) US_Male, did you hear what gopp did
[20:05] (DeDannan) and must be paid in US currency
[20:05] (US_Male) TT no what did he do ?!?
[20:05] (e-Hernick) TheTailor: gopp did what??
[20:05] (Kaliuna) TT -- what he did it again?? oh my
[20:05] (TheTailor) See your messages
[20:05] (e-Hernick) yeah
[20:05] (e-Hernick) I got a message from him
[20:05] (DeDannan) oh lord..did he fart in the channel again?
[20:05] (e-Hernick) but I don't think it means anything
[20:05] (TheTailor) Bad gopp
[20:05] (TheTailor) baaaaaad
[20:05] (Libertine) US_Male: views on capital punishment?
[20:05] (US_Male) TT ....... omg...
[20:05] (US_Male) he did THAT?
[20:05] * TheTailor bops gopp with a nerf sledgehammer
[20:05] (US_Male) Libertine: what views ?
[20:06] (e-Hernick) I don't think he has the necessary skills to do real damage.
[20:06] (TheTailor) shhhh
[20:06] (Libertine) US: the religious left is more catholic than pro, the right is the reverse.
[20:06] (TheTailor) Just watch him
[20:06] (US_Male) oic
[20:06] (e-Hernick) But I could be wrong.
[20:06] (Libertine) US: catholics / anti-death penalty, etc.
[20:06] (US_Male) Libertine: well perhaps you can educate e-Hernick
[20:06] (US_Male) he seems not to know
[20:06] (e-Hernick) US_Male: BTW, are you a master crax0r?
[20:06] (US_Male) e-Hernick: never heard of that.
[20:06] (e-Hernick) US_Male: then you must not be one
[20:06] (US_Male) e-Hernick: I guess not.
[20:07] * Jakyl stabs qwest in the right eye
[20:07] (US_Male) e-Hernick: do you fear them ?
[20:07] * e-Hernick does
[20:07] (DeDannan) Libertine, also anti-abortion, anti gay marriage, anti-contraception...sounds pretty "right" to me
[20:07] (Kaliuna) Jak -- you need a diff server!!
[20:07] (TheTailor) e-Hernick, ask gopp, he knows allllllll about this hacking cracking stuff
[20:07] * TheTailor gives gopp a sidelong look
[20:07] (US_Male) Libertine: so these Catholics are more supportive of abortion then ?
[20:07] (e-Hernick) TheTailor: I don't know...
[20:07] (US_Male) even the the Pope comamnds them not to be
[20:07] (Libertine) US: hah..
[20:08] (US_Male) I mean, disopbeying the Pope, don't you go straight to Hell ?
[20:08] (US_Male) do not pass "Go"
[20:08] (e-Hernick) US_Male: those "catholics" are in reality crypto-humanists with a mantle of baby Jesus...
[20:08] (Jakyl) .
[20:08] (Libertine) US_Male: no, they can ask forgiveness.
[20:08] (e-Hernick) US_Male: just like you, in fact
[20:08] (WyldOcsar) the moral majority and the evangelicals vote over 80 percent republican and the jews vote over 80 percent democratic.
[20:08] (US_Male) e-Hernick: I'm a communist.
[20:08] (Libertine) US_Male: you just have to visit a priest, say some crap, and hit the donation plate on the way out.
[20:09] (e-Hernick) US_Male: what branch, are you a marxist, a leninist, a stalinist, or a putinist?
[20:09] (US_Male) Libertine: ohhh, so they don't really believe in following their "morals" ?
[20:09] (US_Male) hmm......
[20:09] (Libertine) US: modern religious flock...more ritualistic than anything else.
[20:09] (US_Male) well -- we have several Catholics who come to this channel and most of them seem to follow their morals
[20:09] (US_Male) they seem rather Republican in fact
[20:09] (US_Male) mostly
[20:09] (e-Hernick) US_Male: those are members of the religious right
[20:09] (e-Hernick) members of the religious left are democrats
[20:10] (Libertine) US: eh, i grew up in South Louisiana.. all the catholics I knew were dems
[20:10] (US_Male) e-Hernick: but Libertine said Catholics are Religous Left
[20:10] (e-Hernick) remember... leftist = democrat = liberal.... rightist = republican = conservative
[20:10] (redfish) usmale youre confusing me
[20:10] (US_Male) e-Hernick; are you caying Libertine is wrong ?
[20:10] (Libertine) US: if we're going to start looking at #politics a cross section of american politics; the libertarians would win more races ;)
[20:10] (e-Hernick) this is the basic equation of american politics
[20:10] (US_Male) *saying
[20:10] (WyldOcsar) whats interesting to me is that many evangelicals believe that the second coming cant occur unless israel remains a state and they support israel even though they believe if there is a second coming the jews are all going to hell.
[20:10] (Libertine) a / as a
[20:10] (DeDannan) dam bias lefits comunits!
[20:10] (US_Male) e-Hernick are you calling Libertine a liar ?? You bastard.....
[20:10] (e-Hernick) US_Male: uh?
[20:10] (US_Male) Libertine don't let him talk to you like that
[20:11] (Libertine) ::sniff:: i am such a liar..
[20:11] (gopp) wtf
[20:11] (gopp) I would never nor never